1
20
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Title
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Overseers of the Poor: Indentures of Apprenticeship
Description
An account of the resource
Series III is comprised of Rockingham County Indentures of Apprenticeship, which were formal contracts created by the overseers to bind poor or orphaned children to a "master" with who they would learn a trade. Their term generally lasted until the age of twenty-one for males and eighteen for females. Trades were typically determined by the apprentice's sex as well. Active labor and semi-skilled artisan positions were reserved for males, while females often served their term learning to sew, spin, knit, or domestic labor.<br /><br />For more information on the Overseers of the Poor collection, visit the "<a href="https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/erp/findingaids">Finding Aid</a>" tab in the menu above.
Creator
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The Overseers of the Poor of Rockingham County
Publisher
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JMU Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1766-1871
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This work has been identified as being free of known restrictions under copyright law, including all related and neighboring rights.
Format
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PDF
Identifier
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Osp003_001
Relation
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<a href="https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/erp/collections/show/11">Overseers of the Poor: Minutebooks and Correspondences</a>
Is Referenced By
A related resource that references, cites, or otherwise points to the described resource.
<a href="https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/erp/items/show/4525"> Overseers of the Poor Finding Aid</a>
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A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
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Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1823
Title
A name given to the resource
Indenture of Apprenticeship, Jacob Bryan to Jacob Yost
Description
An account of the resource
House joiner
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Overseers of the Poor
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JMU Libraries
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This work has been identified as being free of known restrictions under copyright law, including all related and neighboring rights. (<a href="https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/mark/1.0/">https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/mark/1.0/</a>)
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Identifier
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Osp003_003_041
Bryan
Yost
-
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Text
ROCKI NGHAM COUNTY
NAME OF CLAIMANT
#165 - Yost , Jacob - Trustee
Number of Acres: 940
Location: On Rocky Mountain and entirely within the Fark area .
Roads:
Soil:
Two miles of good dirt road to Yancey , the nearest shipping
poi nt .
(See reverse side}
History of Tract and condition of timber:
(See reverse side)
Improvements:
None .
Acreage and value of types:
Types
Acreage
Ridge:
212
$1. 00
$212 . 00
Slope:
728
2. 00
1456 . 00
$1668. 00
Value per acre
940
Total Value
Cove:
Grazing Land:
Fields Restocking:
Cultivated Land:
Orchard:
Minerals:
ValueofLand: $1668. 00
50 . 00
Value of Improvements: $
Value of Orchard : $
500 . 00
$2218 . 00
Value of Minerals: $
Value of Fruit: $
Value of Timber: $50 • 00
Value of Wood: $500 . 00
Value per acre for tract: $ 2 . 35
Incidental damages arising from the taking of this tract: $ NONE .
525
�SOIL:
Sandy l oam of varying depth and fertility . The ridge type is very
rocky , with many cliffs and little soil . The slope type is also
rocky, but there is -a small area on top and along the streams where
there is more soml .
Most of the area is very steep , but on the west
side of the tract there is some gentle land ..
There is a small flat
on top of the mountain .
History of tract and con~it i on of timber : The tract has been cut over for
various products for many years . It has been 15 to 20 years since
the bark was removed, but some saw timber was cut 'about 1927 . On the
nort hern portion there is a scrubby stand of yellow pine to 9n DBH
with occasional trees to 16" DBH. and a few scattered white pines
with smaller oaks to 8" DBH. It is estimated to contain 50 M. ft.
of oak a nd pine, and a t housand cords of firewood .
of the
Jacob Yost ~ructs (#165 , 165- a , 165- a-I)
The deed to Jacob Yost conveys a 5 , 000 acre tract ,
but menti~ns a number of exceptions, totaling 1042½ acres,
which are he l d , or cl ained, adve rsely , e.nd does not warrant
tit l e to them.
This leaves 5 , 000 - 1042 ~ of 395?½ ac r es to
which thJ title i s warranted .
he State's report covers acre· Ge
Tract 11165
r::'ract
u
i'T
s follows :
940 acres
l"o 5- a
32?? acres
'l1ract #165- -I
Tot 1
12 o.cres
4229
This is 27li- acres more than Yost ' s deed warranted
the title to .
It is believed that this difference is accounted
for by certain l •,:ids, included i :::1 the 1043½ E.. cres of except ions,
but title to ~hich has been perfected by Yost s inc e he bourht
the l~nd, as his deed refers to certain of the exceJtions
having their tit l e i n disput
Ls
~rt"-,
in pend ~ng tf jJJctnent s Gets .
~~~
-.l . :r. Sl oan
Chief :2:ngineer, :::-it: r}c Service
�ROCKINGHAM COUNTY
1 - - - - - - - -- - - -
NAME OF CLAIMANT
#165- a - Yost , Jacob - Trustee
Number of Acres: 3277
~
(
Location:
Two miles to Gap Run , and entire:ly within the Perk area.
Roads:
The average distance is two and one- half miles over goo d dirt
road to Island Ford , the nearest shipping point .
Sandy loam of good depth and fertility on some portions, but
mostly thin and rocky . The ridge type is almost covered with
loose rock and has many cliffs and outcrops and steep slopes.
The slope type varies a~§§tly in character along the western
History of Tract and condition of timber: t§~~ reverse side~
· (See reverse side)
Soil:
Improvements:
(See reverse side)
Acreage and value of types:
Types
Acreage
Ridge:
1476
Slope:
Cove:
Value per acre
Total Value
$1 . 00
$1476.00
1772
2 . 00
3544. 00
20
5. 00
100.00
15 . 00
135 . 00
$5255 . 00
@
3277
Grazing Land:
Fields Restocking:
Cultivated Land:
9
@
Orchard:
Minerals:
Value of Land: $ 5255 . 00
400.00
Value of Improvements: $ 400. 00
Value of Orchard: $
Value of Minerals: $
200 . 00
Value of Fruit: $
Value of Timber: $ 200 • 00
~
"bark
Value of Wood: $
50 . 00
$5905 . 00
50 . 00
Value per acre for tract: $1 . 49
Incidental damages arising from the taking of this tract : $ NONE .
V ~~~
- .&..:~~
L ~
- -~
...._
,'_CLERK.
s1
�\
Cont'd.
SOIL: border and on Gap Run.
There is deep and fertile soil, comparatively
free from rock, with gentle slopes. However, most of the type is
rocky and steep with fairly good soil.
The cove type has goo.d soil,
but considerable rock .
The tillable land is worn out and neglected.
HISTORY OF TRACT AND CONDITION OF TIMBER: The tract was cut over for saw
timber and bark many years ago, and since that time various products
have been removed.
Firewood and stavewood was cut in 1930. Nearly
a ll o·f the tract was severely burned about 1927 as well as in the past.
The southwest corner was very heavily burned in the spring of 1930.
The timber along the western border and on the lower part of Gap Run,
there is an open stand of yellow pine from 2 to 12" DBH much of
which is scrubby.
long the rower part of the stream and north of
Mile Run and in the eastern corner of the tract are stands of hardwoods, l a rgely oak with an occasional white pine. Most of the trees
are from 4" to 8" DBH with a fe w up to 14" DBH. The central porti on
has little tree growth a nd the few trees of any size· are not merchantable. There is considerable scrub oak in this section. On Two Mile
Run there is an open stand of Fhite oak, with some white pine, red
oak a nd poplar, ranging up to 20'' DBH. on Two ~ ile Run the estimate
is as follows: 150 M. oak a nd pine and 100 T. Bark.
�Revised Report
County:
District:
Rocki
Stone
ham
11
# 165 - Yost, Jacob, Trustee
Assessed:
Aerea68 Claimed: 4229
Value Cln:tmed:
Loo tion:
5000 A.
Deod: 3957,g A.
X
w2l,145 . 00
Assessed: ~2850 . 00
Rocky Mountain and entirely with1ri
the Park areu.
On
Inc'U.!:nbrnncos, counter claims or laps:
Nono
Deed: '7500 . ( 1920)
( This includes 165-a
nd miner 1 rishts
on other land . )
own.
Soil:
Sandy loam of
ying dopth nd fertility . Tho ridge type ·
is very rocky
.1. t h many cliffs o.nd little soil. The slopo
type is also rocky, but there is
small area on top nnd
along t h e stre s 1here there is more soil. I.•os t of tlie o.rea
is very steep, but on the ,est side of tho trnct t hr re is
sone g entle land .
There is a small flat on top of tho
mountain.
Roads:
'1' m t"".iles of good dlrt road to Y ncey, tho nearest s hi) Jing
point .
The tract has been cut
Historz of tract and condition of timber:
over £or various roctucts Por many years . It has been 15
to 20 years since the bark wa removed, but some s v tirubor
as cut about 1927 . On tho northern portion th re is a
scrubby stand of yello pine to 9" DBH. rith o cca siona l
trees to 16° DBH. and a few scattered h1te i nes with
smaller oaks to 8" DBH.
It is estima t ed to contai n
50 . • rt . of oak and pine., and a. thousand cords of .f1reood v lued as follows: h l.i41t-t,
50 • .ft. @ ~l . 00 (normal vnlue)
50 . 00
1000 eds. fuelwood @ 50¢
000 . 00
1'550 . 00
MI lffiHA LS :
On account of the fact that the value of tho miner a l deposit ppoars to bo highly speculo.t ive, no mineral va lue
has been assigned.
Value of land by types:
Acreage:
7~8
212
Tot l value of lnnd:
91562 . 00
Tot~l value of timber:
550 . 00
" ~!1~ . db
'l'otal value of tl'act:
Averago value p<-)r ere:
2 . 2~
~ -- This includes Tract #165- .
V lue
per acre
. 02 .00
.50
Tot•l
Vnlue
,?1456. 00
106 . 00
1562. 00
�REVISED RgPOJtT
unty: Rockingham
Distri ct: Stoneio.ll
_#,165- a - J cob Yost, Trustee
Acre ge Claimed:
4229 A.
A sassed:
5000 A.
Value Claimed:
21 ,145 . 00
Assessed:
2850 . 00
Location:
I
T~o miles to Gap Run
Incumb1•ances 1 counter ol 1ms or laps;
nd entirely
Lap
*Deed: 39571,. A.
( 1920)
Deed: 7500 . 00
ithin the P rk area.
on Annio H. · orris .
Soil:
Sandy loam of good depth nd fertility on some porti ~·ns,
but mostly thin and rocky.
Tho ridge type is lmost covered
1th loose rock and hns many cliff
nd outcrops o.nd steep
slopes .
T~ slope type v ries greatly in char cter along
the estcrnborder nd on O
un.
There is deep nd fertile
soil, comparnt1vely free from rock, 11th gentl~ olopcs •
.Honever, most of the tyge 1 rocky and steop i tri fairly good
soil .
The cove type bus good soil, but cono1der ble rock .
Tho tillable l 1d is worn out nd neglected.
Rocds:
Th& ver·age distance 1 t 10 and one-h lf miles over good dirt
rod to Islo.nd Ford, the no rest sh1 pi
point .
.
History of trnet and condition of timber:
The tract , s cut ovc for
sa timber and b rk m y ye rs go, nd since that time v rious products
have · been romoved . Jt'ire\1ood nd t a vowood 1 s cut in 1930 .
Uc· l'ly all
of the tr ct as severel.r bm•nod bout 1927 s ell as in t c · st . ' ho
soutb.,est corner t.. very hoe.v1ly burned 1n the spri
of' 1930 .
The timber alone; the west rn border and on tho lo ier part of Gap Run, -there
1s. an open st nd of yellow pine from 2 to 12"' D.tiU . much of' 1hich is
scrubby.
Along the low r p art or the strorun
d · north or , .i 1 e Run
nd in the a stern corner of tho tr ct re ~ t unds of hard~oods, l rgo•
ly o k 1th n occ sion 1 hi te in&.
,oat of the trees re from 4"
too" DBH . ~1th a re up to 14° Dnn .
The contr l portion has little
tree growth
the few trees of ny size re not merchant ble . There
1s considerable scrub oak in this section.
On Two 1 lo Run there is
an opon st nd of hi t e o k, 1th some hite pine, redo k and popl r,
ranging up to 20" DBH .
On To ile Run the est1m te is as follo~a:
150 • Onlt and Pino @ 1 . 00 per . • ----160 . 00
100 :..- . B rk
@
.so per T.-- -- 50 . 00
. .,,.goo.oo
Improv
ents:
Tenant hou~e: (On 1le Run )
rame- 14xl8', 3 rooms,
kitchen, 8xl8', pnrtly coiled, paper roof, .fair
condit1on.-----, 175 . 00
Bnrn: Log, 14xl9', paper roof - 40 . 00
e t House: 8xl2 1 , p per roof'•10 . 00
rJ:onant Rouse:
(G p un) Log, 14xl8 1 , ,1th frame loon-to
ail41 - 1oxl~', 3 rooms, 1 story, stone chimnoy, mo t ul
nd shingle roof, not ceiled, poor condition- 80 . 00
Smoke House: Fro. , 8xl2', shingle roof , poor 6ond'n
15 . 00
nen house:
Frtn e, 6xlO ' ; shin,_)lc roof, poor
tt
5. 00
Orchard: 15 fruit trees - v luod @ 1 .·00-15 . ( 0
Hen house: 8.xlO• -pa.per roof, :f 1r condi t1on-10 . 00
1½ story,
'350 . 00
(Continued )
�County:
District:
, tfl65-
Rockingham
Stone
ll
- Jacob Yostl. Tru,stee
On a~c"~ni ~£ l~~-lc:rcf lli41 $ev~lue 6flfie
:n,)nt! r-4,f- 4/e./.n>Sd3 lshtfhly Sf:, ec4/ed1ii/e 1 no rn11·u:ra-(
v'erlue h4.S ,6ee-n C'/~51'91'Jec(_
M nernl:
V lue of land
~
Slope
Slope (burned)
Ridge
Fe
bz
typos:
Valu
Acreage:
20
ear acre
·5.00
1750
2 . 50
22
1476
l . 50
. 50
12 . 00
9
3277
Tot l
V lue
100.tn,
4375 . 00
33. 00
738. 00
108. 00
Total value of land,
5354 . 00
Totnl value of improvements: 350. 00
'l'ot l v lue of timber:
200 . 00
Total value of mineral,
Total value of tract:
.£e,,tJ 4, ., (J (>
Aver ge value per acre:
~ftft"I
l ~i'O
Note:*•·This includes miner l rights on 561nd 1/2 or tho
mineraf on 83 A.
The excess acreage 1s prob bly in roas bat iere
in dispute when the survey
s made .
l.7
�Coun ty: Rocki ngha~
Distr ict: Stone wall
#165- a-I
Jacob .Yost, ·T r.
-
Lap on Annie II , Morr is.
Mile Run . Entir ely withi n the I ark o.rea.
Loca tion:
Soil:
"
tt
Value Claim ed:
Laps:
Deed
A ssess ed
Acreo .ge 6laim ed:
Lap on Annie H. Uorri s.
Slope .
#
3 miles over count y road to Islan d Ford .
has been
Hi story : ~11 merc hanta ble timbe r has been removed and the tract
repea tedly burne d over .
Roads :
Impro veme nts:
Value of land by types :
~
(burn ed) Slope
Value
per a.ore
Aerea 5e
12
Total value of land
, 1 . 50
18.00
Total value of impro veme nts
Total value of timbe r
Total value of tract
~vera ge value per aore
1$ . 00
l . 50
Tot 1
Value
, 18.00
�The Commonwealt h of Virginia:
TQ tllc Sheriff ~f Roiingham Count~ ,eeting:
'
,You are hereby commanded to summonCii}.0~ ~ . ~:,;;/(.~.~
~:~ . .~~' .t : ~ ~ T ~. ?&· .
~ . , ..
..~
··· -
..
·I· ~
~-
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:: a;:,a;JfJ)l..Jt' ::;Jt;;;:x:~ of:otgb,a: ~:,::y::,t,~:7 ::u:
~
1
rn,
::h~/ ::::.::'"'!,~'!' ;':~
.Lk?.1/...e~ .~ ... .~~~~~~!:-:~~
T ~>
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-
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a-,,
)
0
........... ................... .. .
_d-~
b ( . . . ~ l ······ ······ ···· ····· ···· ······ ······ ·· r
Plaintiff
Defendant
And have then and there this Writ.
J
In witness whereof, I hereunto set my hand, as the Clerk ol tbe Circuit Court o
ham County, Va., at the Cour~~se thereof, t bis, tbe
193
I".
a
~~y of .
J , and in the 15 1,7:'¥JJ:d!Z:J~
L. PRESS, HARRI SONBURG, V A
. , Clerk
�Cltnmmnuwtaltq nf l!Iirgiuta
TREASURER'S OFFICE
RICHMOND, VA.
JOHN M. PURCELL
January 5, 1934
TREASURER OF VIRGINIA
This is to certify that I , J.M. Purcel1, Treasurer
of Virg inia have this ~5__ day of January
in accordance
with an order of the circuit court of Rockingham County
dated
1/a/34
in the cause of the State Commission
on Conservation a n d Development of the State of Virginia
vs.
paid to
Cassandra Lawson A~t=k=i=n=s~----------Au,~ust a National Bank of Staunton Virginia rrr u stee
$ 2 , 218 . 00
being in full settlement of tract#~
in the above mentioned cause.
332.
�Qtommnnwtaltb of Birgiuta
)
TREASURER'S OFFICE
i
RICHMOND, VA .
JOHN M . PURCELL
January 5 1 1934
TREASURER OF VIRGINIA
Augusta National Bank of Staunton , Virginia, Trustee
Re c eived of J. M. Purcell, Trea s urer of
Virg inia, th e s um of $
2, 2Js .oo ,
i n acco rdance
with an or der of the Cir cu it Court of the c ounty
of
Rock:tngbam
of January
entered on the
2nd
day
1 934_ , in the matter of t h e State
Co mmission on Conservati on and Development v _ __
___C=a=s=s~a=n=d=r~a~L=a=w=s~o=n~A=t=k=in=s_ _ and other s , bei ng
full and complete settlement f or the tract of land
kno wn in said proceeding a s #_ __.1~6~5L-- ugusta Nati onal Bank of
:;:]Pl~~-
~~icer.
Sign or ig in a l and dup li cat e
and r e t u rn to t h e Treasurer
of Virginia.
333
�DIVISION COUNSEL B .
a
0 . R . R . .CO.
LOCAL COUNSEL VALLEY R. R . CO .
RUDOLPH BUMGARDNER
ATTORNEY AT LAW
ROOMS 9 AND 11 MASONIC TEMPLE
SUCCESSOR TO BUMGARDNER 6: BUMGARDNER
STAUNTON, VA.
March 11th, 1931.
Mr . J. Frank Blackburn,
Harrisonburg, Virginia.
Dear Sir: -
Condemnation Jacob Yost Lands Hill Tract
I am herewith enclosing answer of Jacob
Yost Trustee in the above proceeding, in pursuance
of leave of court to file same on or before V~rch
18th, 1931.
Will you please note same as duly filed.
Very truly your s ,
/~~
Rudolph Bumgardner.
RB/HFL
Enclosure .
Copy to Mr . Jacob Yost,
416 Webster St re et,
Falo .Alto, Cal.
�QlnmwnuttttttltlJ nf lllirgiutn
TREASURER'S OFFICE
RICHMOND, VA.
January 13, 1934
JOHN M. PURCELL
TREASURER OF VIRGINIA
This is to certify that I, J.M. Purcell, Treasurer
of Virg inia have this
13
d.ay of January
in accordance
with an order of the circuit court of Rock:ing ham County
dated
l,ll/34
in the cause of the State Commission
on Conservation and. Development of the State of Virginia
Laws-on -At kins
vs. - - - -- - Cassandra
- -- - - -- - -- - - - - - - paid. to _Augusta Na~ional Ba nk of Staunton , Vi rginia, Tr us tee
.
""Sta unton , Virginia
$ 5 1 90 5 . 00
being in full settlement of tract # 165- a
•
in the above mentioned. cause •
334
�Qtommnuwtalt11 of ]lirgiuta
TREASU RER'S OFFICE
RICHMO ND, VA.
Janua ry 13 , 1934
JOHN M. PURCELL
TREASURER OF VIRGINIA
Augus ta Natio nal Bank of Staun ton, Virgi nia , Truste e
Staun ton, Virg inia
Receiv ed of J. M. Purce ll, Treas urer of
Virgi nia, the sum of $ 5 , 905 . 00
, in accord ance
with an order of the Circu it Court of the county
of
Ro ck ingham
of Janua ry
entere d on the
2nd
day
1 93__.i_ , in the matte r of the State
Comm ission on Conse rvatio n and Develo pment v _ __
_ _. wC.,. a......su.s=a.....n...,,d.....rL.>a.,.______,L.,.,a, ._w.. .___.,_s"""'o_,,__,n~ A,..,,t=k..,,i,.,,n=s,,___ _ an d
others , being
full and compl ete settle ment for the tract of land
k nown in said proce eding as
# 1 65-a
UGUSTA NATIONAL B1~TK OF
STAUNTON , VIRGI NI A~ TRUSTEE
JAN 1 5 1934
f;l
C
I
R
ur
,
~
.
~ -~
-
BY
Sign origin al and duplic ate
and return to the Treas urer
of Virgi nia.
33$""
�o_;
Jv.,:. I3uIC l
Vl:-,GLHA .
m
'T'
...
1.
CO.f.:i..c,. V. . dI01
)
}
V,) •
~os . lo5 , loo - A, 165- -
•
)
1 ./SO...T
04 LE.:i.-3 .
.ti
KI tu , ~t al~ , dlID .52 , bul .tl.lLw' 0
tu August a
thi:=.
l
1
amm ....c,
1. ts
Bu. i.:::: t
. . .u ID ,
un t
.•
ttu.t::'i.
7 irgL1ia , T .cu~ 'toe , by Cl
01.1 ,
don its
ill
ti~n
aav
i,.
ti.t> .
giv
i
s'- i d
fi.1.0 i ti:i, a plhrn.tion ·or pay.,.i nt to it of thi3 s v rc.:.l
. . u. s h •re·1 fter
~221L . OO , thJ a~ u t of
sarib~d , to-wit :
or tru.ct
fl05 ; tte su~ of )5905 . 00 , t
3
.
ount of th
ward :;.et out in
the ,judo".uent of 0ond3 n:ition of tr(l.ct -~165- A.;
• ou t
24 . 0 , th
Jond
h
J. 1,
Vv
of
w· .cd set out i 1 the juut,,..J• · o
of the
t .ion of tra.J t
--ld the Sl:l
c..
·o . 165 - - 1 ; al L of ,.rhi,_;h s-
o .ca .... u ums
h_rotofore been p id into Court .
d it
d
pp ~ri.g to the court th t t .. e
i
t unton Virgi nu ,
,I
1
ust
u~uQ
, is L...v ;St
,itn
JQ
ti
I'
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2218 . 0
1--lAMMER & 1--lAMMER
ATTORNEY S AT LAW
Ju.ct by p-:ititi ner '"'s
tra'c thJ sun o~
iu·"., a._, 1~ ,1' ticn fer tru..,;t ·;o .
5905 . 00 p id L1to ) urt JJ
"let:
ti
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�comp n::>atjon for tr ct ~;ro .
~~4.00 1)aid i
Tract : o.
• bo paid to
~r- -
just c o. ,ponsatj
y ....... t.itj .1.10r a
to Co 'l:ct
tt
s id ,.~gu~t
1.nd it i"' "u ... t L.e.r or J.r d "'.;ht th
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of c nd
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I-JAMMER & I-JAMMER
ATTOR NEY S AT LAW
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rap .co
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to tho
, th
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_ ing thJ ainot..nt o' ".;h
ti
t:.c ct
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hi
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of
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nd ti t tho
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S1HA.i:.: CO ...P.... i , H
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The .::ltc,;.t
of Vir inia . Petiti nJr
~t~t
I
vs "
•1d b2b6/
a.c r s of Land, mo ... u or
I
Less , in \oc.t:ingham ~uunt~~ , ~,irginia ,
Tf1e Petition of 1hl) -1.ugu..,tu Hat ion 1 3an: of stc:.u1 ton ,
T at a iudg 1ent in ra.n ha
..
bee.1 onto rod. in
Jr,3t0j'lu.i.0
proce ,ding condemning to the usJ of th
tho abov
fJ', si.npl:3
the t.L·a..;ts
st tJ L
pf)t.i tionor the
umb rd us follows :
Tni.Jt
n·1r:1ber 165; 1:tract nu ..abJr 165 A;a.1d 1.raut l~o. 165- .A-l ,
ar
tract
d~scrib din th
the
Ori
juag..1...,J.
t
s
ounty
J
it
1:1nd :::..Lo\vl, .nu.no-red, and deJ.ine-
ltd'2hip "~ci.p f\t_"d tr.er
........ :1tutin0
id
report of thj Bocrd of ~ppruisul
co.11JjS"'ionJ s appoL.ted h11· i
t..,d
rl icl! s
tlu
wa.i·
G
i i i tr. ,
th .refo ...· ,
il)O.il
pay ..Lit
ful.Lo fo :
1:.
1JUI d
on t ... ct J . l~b una Jo.t l1i1~ 940 aJr..., 1 v_iucd ut ~2218 . 00 , and
1\
traut !;o .
65 A and ~o 1taL 1ng 3277
Jr ... ,
1a Vat J
~d
t
':>905 . 0
t
i
"'t
tota
ag~·eg~te valuation of the baid thrue truotl of
,i '11'8147 .oo .
I'
"ortL Ci;at tLe
tl.~
': folloHing n . d p r~o s claL.a or appo r to have" -:o tLu ..: id a.lld
I·
,,
... hut
tte r . . port of the s· id
De. .!.'d so~.
A.
or in the _proceeds
ri~ing from tho conde,,mutiu.1 the..c·Jo_ , to-wit :
J vob Yo~~ . Trustee ,
tJt,I
That tLe EL id pa ti tionAL:...::.. paid l11to th
court the ouid s ..,:1J . . Jt o:.. ... i11 th
I-JAMMER & I-JAMMER
th~ awl:lrc1.:. for tLe f .. e ..., L p.L...,
i~..;,
·ai
t
te .i
,ju 6 ,i1Jllt
1
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LG
lu.ld
-..:u...;todJ o.f tLe
u.::i
co..LL itutL..g
t.,\:;t,,.;
ts of -"nu .
ATTORN EY S AT LAW
That 1.eg 1 t ·
v
~ o1
tna u ta of d,·0 :....J.ia. juo 6 .1EL!"t in
:cotdem i11g tries id tr c.:ts of .Luua wa
11 Jc-JO
J.~1:L.1
/
'[o...,t , .l.ru...;t e ,
a
�in th,-1t cert · i 1 d ed fro.1 Rudolph
:.img rd or, Sp oda.L Co.nt1iss -
1•ioner to J Job Yo"'t , dat~d :rarch 11:th , 1920 .
Th t
1!
Ja.coo Yost , tho
I trustee i n 8aid d ed a n d the holder of the le g a.l -citle to Gc,1.d
1 nds h ... d,._,p · rt ,_rn t t. i~ ljfe , u .i a. that o 1 th,
19.),'.l , the Circuit Co 1.ct of Roc.L;:i A· ham
\ of Cha:d . C1:1t t olt, ~rust
ty , VLct,;i 1-L .. ,
vOLl
.,,
t t dt; dece
.cd11er ,
sud , .'i.rlne
•
t tol\ ,
o :ri.,,0 . . .1. , .1.h, lie
Jr ., .....x cuto.L' of . . ud lph
.:;xocu tor of J .
• Holuos ,
d ceased , in d~ed fro ,. _u...;olp11
u,ag· .cd
Ja. ob Yost , Trustee of' date , 1:.' J.rJh 4th ,
vle
r;cr s Off ic
h
nd
.L920 ,
J a ..::o b Yost ,
r , Co,n:1is::, ioner
and. of J.~eoo_d
of .Rockingha :.1 County , Yi rginia , in Deed
o o,c 116 at page lGO , all of wl.ich 'Jill .:noro fully
I
.,:{UU O.L
f tio.m.L Ba.tl<.: of Staul1ton ,
i rgi11ia ," tru8 tee in the p u0 __. u.. d stead of the S t_,._i
th
.notion
u.ng - .ca.ne.c , O.tWdu.Sud ,
a i1er , a poin ted tho "Augusta
I
Oi.1.
Jhas . A. Ga.1.lac5h r , ~x -.iuter of Ja..;oo
t.. ,
Yost , d o ~as ..;d , i . B. G. C tlett , :)has . C
H.
day of
p rnar f r um
... artlfi •d co py O..L tho ord r appoi 1ting Potitionar Tru:.:;toe in the
,
iiI.
ac
a.1d ste d oi' the s id Yost , dee
"': ~ ~
-a...,__,~......___,-~-r--
lt10w holdJ" tl tle to thv
said
sod , a,1d that ::?etitiouer
in accorda.1-Je with the trust
t1L1d...,
11
~g · re_.~•nt under whiJh the s~id Yo&t beca~~ and PetitioJer i8
I·
ili v0sted
ii
I
:Ji th title to said lands .
That no ot·.er
};)t.1..CS u 11
i
1or are _. 1ti tJ.ed to £hara
i
.l
or pJ.c.-Jons tha..1 yu'Jr _eti.ti ue..c:· i..:.1 ,
tne distri Jutio1
of tt
iou.id
11
~:c i
lOv'J
the p.coceodo
.ch,i11is fro.a tu
I
UOtldtj.
aWuLdS 1
1u.tiou uf tho said .Lands .
II
~eti
tio
1:
1
r av ers
~i•
.:.t the.cu · re
o lien~
1:.1.
a.List
eti.ti0.l.W.L'L
'I•
!inte.c :::.ts L1 s,.ud
ilionda,J.!.1ci.tio.
tho.co of
tlflucttas showi
aud 11 Clor;r 11
!-!AMMER & !-!AMMER
ATTORNEY S AT LAW
I
a11ds U.L' · 6 aL ::.t tho p..c:·o-.:eedl:;, cl..c·si1 ,. fr m the
b
d
th t
that ul1. t xos have ou ,11 po.id .
'or-
~l taxes have oeen puid.~nd that there
I
1d which a.r·e p.cayea. to oe ru4d ao !). p .ctf hureof .
I
!
1he:.refore , your
titioner prays that it .nay be ad .1itt d
a •r
the provisions of seution 21 of the Pub -
as a party herein u
L _ __ _ _
d.l
_..1__~~------ ---------- ---------- ~---~i1
�lie Pa.rK Co11d~riu1ation
0t , and tnut an ord rm· y -b
.in dirtJc.:ting the payillent of th
said
1
torecl here-
•1a.rds , d dum:;; to
tition-
er ~s the hold r of the fee sL.iplo title to the ~<.ooid .Lands , and
for the pay..ie 1t o.r the said ewurds which ho is
nti tlod to
Tract
receive , and ~vhich Petitioner ave.cs to be as follows :
:I Ho .- 165 , ~2218 . 00 , Tract ro . 165A , J5915 . OO , and Tract tro .
165-a-:i, ,i,:>24 . 00_.
1\
Jlay precess 1issuad _and Petitioner will
11
eV f3r
p:cay &c .
1\
The Aug usta National
By:~ a o l
Attest:
of Staunton
I
STA2.\:; 0~1 VI RGI:-T IA
Cl1Y 0 .1!1 ST c] T(i.,. ; , T0-'lit :
I
I,
of
j\
E.
o.
Hudlow
-----
, a JJoturJ PLU.LLis:; L.1 a.nu for th9 City I·,
I
t unton in the
Kivlighn.n, President
do certify that
of The
Micha.el
ugusta :fo.tion~.L 3u nk of f.ttaunton ,
:I Virginia , Trustao , .P-...rsonal.Ly appeared before ,uo in my
i
u.id City
and .:n de oat r. . t hat the stc...t3:nent of facts co_.1.tained in the .:'oro going :Petition .iade upo n his o·,m ~cnowl d g 13 is trus and those
;1 . . de f:.co.:1 L .for.nation derived fro
..1
othe:cs he
ol.ieve.., to be
\ true .
,,
I
1,
11
Gi.ven u _· r my h~ 1d t h i s ~ da y o
D~,L.,l08r , 19,53 .
~
~MY COMMISSION :C.lL?illZS DEU. 29, 198&
I-IAMMER & I-IAMMER
ATTOR N EYS AT LAW
:I
I
I
I
II
'
1
i\
I
�M.
H. HARRISON
TREASURER OF ROCKINGHAM COUNTY
HARRISONBURG, VIRGINIA
To lhom It May Concern :
I hereby certify that the records
of my office show that the taxes for the years 1932 and
1933 assessed the tract of 5 , 000 - 0- 0 acres of land in
the name of Jacob Yost Trustee situate in the Blue
Ridge l,:ountains in Stonewall District , Rockingham
County, have been paid .
! 11 taxes prior to that time, if
any be unpaid , are a matter of record in the Clerk ' s
Office of said County .
Given under my hand this 19th
day of December 1933 .
M. H. Harrison, Treasurer
By
/ t f @ ~ s Deputy .
�VI RG · I
~'i'.H .'r' 0
I,
....oo.tei
J . Robe.ct
ham Jounty ,
office do nut
Dh,tri ot
1
r•
o
ow u.1y
i:;jsesse d in· th
Giv
.1.
''i..c<Jui t court of
itz r , .Jlo..c,c of th
y certify tnac the ~euoru~ i
.c
u..01..ill
u nt ti;;}.xes.
ti (., .
L
~
t the tr.... (rts of
n · ne of J . Yo~t , Tru:::;tee .
una.e.c m.y h
d tnis 27th
ci
y of Dec nbe..r , .L9j •
1!
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1-jAMMER & 1-jAMMER
ATTORNEYS AT LAW
Ii
I
I
I
2
�Claim of Jacob Yost, Trustee .
IN TEE CIRCUIT COURT OF ROCKINGHAM COUNTY, VIRGINIA, No. 1 829 at Law
The State Commission on Conservation
and Development of the St a te of Virginia
Petitioner
vs
Cassandra Lawson Atkins and othem, and
Fifty Two Thousand Five Hundred Sixty One
(52,561) Acres, more or less, of land in
Rockingham County, Virginia.
Defendants
The undersigned, in answer to the petition of the State
Commission on Conservation and Development of the State of Virginia,
and in response t o the notice of condemnation awarded upon the filing
of said petition and published in accordance with the order of the
Circuit Court of Rockingham County, Virginia, and by special leave
of said court, in its order rend ered on the 18th of February, 1931,
asks leave to file this his answer to said petition and to said
notice .
The name of Petitioner is Jacob Yost, Trustee, Post Office
address #416 Webster Street, Palo Alto, California, (Rudolph BumgPrdner
E sq. , Staunton, Virginia, resident agent and a ttorney) .
The undersigned , as such Trustee, hoiding upon the terms
of trust explained and set out in the deed of conveyance to him
hereinafter mentioned, is the owner in fee of the following tract or
pa :r cel of land vii thin the area sought to be condemned . which is unimproved, except with two or thre e cab ins, viz:
(1 ) The fee in a parcel of land described in the deed as
3957 1/2 acres, more or less, shown by the recent Bark survey to contain 4,229 acres; whi ch lands are underlaid with va luable mi ner als ,
contain~ va luabl e timber , and some of which is fitted for agriculture.
(2)
The minerals and mining rights in 561 acres in lands
contiguous or adj oining .
(3)
One undivided on e-half of the minerals, together with
the righ t to mine the other half on terms of paying twenty five c en ts
-1-
�- 2 {25¢
a ton royalty in a tract of 83 acres contiguous or adjoining.
(4).
The fee in 398 1/2 acres, more or less, contiguous or
adjoining, the title being disputed by certain claimants and the
matter being involved in certain e jectment suits pending in the Circuit
Court of Rockingham County .
Your Petitioner as such Trustee, is the owner in fee of the
lands and mineral rights stated above, the title being clear and undisputed, with the exception of the 398 1/2 acres, above mentioned;
and the land and mineral rights being , ,1d upon the trust expressed
in the above mentioned deed .
Your Petitioner acquired said tract and mineral righ ts in
the y ear 1920 by deed of Rudolph Bumga rdner, Commissioner of the
Circuit Court of Rockingham County, in the Chancery cause of Charles
Catlett, Trustee, vs. John ~ - Roller et als, bearing date
on the 4th
of March, 1920, and of record in the Clerk's Office of said County in,
Deed Boo~ 116 at page 160 .
Your Petitioner claims that the t otal value of the tra ct of
422 9 acres of land, of which he owns the fee simple title, including
the timber and the underlying minerals, is $5 . 00 an acre, or,
$21, 1 ~5.00; the val ue of the estate in the underlying minerals in
the tracts of 561 acres and 83 acres, of which other parties own the
surface and timber, is $1,000 . 00, and a fair valuation of the estate
of Petitioner in the 398 1/2 acres, of which the title is in dispute
and involved in litigation, is $200.00.
There is no provision , so
far a s Petitioner is advised, in the Park Act, as in t h e Act controlling
t h e aca uisition of lands by the Federa l Government for forestry
reser:e, for retention of the minerals, and for future mining of s a me
under the regulations prescribed by the Government.
The Commission
has had its surveys and plots ma.de of the
above mentioned lands and is fully informed as to alm details respecting metes and bounds, contiguous owners, etc.
With exception of the 398 1/2 acres, of wh ich the title is
-
2 - ----~
1.s1
�-
3 -
in dispute, and wh ich is described and segregated in the deed to
petitioner, ab ove mentioned, the title of your Petitioner to the
4 22 9 a cres of fee, and 561 acres of minerals and 8 3 acres of which the
Petitioner owns half of the minerals with the right to mine the other
half on a royal ty basis -- is established and not in dispute.
It is
the desire and wish of Petitioner to sell same to the Co:m.~ission; and
a number of years ago your Petiti on er, on reouest, gave an option
to that end whi ch was never exercised.
Your Petitioner is now de-
sirous of selling at a reasonabme prirre , being invested with undisputed title, which is easily demonstrable from the reco r ds, Jour
:petitioner is a t a loss to understand why the matter should be throwh
into condemnation without effort to effect a sale by negotiation .
Your Petitioner's only desi r e in the matter is to secure
a reasonable price for the land for tbe benefit of his cestuis-quetrus t ent, and if it is the desire of the Park Commission to acquire
the lands on terms of paying a reasonable compensa tion to the owners,
there is no difficulty in arriving at a composition, and there is
neither necessity nor justification in involving Petitioner in the
costs and vexa tion of a protracted and complica ted proceeding .
Yout Petitioner's sole requirement in the case is that the
court will protect his rights as a land o\mer, whose property is
being requisitioned by the publie authorities without effort to
negotiate or treat with Petitioner in respect to the va lue or terms
of a sale.
Your Petitioner reserves all righ ts guaranteed to him by
the condemnation S,t a tute, and res erves the right to d emand a ·ury
to be impanelled for ultimate determina tion of the va lue of said land
and mineral rights in the event that a f a ir allowance be not made by
the Com.mis si on or by the Board app ointed to view the land an d make
an a.ward.
Vi tness my signature this
!J..:d. day
of 1.far ch , 1931.
~ inT,~
-3-
~
�- 4 -
Stat e of Virg inia,
Coun ty of Augu sta , to-w it:
The unde rsign ed hereb y cert ifies that Rudo lph Bumg ardne
r,
Agen t and Atto rney for the ab ove named claim ant, pers
onal ly appe ared
befo re her and made oath that the matt ers and thing s
appe aring in his
abov e answ er are true to the best of his kno,7 ledge
and beli
ef .
This //.th. day of Yi.arch , 1931 .
)J
J J . ~.
Not~
Filed in the Clerk's Office
Rockingham County, Va,
MAR , ~ 1931,
L
--71~
... 4 -
~ ~~
~
Cler~
,
�:Ho. 1829 at Law
The Stc.1te Cor.mnission on Conzervation and Development of the
State of Virginia - Petitioner
)
vs !A-::::::-of Jacob Yost, Trustee
CassB i\dra Le.wson ./'.tkins end others
and I'ifty Two Thousand Five
Hundred Sixty One (52,561) e.cres,
more or less, of land in Rockingham County, Virginia - Defendants
}
RUDOLFR Btn!GAF.DJTER, ATTORlJEY
�4 , ti, t,
I '·;
.s-
~· s-, 7·- ~ ,
,.,
7
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�(!(?Of.: IC ~i,
,
C:. t-....,_.
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF RAPJAAH1dfflOOK COUNTY, VIRGINIA •
••• 000 •••
THE STATE COMMISSION ON CONSERVATION
CASSANDRA t LAWSON'
ATKms'
EI' .AL.
_JUID DEVELOPMENT
' DEFENDANTS •
••• 000 •••
DEP 0 S I T I 0 NS •
••• 000 •••
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER Be ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL. VA .
�IN THE CIRCUIT COURI' OF RAPPAHANNOCK COUNTY,
VIRGINIA.
THE STATE
COMMISSION ON CONSERVATION
AND DEVELOPMENT
TS.
CASSANDRA, LAWSON, ATKINS, Er. AI..
DEFENDANTS.
IN RE CLAIM OF JACOB YO&r TRUSTEE.
Hearing in Solicitor s' Chambers in the City of Har risonburg , by consent
of the petitione r and claimant as to time and place, before the Board of
Appraisal Connnissio ners of Rockingham County.
PRESENI': Miller A. Price, Chairman of the Board,
George H. Levi, Secretary of the Board,
W. L. Green, Member of the Board,
Weaver and Armstrong , Attorneys for Petitione r,
Charles A. Hemmer, Attorney for Claimant, Yost Trustee.
MR. N. H. HARRISON, a witness of lawful age, deposes and says as follows:
A. Yes.
Q.
Your name is N. H. Harriscn?
Q.
Where
Q.
How long have you lived at Island Ford?
Q..
You live upon what is known as the J ohn Wood tract?
Q.
Does, or does not, that land adjoin the land owned by the Yost Trustee?
A. I think it does.
Q.
You, for a great many years, were Superintendent of that district, and I
believe you were also Commissio ner of Revenue?
A. Yes.
Q.
You are now Deputy Connnissioner of Revenue of RockinghaI!l County?
A. Yes sir.
Q,.
You know the big survey pretty well?
A. I know quite a bit of it, but I have not been over it lately. It has
been several years since I have been over most of it.
Q.
Is not that survey fit for orchard or farming purposes?
A. Some portion of it is.
Q.
What, in
land and
average,
A. As a
Q.
Yes, as a whole, the whole acreage embraced in the claim.
A. I would say about three and a half or four dollars an acre, to the best
or my- knowledge .
Q.
you know where there is, on the land , some buildings there?
A. Shifflet lives in the buildings that I know of on the trect.
do
you live?
A. Island Ford.
A. Thirty-se ven years.
A. Yes.
your judgment, lb-. Harrison, based upon your knowledge of the
your observati on of it, would you saw that land is worth , on an
per acre?
whole?
Do
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL, VA.
-1-
�Q.
Q.
You know the Jordon Hansbrough property on there too?
A. Yes, I have been back there.
Will you describe to the Commission the nature of the land, as you know it?
A. There's all kinds in there; some timber, but not very successful at this
time, that portion of it largely in timber. It's been several years since I
was in there. I have not been in that portion of the land were the timber is
for several years. I don't know wether there has been any cut lately . From
my judgment, the land, as a whole, is worth about three dollars and a half
an acre.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. AFMSTRONG:
Q.
How much cleared land would you say there is in the tract?
A. Well, there isn't very much that I know of. I wouldn't hardly know what.
Q.
Well, of course, I wouldn't want or expect you to confine yourself to any
definite number of acres, but just what would be your best idea?
A. The cleared land that I know of --- I would say fifteen or twenty acres,
without the boundaries that I am not really familiar with.
Q.
What makes up the value of three dollars and a half an acre, that you think
the land is worth?
A. Well, there is timber on it and firewood, but without it has been cut
since 1 was on it.
Q.
How much tlmber would you estimate there would be on thi s tract that could
be cut and sawed at a coat low enough to give a man a profit?
A. I wouldn't be able to answer that question without making some survey or
estimate of it.
Q.
You have not make any survey of it?
A. No, I have not gone over the tract for the purpose of ascertaining that,
no sir.
Q.
As a matt er of fact, isn't the timber that is on the tract very scattered?
A. Yes sir. It is mostly in the hollows.
Q.
Do you know of any body of timber sufficient to justify the taking in of a
saw mill and hauling that body of timber out, or, in other words, isn't it
a fact, that you must have something like fifteen to twenty-five thousand
feet at one place in order to justify a saw mill?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Do you know of any place that it would pay to take a saw mill and saw the
timber?
A. l wouldn't know of any at any one spot.
Q.
What kind of timber is there on this tract?
A. Well, there's some pine, chestnut oak, and there had been quite a bit of
· chestnut that is dead, and there had been quite a bit of locust. I used to
hunt there sane years back, but I haven't been there lately. I don ' t know
what has been done in there.
Q.
And you would not be prepared to say whether or not saw timber had been cut
there about the year 1927?
A. Over five years, there was some timber cut.
Q,.
Now, I Will ask yo,1 if the portion of this tract that would be classed as
ridge type, for instance, the tops of the mountains, isn't very rocky, with
many cliffs?
A. How's that?
Q.
Do
you know what I refer to when I say "ridge type of soil ?
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRO N G
FRONT R O YAL, V A.
-2-
A. Yes.
�Q.
Isn't the ridge type in this tract very rocky?
Q.
Isn't the slope also quite rocky?
Q.
Most of the area is very steep?
A. Yes sir, pretty steep.
Q..
The greater portion of it?
A. No.
Q.
Mr. Harrison, would it pay
Q.
Then the chief value of the land, so far as you know, is such timber as may
be on it, and :f'uel wood and bark, is that right?
A.. Yes sir.
Q,.
What would you say the value of the fuel wood on the stump would be per
cord, say?
A. Well, some of it wouldn't be worth anything practically at all, others
would be worth something, I would say very successful along lots of portions. I wouldn't know hardly wha t it would be worth; about twenty-five
cents a cord on the stump I would say.
Q.
Now, you know, ther e is your value of three dollars and a half an acre on
the land, based upon all of the values except the mineral values. I believe
you have not been questioned about the mineral value of the land. That
value is more or less arbitrary for the reason that you do not know, as you
say, how much timber there is on the land, either saw or other?
A. No, I wouldn't be able to say how much saw timber would be on there, for
I haven't made any examination to find that out, end I wouldn't attempt to
say.
Q.
Mr. Harrison, if it were shown by a careful cruise of the timber and a careful cruise of the fuel wood that there would be two hundred thousand feet
of saw timber and one hundred to ns of bark and one thousand cords of :f'uel
wood, would you think that your estimate per acre should be reduced somewhat -- say about two and a half an acre?
A. Say two hundred thousand feet of saw timber; -- how much bark?
Q.
One hundred tons.
Q.
Take into consideration that is scattered all over the whole tract of five
thousand acres and the resultant expense it would take to get it out.
A. Of course, I don't know what it would cost to get it out, and at the
present time it isn't very valuable.
Q.
Well, I was accepting your first worth of about twenty-five cents on the
st-wnp; I was supposing that the timber was worth about one dollar per thousand on the stump, taking into consiueration it's location and the expenses
necessary in getting it out, owing to the fact that you could not carry a
mill in there, and the sl!lall quantity of tan bark, one hundred tons or one
hundred cords, which is also scattered, and giving a value of fifty cents a
ton on the stump, do you think those reasonably fair values I have suggested?
A. Well, I guess at the present time, I guess it wa.ild be, where the lumber
and bark is situated. I was asked what the whole was worth from my general
knowledge; that is why I placed the figure as I did.
Q.
Yes sir, I was just trying to figure how you arrived at that figure; whether
you had counted more timber or whether you had assigned a higher value to
the timber?
A. Well, just like placing a value on any fann or piece of land; when I was
asked what it would be valued at I would naturally fix a figure in my mind.
A. Yes sir.
A. Yes sir, a great portion of it.
any man to clea• up this land for the purposes of
agriculture?
A. Not at the present time it wouldn't, no sir.
A. Yea -
And a thousand cords of fuel wood
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL , VA .
-3-
�Q.
And you were carrying in your mind that many thousand feet of timber and a
certain number of cords of fuel wood, and if it could be brought to your
attentio n just pretty close to what actually was there in the way of saw
timber and wood, I wondered whether you would be willing to revise your
valuatio n of it?
A. Well, if a man is mistaken in his judgmen t, well, naturall y he would,
likely he would.
Q.
Well, as I understa nd your testimon y, when you testifie d, you did so without
referenc e to the quantity of timber, or that is, rather, you didn't have in
mind any particu lar number of thousand feet of timber, nor of cord wood nor
of' tan bark?
A. No sir, I didn't.
Q.
And the land would not be worth cleaning it up after the saw timber and the
fuel wood is gotten off, I believe you say?
A. No sir, to me it wruldn' t.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HAMMER:
Q.
Mr. Harrison , do you have an idea that there is not more than a quarter of
a cord of fuel wood to the acre; that is what their estimate would be?
A. Natural ly there is more fuel there than that.
LAW OFFICES
Q.
That is nothing compared to what the place will cut, is it, in your judgment
A. No, the only trouble would be getting it out.
Q.
But it is accessa ble to the siding for shipping purpose s at Yancy and Island
ford, isn't it?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
I will ask you this, by putting a barbed wire fence around the grazing land,
what use could that be made of for the handling of cattle?
A. Those hollows have been used for that, and could be used advantag eously
for that purpose .
Q.
Would it, or would it not, with a fence, sustain one hundred or a hundred and
fif'ty head of cattle during the season?
A. Before I answer that, what portion ---- I suppose it would a hundred head
any way.
Q.
Speaking of saw mills, there has been saw mills on that tract of land more or
less for the last fifty or seventy -five years, hasn't there?
A. Has been unti~ the last few years; ever since I lived over there.
Q.
And the land is now covered with a young growth of timber, isn't it?
A, A great portion of it. It had been burned over lately, a great portion of
it.
~-
You are refering to the time when some fire wardens set the fire out on this
side of the mountain ?
A. The fire was there, I don't know how it got there.
Q.
I will ask you one question ; I don't know whether you know it or not; do you
know whether there is Kaolin back in there?
A. I don't know. There is one outcropp ing and I am not very lamilia r with
that. I know it is there, but I never investig ated it.
Q.
The lands that are a good portion flat are somewhat similar to the lands
of Andrew Muberry?
A. Yes.
Q.
And that land sold for eight dollars an acre?
A. I don't know what it sold for.
WEAVER & ARMSTRON G
FRONT ROYAL, VA .
-4-
�Q..
A. Yes.
Andrew cleaned it up too?
RE-cross EXAMINATION:
Q,.
You were asked by Mr. Hammer something about the location of' the Kaolin outcroppings on this tract. Can you tell us where these outcroppings are with
reference to the lower boundary of the tract; I mean are they on the upper
portion of the tract, the lower portion or the center of the tract or where?
A. The only place was back, if I am not mistaken, in the south end boundary.
Q.
Where is the exact south end?
A. I em not exactly familiar with that. Where I am speaking
close to where Will sbiftlet lives . The outcropping I know of
middle or the center or the tract, right up Mile Run, east ot
I own. I know there was one there. I didn't pay any especial
is the only place I noticed.
Q.
Mr. Hammer has asked you some questions with reference to the quantity of
fuel timber on this .land. I would like to ask you whether or not you think
there is more than one thousand cords of fuel timber easily enough accessible to be able to cut and remove at a profit?
A. Well now, I doubt if there would be at this time to cut and move it at a
profit. There is a good deal more timber on there though, but when you cut
and move it for profit, that is a different proposition.
of is somewhere
is about the
the tract that
attention;that
BY MR. LEVI:
Q.
I would like to ask - in regard to the grazing, you say one hundred head of
cattle, do you mean there is enough grass --- ?
A. I will explain why I said that. For several years, three or four years,
take ~wo Mile Run, just east of Island Ford Station, I ran thirty head · of
cattle out in there without any fencing or anything, and they did just as
well as they have done since on the mountain, but people got to dragging
them off or I lost them, and I quit. There is grass enough, bush grazing
and some grass along the creek. I had them in there for about three or four
years.
Q..
Is this tract fenced?
A. No sir, just down in the hollow.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION:
Q..
Now, I understand that you quit grazing notwithstanding the fact that the
cattle ctid well, but because you lost sane cattle?
A. Yes sir, they got away sanehow. I don't know the cause, and I lost some
of them, or by getting hold of sane bushes, I found sane of them dead. After the fire ran through there, I drove them in there.
Q.
So that it is not safe to graze cattle on that boundary?
A. Well, I quit on account of the causes I have just stated.
Q.
Did you ever consider fencing it?
A. No sir. Ifo, I never considered fencing it. I did just this side of it; I
fenced off about three acres there and grazed that up until about some ten
or fifteen years ago. I had just the same results there - the cattle dying,
and I quit there. It is along the tract I own now. Some wire is strung along
the trees there.
Q.
But it is not all fenced around?
A. No sir.
And further this deponent saith not.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL . VA .
- 5-
�MR. E. B. SELLERS, a witness of lawful age, deposes and says as follows:
Q.
Mr. Sellers, I believe you were born and reared near Island Ford in this
County?
A. Yes.
Q.
Do you own land adjoining the Yost tract?
A. No, my land don't run up to that; I am interested in that sixty-six acres
that touches that.
Q.
Do
Q..
How long have you known that land?
A. All my life.
Q.
I wish you wruld tell the CoIJ111i.ssioners what, in your judgment, is a reasonable value for that tract of land, taking into consideration the different
purposes and uses to which it can be converted, and as.king allowances for
those portions which are worthless; in other words, an average per acre.
A. Between four and five dollars an acre, I suppose.
you know what is called the "Big Survey", or that portion of it lying to
the north of where the Shifflets live?
A. Yes sir, my line runs near Mr. Shifflet's house.
cross EXAMINATION BY MR. A™STRONG:
Q.
Can you tell the 6ommission the various types of soil on this tract, and the
approximate number of acres of the types of soil?
A. No sir, I could not. I have been through there a good many years ago. I
noticed the principal timber is in the hollows and on the ridges there is
nothing except logs and brush. There is a fairly good supply of chestnut
oak and some locust, if it could be got out for locust posts, sane white
oak and some hickory.
Q.
Now, could you give an estimate of the quantity of merchantable/timber on
the stump on this land?
A. No sir, I couldn't, I wouldn't like to.
Q.
Could you give an estimate of the quantity of tan bark on this land, which
is accessable?
A. I have no idea of the quantity.
Q.
Could you give an estimate of the quantity of fuel wood on this land that
could be cut and removed so that the party cutting and removing it would
not sustain a loss?
A. No sir, I wouldn't like to say.
Q.
Did you hear Mr. Harrison testify?
Q,.
l'lhy do you value the land per acre at a greater price than he does?
A. Well, that timber is sort of a permanent class of timber; after you cut
it off it will come again, chestnut oak and hickory; it is a sort of a permanent piece of timber.
~-
Well, you are testifying as to what the land would be worth in the future?
A. Yes.
Q.
I will ask you what, in your opinion and from your knowledge of this land
and. from your knowledge of the timber or wood growing or standing on this
land at the present time, is the present fair, cash, market value of the
land?
A. I would say abou:b four dollars is a fair cash price.
Q,.
Present fair cash market price?
saw
A. Yes sir.
A. Yes.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL . VA.
-6h/0
�RE-DIRIDI' EXAMINATION:
Q..
would ha.ve
Mr. Seller s, they say "in the future ". This land, in the past,
been worth more then?
BY MR. A™STRONG:
The questi on is object ed to for obviou s reason s.
practi cally
BY MR. HAMMER: The threat ened acqui sition of the mount ain land has
only that, but
destro yed the sale and uses of these lands for the presen t; not
affect ed the price along the Shenandoah River too.
as much
BY MR. AR.1STRONG: The tanns with no timber land attach ed are not worth
as those having timber .
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION:
Q.
river and
I will ask you wheth er or not the farmer who has his fann on the
mount ain or
who is engage d in rearin g stock and has a grazin g place in the
land along
place to shift his cattle , whethe r or not the ~alue of that farm
by
the river, wheth er adjace nt to the park or not, will be deprec iated
closin e the mount ain?
l questi on
BY MR. AiiMSTRONG: Questi on object ed to becaus e it is a hypot hetica
ony has introsuppos ed to state eviden ce that neithe r the claim nor the testim
nce.
existe
in
be
to
shown
claim
the
of
rt
ducea up to this time in suppo
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION:
Q.
Q.
throug h
Can, or canno t this land be uteliz ed for the grazin g of cattle
there and has it been so used in the past?
,of it being
A. I would n't like to say. I never used it mysel f. I have heard,
used so. I have always carrie d mine to the mount ain.
When they close them to you, will you have to move?
A. I will have to go out of the cattle busine ss, that's all.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION:
Q.
or grazWould you say that this land would be worth for either agricu lture
ing purpos es, the costs of cleani ng it up and fencin g it?
A. No, it could n't be cleane d up and fenced .
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION:
Q.
Q.
itself in
Suppos e we take it with the presen t timber , which will replen ish is it
about fiftee n years as a growin g propo sition , growin g into money,
worth anythi ng?
A. That is the one improvement you can put on it.
In about sixtee n years the growth replen ishes itself ?
A. Yes, it will soon replen ish itself .
And furthe r this depone nt saith not.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRO NG
FRONT ROYAL , VA .
- 7b l(
�MR. J. s. PIRKEY, a witness of lawful age, deposes and says as follows:
Q.
Mr. Pirkey, you live at Grottoes, I believe?
Q.
And I believe you and your brother had charge of the West and the Alexander
tract of land for years?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
You are pretty familiar with the land, are you?
A. Well, in a way, it's been thirty odd years since we had anything to do
with it.
Q.
You know where the line between the Alexander and the Hill survey is?
A. Yes.
Q.
Direct your attention to the Hill Survey; from your general knowledge of
that land, in your judgment, would you say that land, on an average; that
is, what would you say that land, on an average, is worth?
A. It has been so long since I have had any opportunity to go over it; I
wouldn't like to place any value on it at all. I wouldn't feel I was in a
position to place any value on it.
Q.
Because you lack knowledge of the land in late years?
A. Yes, I haven't been over the land for thirty odd years.
Q.
When you were there, was it pretty well timbered or not?
A. Well, at that time it was considered a fairly valuable piece of land. The
timber had been culled out.
Q.
It is a fact that that timber repeatedly replenishes itself if fire be kept
out?
A. Right at that time it did, yes. We aimed to keep the fire out.
A. Yes.
cross EXAMINATION:
Q.
Mr. Pirkey, you know it to be a fact, do you kot, that this land has been
swept over repeat edly by fire?
A. I have an idea it has.
Mr. Pirkey, sanething' has been said about timber land replenishing itself;
that is second growth timber. What is the character of the greater part of
this tract; I mean as to rich,l , thin or poor soil?
A. The soil is quick sand soil.
Q.
Does it produce quick and thrifty growth of trees?
A. Well, in a way. The ravines may because the leaves and moss would be
there and the ravines will grow up rapidly.
Q.
What proportion of the acreage on the tract is embraced in ravines?
A. I couldn't tell you; I don't know. I don't suppose an acre a tenth.
Q.
I believe you stated that because of the fact you had not been on the land
for something over thirty years, you were not in a position to give the
Board a fair s tatement of its value, and you would decline to put a value
on it?
A. Yes sir.
BY MR. mmRONG: In view of that testimony, I have no further questions to ask.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL , VA.
-al:,!'L·
�JOHN KING, a witness of lawful age, deposes and says as follows:
Q.
Mr. King, you work for the Norfolk and Western Railway?
Q.
Where cto you live?
Q,.
You 11 ve east of Island Ford, I believe?
Q.
How close to this Yost Survey?
A. Well, I live, I guess, a mile and a half of it, or something like that.
Q.
Are you pretty familiar with that land?
A. Yes sir, I bought some ott that some time ago. C. M. Shifflet owns it now
Q.
You have been over practically the entire tract?
A. I think I have. I run stock out there right smart.
Q.
A. Yes.
A. Over in Luray.
A. Yes.
How did they do?
A. Fairly well, first rate.
Q.
Mr. King, what, in your judgment, is that tract reasonably worth per acre,
I mean an average per acre?
A. Well, I'll tell you, I cton't know how the timber is right now, and I
don't know if there's been any fire damage.
Q.
I will ask you to take all that into consideration. What is it reasonably
worth per acre?
A. Well, it looks like it ought to be worth five dollars anyhow, taking
the whole thing.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. Al:1'AST]l)NG:
Q.
You say you are a tanner, Mr. King?
A. Yes sir, I have been; I work for the Norfolk and Western now.
Q.
But you own. lend?
Q.
When you say that this land is worth, on an average of the whole tract, five
dollars an acre, upon what basis do you make your calculation?
A. Well, for the pasture and other conveniences, prospects of the youbg
growth of timber and so on, and there should be a lot of ballast through
the mountain. They haa figured to get it out at one time, but I don't know
whether they did or not.
A. Yes sir.
RE-DIRF.CT EXAMI NATION:
Q.
Q..
You mean the Norfolk and Western were interest ed in taking where the logs
were broken for ballast'?
A. Yes sir.
Do
you know anything about the minerals?
A. They have got sane mineral out of that one mine there. That's located --no, that w011ld be the Shaver mine, but the mine I am talking about wouldn't
be there; that wouldn't take that in, it's this side of the Shaver mine,but
it was right across from there.
Q.
Do you know about kaolin deposits?
A. No sir.
RE-CROSS EXA'MINATION:
Q.
Now then, Mr. King, your value of five dollars an acre I believe, as you
have testified, was based on prospects for growing a future stand of timber
and on prospects of mineral values?
A. Well, for pasture too.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER Ile ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL. VA.
-9-
�Q.
It you eliminate future stand of timber and prospects for minerals, what
would be the value of the pasture?
A.Well, the value for pasture would be a great deal to a person, take a
year like last year. Lots of people all through the river that owned stock
put it in there.
Q.
Wel l , was this tract well watered last year?
A. Well, sane of it, I s uppose. I wasn't in there last year at all, but
they ran cattle in there, diff erent parties.
Q.
What did they pay, per heaa, tor running cattle in there?
A. I don't know, si ~, but phe~ paid one :roan, but what they pa.id him I don't
know.
Q.
Well, was there any fit to graze on that tract except in the hollows or the
ravines?
A. Nothing but young growth bushes, grape vines. They do pretty good on
that.
Q.
Throughou t the whole season?
A. Some have been running them throughou t the whole sea.son. These came off
the mountain the last part of the sumrrier.
Q.
What would be the number o~ head of cattle that could be run over this
boundary of about four thousand acres per year?
A. Well, there could be quite a number of cattle through the summer season,
but I couldn't say how many.
Q.
Well, what would you give for the grazing privilege for a year on this
acreage.
A. The cattle could live in there. I have run cattle in there.
Q.
I understan d it you would have to turn them in there, you would. Do you
mean you would not unless you couldn't graze elsewhere ?
A. I mean it wouldn't pay me to pay saneone to look after them if I had the
pasture somewhere else. I wouldn ' t turn them in that far away from home.
Q.
It would not pay you to do 1 t?
A. No, not that far away from home.
Q.
It would only pay you because of the failure of pasture elsewhere ?
A. Yes.
Q.
And if you eliminate all question of restockin g of timber and of the prospects of mineral value, and contine yourself to elements of value such as
tuel wood and saw timber as there might be on the tract, ana its value for
grazing purposes, do you not thiuk that, under those circumsta nces, you
would feel that a lower value than five dollars per acre would be just and
proper?
A. lt looks like t o me that something like that would be a reasonabl e price .
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION:
Q.
How much fuel wood is there in cord, would you say, on that tract?
A. l couldn't hardly say unless I would look, you know. There is some
places would be greater than others on the l a nd, of course .
Q.
Could you give an estimate?
A. I don't believe~ could unless I looked over it.
And further this deponent saith not.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FR.ONT ROYAL. VA .
- 10-
�ses and says as follo ws:
MH. M. H. LONG, a witn ess of lawf ul age, depo
the nort h ena of this Big surv ey,
Q,. Mr. Long , you are fam iliar and live on
you had a part of it at one time ?
A. No, that was my fath er.
Q,.
You own it now?
er got it for payment of taxe s.
A. No, Ida Phel ps owns it now. My fath
Q.
?
You are fam iliar with the lani ; more or less
A. Yes, part of it.
Q.
How long have you known it?
A. Ever sinc e I was a boy.
Q,.
and reas onab le valu e of that
What, in your judgment, Mr. Long, is a fair
allow ance s?
Q,.
Four thou sand , that is undi sput ed.
A. Is that Jord on Hansbrough plac e part of it?
Q.
Yes, it is part of the land .
t deal of land in ther e, I
A. In ther e where Jord on live s ther e is a grea
aske d me, I would say,
Wel l, answ ering the ques tion that you just
thin k,
--- five doll ars would make two thou sand --ty thou sand doll ars.
AR1s r RONG: No s lr, it would make twen
due
trac t, per acre , take n as a who le, making all acre s are ther e?
many
How
er.
answ
A. Tha t's a hard ques tion to
BY MR.
, it isn' t wort h twen ty thou sand
BY THE WITNESS: Wel l, that wrul d be too much
doll ars.
Twenty thousand doll ars look s like
Q. I aske d you the aver age valu e per acre .
pric e per acre . What is your
a lot thes e days , but we are aski ng you the
ther e?
land wort h ther e? You own sane land back in
the kina of land owned by the
BY MR. AR!1STRONG: Que stion obje cted to beca use
and he may have a reas on for not
witn ess has not been test ifie d to or shown,
wan ting to sell it at any pric e at all.
h per acre ?
Q. Not as a who le, but what is the land \1Drtns from the who le.
lusio
conc
A. I'd sort of have to draw my
You have been on the land , you
Q. But we are not inte res ted in the who le. rdle ss of the size of the trac t.
ough t to know the valu e of the land rega
Have you ever been over the whole trac t?
A. Yes, I have .
~.
Q.
~.
Q.
How far sout h have you bean on the trac t?
line in ther e.
A. I carr ied the chai n that divi ded the
A. Yes sir.
You know the cond ition of the grou nd?
What is that sect ion wort h?
e doll ars an acre woul d
A. Take n as a who le, by the ere, I thin k thre
make the who le thin g run migh ty big.
I am aski ng what the land is wort h an acre ? . I would try to arri ve at it
A. I am not goin g to make a shot in the darkh.
wort
by --
and get it in my mind what it is
cross EXAMINATION BY MR. ARMSTRONG:
Q.
own mind, at the pres ent,
Mr. Long, I will ask you to arri ve, in your
LAW OFFICES
WEAV ER 8c ARMS TRONG
FRONT ROYAL, V A.
-ll-
�fair, cash, market value ot this tract, for all purposes for which it is
adaptable?
A. That don't sound right to me, either; I don't know by the present
value whether it is worth five cents. I don't think it is fair to take
the present value.
Q.
Well, I will probably ask you some questions later in regard to that.
The question I am asking you now is what, in your opinion, is the present fair, cash, market value per acre of this tract of about tour thousand acres?
A. I reckon between three and four dollars an acre .
Q.
If there were four thousand acres, the placing of a value of three dollars
an acre on it would make the whole tract worth twelve thousand dollars,
wouldn't it?
A. Yes.
Q..
you know of any way that that tract c culd be handled by which it could
yield a fair return on twelve thousand dollars?
A. I don't know. It has capacity in several different ways.
Do
Q.
Well, what different ways?
A. It CBll be used tor range land.
Q.
What would the tract be worth, per acre, for range land?
A. Oh, it would probably be arranged for a couple hundred dollars a year.
Q..
You say if it was properly arranged for, it would be worth a couple hundred dollars a year?
A. Yes.
Q.
How would it have to be arranged?
A. Some fencing would have to be put on it, and a caretaker.
Q.
About how much would you have to pay a caretaker?
A. You wouldn't have to pay him very much in cash, he would probably make
his by giving him privilege to live on it. I think most of them get their
caretakers practically free.
Q.
What fencing would have to be done?
A. I don't know in detail, but you usually have to fence across ranges,
and I would wire it across places where cattle will get out. There are
some places that cattle will not bother trying to get out.
Q.
Well, give us your best idea of the cost of such fencing as you would
think would be reasonably necessary on this tract?
A. I would have to go over that; I couldn't say without going over it .
Q,.
Well, independent of the cost, you think that it would render about two
hundred dollars a year for grazing purposes?
A. I would think so.
Q,.
Well, two hundred dollars a year would be a very sroall return on an investment or twelve thousand dollars?
Q. Just tor a loan it would, yes. but there is timber on there.
Q,.
How much merchantabl e timber is there?
A. I don't know. There is some growing there.
Q.
Then you take into considerati on some future value or the property?
A. Yes, but I know very well there is a value there. You can take a growing calf after it has passed the veal stage, but you can't say the calf
isn't worth anything, because it has a growing value, and I think there
is some canpensatio n for the growing timber.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER &ARMSTRONG
FftONT ROYAL , VA .
- 12-
�Q,.
If, sane five or ten years ago , a man had a fine stand of chestnut timber,
he would have thought it fine. The blight got it, and 'though he didn't cut
a single tree, because of the blight the timber would be worth practically
nothing.
A. The pines did die, and we know the pines are growing again.
Q,.
And they may die again?
Q.
So that fixes future values as highly speculative ?
A. Well, yes.
Q,.
I understood you to say, when answering one of Mr. Hammer's questions, you
A. Yes.
stated after multiiflying the number of acr es by three dollars per acre,making a total of twelve thousand dollars, that you said that is too high?
A. No, I said the twenty thousand dollars was too high.
Q,.
And didn't you further state when you got down to twelve thousand dollars,
didn't you say that you were still too high?
A. I don't think I said that; you can go over my notes and see if I said
it .
Q.
But you now think you were not too high?
A. No sir.
Q.
Three dollars may not be too high, but how about twelve thousand?
A. That would be the same thing.
Q.
Would you be willing to give twelve thousand dollars?
A. No sir, I wouldn't be willing to give anything.
RE- DIRECT EXAMINATION:
Q.
That land is known as ideal sheep land, isn't it?
A. No, I wouldn't say so, it has ivy on it.
Q.
Well, ivy doesn't hurt sheep, does it?
A. Yes.
Q.
How about goats?
A. Goats would do alright.
And further this deponent saith not.
MR. E. C. MOWBRAY, a witness of lawful age, deposes and says as follows:
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL , V A.
Q.
Mr. Mowbray, where were you born and raised?
A. East Rockingham.
Q.
What town, or in connection with what is known as the Big Survey?
A. Adjoining land.
Q.
Live there all your life?
A. Lived there until coming seventeen years, but I was close by all the
time.
Q.
Are you familiar with the Big Survey?
A. Yes.
Q.
Ever work on it and pass over it?
A. I have.
Q.
What was the na•ure of the work?
A. Hauling part of the e~tract v.t>od, hauling rogs .
- 13-
�Q.
How much land would you say is capable of being converted to orchard or
agricultural purposes?
A. About half of it.
Q.
Are you familiar with that portion of this tract lying east of big mountain,
between that and the blue ridge, where Hansbrough used to live?
A. Yes, I live not very far from there.
Q.
About how much would you say this tract of land, taken as a whole, is
reasonably worth, per acre?
•· Well, I would think reasonable about fifteen dollars an acre.
Q.
Upon what do you base that statement, Mr. Mowbray?
A. Well, from the nature of the land that lies against it at our farm, and
seeing the land in the Hansbrough tract, seeing what all of it will produce.
Q.
How about the timber, is there any?
A. Yes, there is timber on it.
Q.
About how much bark would you say is capable of being cut on it?
A. I believe that a man could get something like five hundred cords there
yet.
Q.
Do you think there would be that much?
Q.
About how much saw timber, would you say?
A. Pulp wood?
Q.
No, saw timber.
A. Well, there ought to be around ~wo hundred thousand feet of saw timber.
Q.
How about the extract fire wood?
A. Well, I would say there is ten cords per acre of extract and fire wood.
I think it would average that.
Q.
You have worked in timber practically all your life?
A. Well, I've did both, farming and hauling. I've did both at the same
time.
Q.
Did you work for Mr. Shifflet?
for him, hauled bark.
Q.
Do you know whether or not, under his contract, he was restricted as to the
size of the trees he should cut?
A. Yes sir, there was a size he should cut and one he shouldn't; nothing
under six inches.
A. Yes sir.
A. Yes, sir, I hauled
A copy of the contract between J. Yost, Trustee, and H. L. Shifflet for
the cutting and sawing of certain timber on this land is herewith filed.
LAW OFF ICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
Q.
Mr. Mowbray, do you know anything at all about whether there are any minerals that crop out on the land?
A. Well minerals are around there on the same land that I reside on.
Q.
The land that you own is known as the Sipe or Lawson eighty-three acre
tract, on which Mr. Yost owns the mineral rights?
A. Yes sir.
The minerals that you speak of, outcropping or opening was maae close to
the Neville Crawford house, lying a.t the northwest or practically right on
the northwest line of the Big survey and the tract which you own, isn't
that right?
A. It's southwest of the house, that's above where I live - west. The
gentleman who was out there the other evening estimated it fifteen hundred
feet from where I live right now
FRONT ROYAL , VA .
-14-
�Q.
Do you know of any other outcroppi ngs on the place?
A. Down there by the Ida Phelps land; tha t's the land is going into dispute . Don Yancy is the claimant and his land doesn't reach it.
Q..
What would you say that the bar k on the t r ees is worth per cord?
A. Well , we bought it for three dollars a cord right in the mountains ;
that's what I paid for it.
Q..
What would you say that the saw timber ia worth on the stump?
A. On the stump now --- well, I would say a dollar and a half a thousand,
Mr. Hammer.
Q.
What would you say that the fire wood is worth per cord?
A. Fifty cents per cord on the stump.
Q.
Speaking of fire wood, is, or is not there any market for fire wood i n
your section?
A. Well, there has been, yes.
Q.
Is it, or is it not practical to cut the fire wood and deliver it to the
rai lroad at Yancy or at Island Ford, ship it to Waynsboro, or Shenandoah
or Elkton?
A. Yes sir. I have been getting five a cord for wood already worked up,
that is block woods anything from twelve to fifteen inches.
Q.
When you receive that much for your wood, how much is clear profit?
A. Well , I cleared around two dollars a cord on that, Mr. Hammer. I might
clear a little more than any other man. I had my own horses and my own
labor.
Q.
I will ask you whether or not this body of land is c apable of being grazed
to advantage ?
A. Yes sir, you can get two-third s of that land into grazing.
Q.
Can it be used for browsing purposes the way it is?
A. Yes sir, it had been.
Q.
How many head of stock would that body of land sustain for three, four or
six months?
A. I'd say a hundred or a hundred and fifty cattle, just in the bushes.
Q.
Do you know whether anyDne has ever grazea in there?
Q.
A. Yes.
About how much cleared land is there up around that por tion of the tract
where Will Hansbrough lived?
A. About ten acres in clearance .
A. Yes.
Q.
Houses and ot her buildings thereon?
Q.
What would you say the house and buildings are worth?
A. They're in prett y good shape; about two hundred dollars.
Q.
How much is cleared up around where Will Shifflet lives?
A. There is something like eight or ten acres there.
Q.
What is the nature of the buili i ngs there?
A. I haven't been there for some time , but I would say a hundred and fifty
for that hous e. I don't know what he has added --- well no , he has a barn
there, ain't he - a large stable, I'd forgotten that.
Q.
Are there any fruit trees?
A. Yes sir, there is a good orchard on the Hansbrough place.
Q.
About how many trees?
A. I reckon thirty- five , forty, maybe fifty trees.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL , VA.
-15-
�Q.
How old are they?
A. I suppose they are fifteen or twenty years old.
Q.
Would you have an idea as to what they are reasonably worth per tree?
A. Well, those trees are worth twenty dollars a piece I would say --good apples, good variety and good conditioned trees.
cross EX:AMINATION BY MR. AR1STRONG:
Q.
How much did I understand you to say, in your opinion, all the buildings
on this four thousand acre tract or approximately four thousand acre tract,
known as the Yost Trustee Land, are worth?
A. I said about two hundred fifty at Hansbrough's place and one hundred
and fi!ty at the Shifflet place, but I'd forgotten about his building that
stable, about a l6x24 building there since. That ought to be worth about
two hundred dollars for the buildings there then.
Q.
That would make about five or six hundred dollars tor the buildings then?
A. Yes.
Q.
Have you seen these buildings recently?
A. Yes sir; that is the Hansbrough. I haven't recently seen the buildings
at the other place. I waa, every day for su: weeks at the Hansbrough place.
I had to go in order to feed a horse that I had crippled ther~.
Q.
You have spoken about there being thirty-five apple trees?
A. Yes, I think there is about thirty or thirty-five or maybe more trees.
Q.
Of what varieties?
A. Well, I don't just know the names, because I am not familiar with the
fruit, but they are all good eating apples.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER 8c ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL, VA .
Q,.
You don't know what varieties?
A. No, I only know the one apple, the Andrew Milan apple.
Q.
Do you know whether or not there is any value for Milan apples on the
markets?
A. Well, I couldn't tell you that, but I know it is a good variety of
apple amongst the people. They come from far and near to get it. There
was a man come from Roanoke to get apples to take home.
Q.
Did he come up there?
Q.
What did he give for them?
A. I don't know that; I know he bought them.
Q.
Do you know whether or not these apple trees are sprayed regularly?
A. Well, they haven't been since Mr. Hansbrough went. He had to get away
from there on account of his health.
Q.
Do you know whether or not these apple trees are pruned and cultivated?
A. Not since he left, but the7::were in his time.
Q.
How long has he been gone?
A. Three years I think.
Q.
Do you know whether or not it is now profitable to grow anything else except first quality apples?
A. Well, these quality apples is the best on the market they claim. I
don't grow apples myself.
Q.
It is your opinion that the tract of four thousand acres now under consideration is worth at a minimum, sixty thousand dollars?
A. Sixty thousand?
Q.
Yes? Or did you mean to say that?
A. Why sure its worth sixty thousand.
A. Yes.
-16-
�Q.
How do you arrive at Sixty Thousand instead of Fifty or seventy five thoussand?
A. Well, you can get your land, your timber to pay you.
Q.
How much timber?
A. It ought to cut two hundred thousand feet of timber.
Q.
And I believe you said that was worth a dollar and fifty cents on the stump?
A. That is what they usually pay. Some charge more. That's what we paid for
it.
Q.
What else?
A. We paid two and a half in the beginning for the bark, and we had to pay
five toward the last.
Q.
How much bark?
A. There ought to be five hundred cords there of bark yet.
Q.
What value on the stump?
Q.
Two and a half a cord?
A. It was, the last I bought was five dollars.
Q.
I am speaking of the value you have already given this bark?
A. Yes, I said two and a half.
Q.
All right, sir, what else makes up this value?
A. Chestnut wood; that f s a dollar a cord.
Q.
How many cords?
A. I think I said about f1 ve hundred cords.
Q.
At a dollar per cord?
Q.
All right, sir, what else?
A. And there would be ten times that much in fire wood.
Q.
Five thousand cords?
A. Yes sir, there would be five thousand cords of fire wood.
Q.
Outside chestnut?
Q.
That you give a value of fifty cents a cord?
Q.
All right, sir, now the buildings, I believe you said they had been worth
between five and six hundred dollars, and outside of the timber and outside
of the firewood and outside of the buildings, if this were cut and taken off,
what would the land be worth per acre for agricultural purposes?
A. Well, you can take agriculture, with the land clea1·ed, will produce you
anyhow fifteen dollars per acre.
Q.
You think, then, this land is worth more than fifteen dollars an acre?
A. No sir.
Q.
Well, you have testified the timber was worth so much, the buildings and the
wood worth so much, and then it was worth fifteen dollars an acre.
What would it be worth for any purpose whatsoever after all the buildings
and timber had been taken off1
A. Well, you take the timber, wood and buildings off there, you have a value
done gone. If you pay five dollars an acre for the land you have a gooa value.
Of course, and to clear the land then and put it to agrt culture and fruit?
A. It will produce small fruit, such as raspberries. I don't see why they
couldn't get a quarry on the land and get the rock without blasting and
carrying on to get it, to build these hard roads.
Q..
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL , VA .
A. Two and a half.
A. Yes sir.
A. Yes sir.
-17-
A. Yes sir.
�•·
Ther e is plenty of rock on the land?
A. Yes, there is.
Q..
Isn't there plenty on top of the ground?
A. No, not plenty, just about two stones in spots. You could get just a few
atones off on top and it would be clear.
Is it very steep land?
A. It is partly steep, but none any steeper than the ordinary grazing lend.
I haven't seen any portion of grazing land that wasn't steep and mostly
rough to boot.
Q.
Q..
I understand you to say the t the value you fix on it, independent of the
buildings, fire wood, timber, to be five do&lars an acre?
A. Yes air, I would if I was able to give five dollars an acre for three or
five hundred acres of the land right next the Unes of the land I have.
Q.
You consider that all the value of the land?
A. No sir, I am just considering the part I would want. There is three or
five hundred acres lying right again me there that would be good for grazing, fruit or any other purpose. I would consider that valuable land.
Q.
You would consider that worth five dollars an acre?
A. After the timber and the buildings was off.
Q..
And that would be about the best of the land?
A. No, that ain't the best, man, no, that's in line with mine, I am not
speaking of what is lying over the hill.
Q.
Well, what about that over the hill?
A. That is ~!ile Run, I have been in, Big Run the same way; that is in the
next survey.
Q.
Well, how about the lands lying outside the slopes of the run so to speak?
A. Well now, when you come to buying that land you have to pay more for it,
they wouldn't sell me that land for no five dollars an acre.
Q.
Q.
I am not asking what they would sell it for. What is it worth?
A. With the timber standing on it now----I em trying to get at the value of the lanu exclusive of the timber.
A. Taking the timber off it, taking the fire wood and everything up clean
and putting it to cultivation, it would be worth about fifteen dollars.
Q.
Then, your answer is that after removing timber, buildings, fire wood and
so forth, the land is worth, on an average, five dollars per acre for the
whole tract?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
And with timber, buildings, fire wood, and so forth, fifteen dollars an
acre?
A. Yes sir, taken all the way through.
Q.
Five Dollars an acre would make twenty thousand dollars for the land?
A. Yes sir.
LAW OFFICES
Q.
Three hundred dollars is the value of the saw timber at a dollar and fifty
cents a thousand?
A. Yes.
Q.
Twelve hunctred ?ifty dollars is the value of the bark at two dollars and
fifty cents?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
That makes twelve hundred and fifty for bark?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Six htmdred dollars is the value of the buildings?
A. Yes.
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL . VA ,
- 18-
�Q.
Twenty five hundred dollars is the value of the fuel wood on it at fifty
cents a cord?
A. Yes sir, at fifty cents a cord.
Q.
Now, if we add these values all together we get twenty-four thousand six
hundred fifty dollars as the total value of the land. That, as I understand,
is your testimony as to what the total value of the land would be?
A. That's ta.king the land and buildings and everything.
Q.
With twenty thousand for the land, three hundred for the saw timber, twelve
hundred fifty for the bark, sh:: hundred for the buildings and twenty-five
hundred for the fuel, all that together makes twenty-four thousand six hundred fifty dollars?
A. Did you count the extract there? There is five hundred or a thousand
cords there.
Q.
Well, how much is there?
A. I will say five hundred.
Q.
How much is that worth'?
~.
That is twenty-five thousand one hundred fifty is your opinion of the
entire value of the tract'?
A. That's about right.
Q.
Then you were mistaken when you said the land was worth sixty thousand
dollars'?
A. I said fifteen dollars an acre.
Q.
Well, how much would that amount to?
A. I have never figured it.
Q.
Then that was a pure guess?
Q,.
A. One dollar per cord.
A. No sir.
Well, you have figured it now?
A. You have figured it now, and I have figured it after you, yea.
Q.
Q.
I will ask you whether or not a portion of this tract that lies on ridges
or mountains isn't very rough and very thin land?
A. Well, right on the tops. I was over about ten acres on top last year
and there is a part of it is as rich as you can find in the bottoms.
A part of ten acres'?
A. No, as much as ten acres. I justbappened to go through there looking for
e~tract wood.
I don't think any of your men have been through it; if they
had, they would have known it.
Q.
Do you know whether or not l..dr. Hosiah R. Shifflet had a contract?
A. Yes sir, he had a contract to clean up the entire tract, but he didn't
do it.
Q,.
Why?
A. I couldn't tell you why, but I know he didn't.
Q.
Do you know whether or not he found his contract profitable?
A. He must have or he wouldn't have kept on.
LAwoFF1cES
WEAVER &ARMSTRONG
Q,.
But he did not keep on?
A. No sir; I don't know why. No sir, I never asked him why.
Q.
You never heard him say?
Q,.
Has Mr. Ilosiah Shifflet been in the timber business
A. Yes sir.
A. No sir.
a
good part of his life?
FRONT ROYAL , VA .
-19G,Z3
�.A. Yes.
Q,.
Is he an experienced timber man?
Q.
Is he familiar with the Yost tract, do you think?
A. Well, a great part of it, but I know he has never been over the entire
tract because he is a crippl ed man, and he could not ride over all of it.
Q.
What length of time did he spend in operating on this tract?
A. Three years.
Q.
Do you know whether or not he put in saw mills for the purpmse of manufacturing timber into lumber?
A. lie put in two.
Q.
How many seats?
Q.
Would you say he didn't have as many as five?
A. Well, I don't know about five. There are two that I know of.
Q.
Is it not a fact that he could and did remove practically all the saw
timber of any value?
A. Uo sir.
Q.
If he would say he cut and removed practically all the sa\f timber over the
A. Two. ---
tract that he did cut, he would be mistaken?
A. He ctidn't cut it all.
LAWOFFlcES
WEAVER &ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL , vA .
What did he leave taat was of value?
Q.
I said all of any value.
A. Pines.
Q.
Were they easily accessable or otherwise?
A. Part of it could be gotten as easy as what he did get.
Q.
Where was that?
A. Back where I live and also soxae just below where I live.
Q..
Is that on the Two Mile Run tract?
A. No, he wasn't in there at all.
Q.
Then the pine that he didn't cut was situated elsewhere on the tract, on
what they call Bee Hollow?
A. That is where he had one seat and Wall's Run.
Q.
State why, if you know, Mr. Hosiah Shifflet did not get all the pine there
where he had a saw mill seat?
A. He haa a saw mill seat. I don't know why he didn't get it.
Q.
How much did he leave that was accessable and could have been gotten out
without going into debt at this place?
A. Several thousand feet -- ten thousand I reckon.
Q.
Now, the land on the west side of Two Mile Run, isn't that land very rough?
A. On the west side, yes , just a part of it.
Q.
How many acres belonging to this tract is on the west side of Two Mile Run,
according to your judgment?
A. I couldn't tell you how many acres are on the west side of Two Mile Run.
Q.
How many are very rough, and how many are not very rough on the west side
of 'fwo Mile Run?
A. Right as you go in --- Well, I would say there were thirty-five or forty
acres there that were tolerable rough, and the balance is not rough, because
I have hauled over that.
Q..
Is the balance of it more or less than thirty-five acres?
A. Oh, there• s more than that,I reckon; yes, there is more than fifty acres
in there that I would consider smooth for mountain land.
-20-
�Q.
Do you think that anyone could cut end skin the bark on the land on the
west aide of Two Mile Run at a profit?
A. Yes air, I had figured once when I was peeling there just beyond it.
Q.
I am speaking of today.
A. Well, today, yes sir.
Q.
How many tons of bark would you think you could peel on the west side of
Two Mile Run on trees that were accessable?
A. Well, there's about seventy-five cords of bark there, the way I estimate it.
Q.
You estimate a man could peel seventy-five at a profit?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
What value, on the tree, would you give the bark?
A. Well, two and a half a cord.
Q.
Now, isn't most of the saw timber situated on this tract, located on the
west side of Two Mile Run?
A. Well there is a greater part of it on the west, but there is some on the
east side too.
Q.
The question is, isn't the greater part of it on the west side of Two Mile
Run?
4. Well, I guess it is.
Q.
Well, now, isn't the greater part of this timber scrub pine, with some
little white pine scattered?
A. No, I wouldn't call it scrub pine.
Q.
Well, what would be the average diameter of that pine?
A. The average - about twenty or twenty-five inches --- no, not in diameter, about fifteen inches in diameter.
Q.
That would be over one foot across the stUilll)?
A. Yes, it would average more than a foot.
Q.
Now, is there any grass of any kind growing on this tract?
A. Well, there is no grass sod. You don't get grass where you don't sow it.
Q,.
You don't?
A. You will get wire grass.
Q.
Is there any wire grass?
A. Yes there is, but other grass has to be sowed.
Q.
There has never been any grass sowed on this land?
A. Only up there where the clearance has been.
Q. What kind where the clearance has been?
A. Some blue grass.
A. Where it's sowed, it would be, yes.
Q..
Heavy sod?
Q.
How many acres of blue grass sod?
A. Over ten acres of blue grass in there. Grass don't grow without you got
clearance.
Q,.
Does blue grass come on this land naturally when you remove the timber?
A. Well , if you have sowed it. To get blue grass it takes feeding and
tramping.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL , VA .
- 21-
�Q.
You couldn ' t cut t he timber off and have it run into nice blue grass sod
very easily?•
A. Not without you would graze it.
Q.
Well, what would you graze? After you cut the timber off, there would be
nothing there.
•· There would be bushes . You couldn't graze the timber.
Q.
I will ask you whet her or not the land would run into blue grass without
putting stock to graze?
A. No, it would be neces sary for you to have them graze the bushes before
grass would come. That's the way you get grass .
Q.
You bought a tract of land adjoining this?
A. Adjoining the Hill Survey, that's the way I always heard it.
Q.
Where is this land that you bought loc ated; that is, is it at the foot of
the mounta in, on the slopes or on the top of the mountain?
A. Along the creek, what they call the Gap Run Creek; some of it lies
against the hills.
Q.
The greater portion lies along the creek?
A. Yea, some along the slope.
Q,.
How much was cleared .and how much was in timber when you bought it?
A. Well , there wasn't very much clea red at the time I bought it, about
five acres of it. Of course, I have cleared more.
Q,.
When did you buy this land?
A. I bought it two years ago.
Q..
In 1929?
Q.
Was there good timber on the land t hat you bought?
A. Sure there is some good timber on it.
Q.
About how many thousand feet?
A. About seventeen thousand feet.
Q.
About how much extract wood?
A. Well , I only got two cords on it because people had cut it off before I
got to it.
Q.
About how many cords of fuel wood was there on this tract at the time you
bougat it?
A. About three hundred cords.
Q.
A. Yes sir.
What did you give per acre for this tract that you bought?
I paid five hundred dollars for the
tract. They wanted a thousand for it and I would not give it.
A. Well, I never figured it close.
Q.
Why?
A. Well, I had two reasons, one was because I wasn't able.
Q.
Well, you bought ei ghty-seven acres at five hundred dollars a
, e, containing seventeen thousand feet of saw timber. What is that saw timber
worth on the stump, two dollars and fifty cents?
A. More than that; I wouldn't take less than five .
Q.
You bought seventeen thousand feet of saw timber worth five dollars a
thousand on t he stump, you bought land more easily ac c essable than the
land you have testified about?
A. No sir, the land that is lying with mine is about the same nature .
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL, VA.
- 22/, Z.I,
�Q.
I don' t know what you mean by " land lying with your's", of course there
might be a number of acres lying next your 's of the same nature?
A. Yes it is, goi ng on south, all this place, the Hansbrough land is the
same nature.
Q.
Well, you admit the saw timber on your land is worth double what it is worth
on the other land?
A. All of mine is right down in the bottom. Don't it cost a little more
to get it off -- and hardly any has been cut off mine.
Q.
Now, then, you paid five hundred dollars for the eighty-seven acres you
bought. I am asking you if that would not be worth arounct six dollars an
acre?
A. I figure something like six or six and a quarter.
Q.
And the land that you have is worth, on an average, per acre, more?
A. I paid that for it, and I put rnine in the clai m, fifty dollars per
acre. I have fenced mine, the greater part of it, and cleared the greater
part of it. That's why I put the value of it as I did.
Q.
If the other land were cleared, it would be worth fifty dollars an acre?
A. I put it at a reasonable figure, I thought.
Q.
I am trying to get at why you priced the four thousand acres as you did,
when you say you bought the eighty- seven acres for five hundred dollars?
A. I bought it for that because they were willing to take it.
Q.
And the lend you bought you consider worth more, on an average, than the
other?
A. Yes, standing timber and all .
RE- DIRECT EXMUNATION:
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER &ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL, VA ,
Q.
Mr. Mowbray, are there any ties on that four thousand acre tract?
A. There should be sane ties, yes sir.
Q.
How many, would you se.y?
A. Well, taken as a whole, you ought to cut a thousand.
Q,.
What are they worth on the stump?
A. Well, they have been paying twenty-five cents a piece for ties, Mr.
Hammer; that is, for the tie timber, twenty-five cents a piece.
Q.
On the stump?
A. Yes, and then they sell that from ninety on.
Q..
Your land is Tract No. 8 as shown on the blue print or map of the ti ve
thousand acre tract?
A. That was a piece of the five thousand once, yes.
Q.
And it is this tract known as No . 8, extending fran this point here down to
this point, and that is a narrow long strip of land?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
With the west land, that is the Hill Survey?
A. That is the way I have known that land.
~.
Now, through your land runs a creek?
A. Yes.
Q.
And over your land and through it and splitting it up is the public road?
A. Yes sir, practically along with the east side line.
�RE-CROSS EXAMINATION:
Q.
Now, you speak of being able to get ties out, would you
decre ase that from
the quant ity of saw timbe r?
A. Well, that depen ds on wheth er you peele d the bark and
then
and got the ties. Th.at is the way most of them do; only after went back
peelin g
seaso n, then they go back and get the ties.
Q..
When you testif ied as to the quant ity of stand ing saw timbe
r, didn' t you
consi der as "standing saw timbe r" what you are now speak
ing about as being
capab le of being manu factur ed as ties?
A. You can manu factur e it into ties .
Q.
Were n't you speak ing of this chest nut timbe r when you estim
ated your timbe r?
I
inclu
ded the
timbe r. I didn' t speci fy ties, but if you want to make ties,
you make ties.
And, to the exten t that you make ties , you lesse
n the timbe r?
A. Yes, of cours e you do; that don't lesse n the amoun
t of wh.e.t I said thoug h
A. That could come under the timbe r. When it was
timbe r,
Q..
Q.
Q,.
No, but I would like the Commission to under stand that you
do not mean that
there was two hundr ed fifty thous and feet of saw timbe r there
, and in addition, one thous and ties.
A. No, that inclu des the whole thing ; that inclu des the saw
timbe r, but,
you plain ly under stand that Mr. Shiff let didn' t go in those
runs
that I
said.
Well, Mr. Shiff let will speak for himse lf ---
A. Yea, he will say that he didn' t go in himse lf.
Q,.
And he'll tell the reaso n why he didn' t go into Two Mile
Run.
A. Well, maybe he will.
MR. O. D. SELLERS, a witne ss of lawfu l age, depos es and says
as follow s:
Q. Mr. Selle rs, you, I belie ve, live just east of the bridg
e at Islan d Ford?
A. Yes.
Q.
You, I belie ve, were born and reare d in that vicin ity?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
And have lived there all your life?
Q.
And engaged in saw mill, machi nery and timbe r busin ess?
A. Forty -six years .
Q..
Do you know the land known as the Hill Surve y?
A. Yes sir. I am not acqua inted with all of it; I have
been over it all too
I recko n, from time to time.
Q,.
You know the gener al chara cter of the land end you know
the topog raphy of
it, the land forma tion, the moun tains, and so forth ?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
About how much of that land would you say would be capab
le of being converte d into agric ultur e or orcha rd purpo ses, about what perce
nt?
A. That' s a right hard quest ion to answer.
A. Yes sir.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTR ONG
FRONT ROYAL . VA .
- 24-
�Q.
Just an estimate, from your knowledge of it, you can' t be exactly accurate,
I know.
A. Well, there could - -- No, I don't lmow hardly what to say in regard to
that, but the lower end of that land I am not very well acquainted with.
I would think ten percent.
Q.
You know where the J ordon Hansbrough house is?
Q.
You know that strip or land through there is fairly level?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
You also know where Will Shifflet lives?
A. Yes sir.
Q,.
Taking that land, as a whole , Mr. Sellers, what, in your judgment, would
you say the land would be reasonably worth per acre?
A. Well now, Mr. Hammer, you mean the land and what is on it?
Q.
I mean the whole tract, - an average price.
A. I have not been over that land for a good while; I don't know what has
been cut oft, and I have no idea, what timber wcbuld be on it, I would be
more interested in that than ~nything else; I wOJldn't be interested in the
land, or course, and I couldn't really make an estimate of the timber and
what it would be worth.
Q.
We will ignore the timber entirely, what would the land be worth ignoring
all claims to timber, reasonably worth, for grazing or any other purposes?
A. If you take the timber oft, the land -- well, anyone that lmows the land
--- there is a lot of it there could be put in orchard, as you say, well
that would be worth maybe ten dollars an acre, and a lot of it there, Mr.
Hammer, wouldn't be worth anything.
Q.
I will ask you this, what is wood worth in that section - colllI!lon fire wood,
on the stump?
A. Two dollars.
Q.
What is lumber worth; if there is lumber on that place, what would it be
worth per thousand?
A. Well a lot of it would be mighty expensive to get out, and all like that.
I could tell you if that was down in the flat.
A. Yes sir.
BY MR. A™STRONG: The question is objected to because it is too indefinite for
the witness to answer intelligently. The question should call the witness~s
attention to the varieties of timber to be manufactured into lumber, the location of the different varieties with reference to whether accessable or inaccessable and the character of the terain over which the logs, when cut, would
have to be moved to a mill or to a railroad station or other shipping point.
Q.
You are familiar with the location of the land?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
And you are familiar with the railroad as well as the other means of
getting the timber from this tract out to the public road?
A. Yes.
Q.
I em a s king you to give me an estimate of the timber, if there is any timber, fit for saw purposes, on that land, what it would be worth, on an average, per thousand feet stumpage?
§Y MR.
A™STRON.Q_: Question is objected to for the reason that this witness has
heretofore been asked by Mr. Hammer as to the timber on this land, and the witness has stated that he does not know what timber has been cut off the land and
what remains on the land, and, therefore, as he has stated, he is not in a
position to answer.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL. VA.
A. Well, Mr. Hamner, I can tell you what we used to pay for timber back
there in the mountain, but this timber -- to give you an answer, I'd have
to see where it is at. We used to pay ten cents a hundred back there in
the mountain.
-25-
�Q.
That would be a dollar a thousand?
A. Yes sir.
And :further this deponent saith not.
MR. E. L. HANSBROUGH, a witness of lawful age, deposes and says as follows:
Q..
How old are you?
Q.
Where were you born and reared?
A. I was born and raised on the Big Survey.
Q.
On this piece of land?
Q,.
Your father was George Hansbrough, who lived up above where Mr. Mowbray
lives?
A. Yes.
Q.
Are you familiar with that tract?
been over most every foot of it.
Q.
Have you ever worked around timber?
A. Some, yes, peeled bark and helped to saw logs and extract and stuff like
that.
Q.
Do you know whether or not there is any bark on this Big s urvey?
A. Yes, lots of bark.
Q.
How much would you estimate the cordage to be?
A. Well, about five hundred cords.
Q.
Do you know what i t is worth on the stump; what they pay for it?
A. Thirty-three.
A. Yes.
A. Yes, I guess I have
BY MR. ARASI':OONG: Question objectea to in its present form. Counsel for
petitioner asks Counsel for claimant if he means what is the present price
when he asks what they pay for it?
Q.
I am asking what would bark, at the present time, on the stump, located as
that bark is, be reasonably worth on the stump?
A. Well, they paid $2.50 summer before lest; last summer they didn't buy
any, so $2.50 is the last I know of.
Q.
Now then, is there any saw timber on this land?
A. Yes sir, such as pine.
Q.
Any chestnut oak, white oak?
A. Yes sir, there is chestnut oak, some white oak.
~-
How much timber could be sawed on that place?
A. I estimate two or three hundred. thousanu feet; two hundred and fifty
anyway.
Q.
How about extract wood - is there any on it?
A. Yes, there is right smart extract .
Q.
How many cords would you estimate it to be?
A. Well, there would be five or six hunctred cords.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL . VA.
- 26-
�Q.
What is lwnber, on the stwnp in that mount ain, situated as that timber is,
reasonably worth?
A. Well, I think they have been paying three dollars a thousand around up
there, on the stump.
Q.
What is the extract worth by the cord, in the mountain?
A. A dollar and a dollar and a quarter. Some of them pay a dollar and a
quarter.
Q.
What amount of fire wood would you say you could cut on that place, or cut
to the acre on that place?
A. Some of that land there you could cut eight or ten cords to the acre.
Q.
How many cords would you estimate could be cut on that place?
A. l don ' t exactly know, it would be a good many thousand; l wouldn' t like
to say how many cords of fire wood could be cut.
Q.
A good many thousand?
Q.
What is that fire wood worth on the stump in there?
A. I reckon about fifty cents on the stump.
Q.
There where your father lived, what size house is that where you were born
and raised; do you lmow the size of it?
A. I reckon it was somethi;:i.g like l8a;20 •
Q.
A. Yea.
What is that house reasonably worth, the house itself?
A. Well, I don't know what it would be worth at this time. I haven't been
there at the house for a couple of years.
Q.
Well, assuming that it is in the same condition now that it was two years
ago, what would it be worth?
A. Well, building and all-----
Q.
Just the house.
A. I reckon it would be worth two hundred dollars.
Q.
What other buildings are there at the place?
A. Well, there is two outbuildings, and there was a granary there when we
lived there and a small barn. I think some of them have been torn down.
Q.
How many apple trees was on that place?
A. There were thirty-five or forty.
Q.
Good condition, or not?
A. We left them in good condition.
Q.
What are they reasonably worth a piece?
A. I don't hardly know what they would be worth. They was a good hardy
fruit.
Q..
What kina?
A. Yorks and Ben Davis and Smokehouse and the Andrew Milan and the Yellow
Transparent and a couple Cooper Martin.
Q.
Were you ever up at the other end of the place where Will Shifflet lives?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Do you know that house?
A. Well, it has been so long since I have been there, I wouldn't hardly
know the place any more. I haven't been up in there for, I reckon, six
years.
Q.
LAW O F F ICES
WEAVER 8c ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYA L , V A.
Do yo~ know of any places on the property that minerals of any kind
exist?
A.Well no, I don't believe I do.
- 2?-
�Q.
Do you know where the kaolin bed, or that white chalk is, east of the
Will Harrison place?
A. No.
Q.
Mr. Hansbrough, what, in your opinion, taken as a whole, making all
allowances, is that land worth on an average, per acre?
A. I would say fifteen dollars an acre on an average.
Q.
Why do you say it is worth fifteen dollars; give us your reasons?
A. There's lots of good land there that can be cultivated, and there is
right smart timber on it, and up in there where we lived there is lots of
good land there that could easily be cultivated.
Q.
What use, if any, can the land be put to?
A. For grazing purposes, for ranging cattle. We have kept lots of cattle
up there. We kept them up there for Mr. John Weaver when he lived. We
pastured twenty-five up there every year.
Q.
What did Mr. Weaver pay you for grazing them up there?
A. Yes, he paid us for grazing them up there.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. A™STRONG:
Q.
Would you mind stating your age, Mr. Hansbrough?
A. Thirty-three.
Q.
Do you own land within the Shenandoah National Park area?
A. I don't own no land.
Q,.
Have you ever owned any land?
Q.
What is your occupation at the present?
A. Well, I have been painting for the last three years.
Q.
Prior to that time, what was your occupation?
A. I just done anything that came to hand then. I worked in the mountains,
timber, peeled bark, I worked at that.
Q,.
You never bought or sold any land?
A. No sir.
Q..
You never contracted to buy or sell any land?
A. No sir.
Q.
Did you ever sell any timber?
A. No, I never sold any timber.
Q.
Did you ever sell any tanbark?
Q,.
Any pulpwood?
A. No sir.
Q,..
Any fuel wood?
A. No sir, I never sold anything.
Q,.
Your business has been to work for someone else?
A. I worked for the other man, and he done the selling.
Q.
You have never figured on the cost of cutting timber, hauling it to the
saw mill?
A. Well, I have cut by the cord for people, I can tell pretty well what
timber is on this land.
Q..
When you speak of timber, you are refering to saw timber?
A. No, I wasn't counting that.
Q.
When you speak of cutting t:l.mber by the cord, what are you referring td>?
A. Such as extract wood and fire wood and stave wood and stuff like that.
A. No sir.
A. No.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FIIONT ROYAL , VA .
-28-
�Q.
You know what you have contracte d to cut it for by the cord. You don't
know what it costs to haul it to market or to the railroad station?
A. Well, I don't know what it costs - -
Q.
You don't know what it costs to haul it from the railroad station to market, freight rates. You don't know what it costs to ma.mifacture stave timber into staves?
A. I don't know what it costs, no, but I know what they are paying for
stave wood at Elkton.
Q.
At the railroad station?
A. $7.15 at the railroad station.
Q.
Paying that for it now?
Q.
You don't know the cost of getting a cord of wood off of this four thousand acre tract to the railroad station at Elkton?
A. Well , there has already been roads cut all through there and wagons
go over it.
Q.
Is anyone taking wood from this tract to the railroad station at Elkton
at the present time?
A. No sir.
Q.
Did anyone deliver it last SUmmer?
A. No sir, not since Mr. Hosiah Shifflet' s death.
Q.
Did he deliver some?
Q.
Have you any idea about how much?
A. No, I don't have any idea.
Q.
Which do you consider the most valuable, on an average, the tract of eightyseven acres which Mr. Mowbray bought, or the remainder of the four thousand
acres, on an average? Do you know the tract that Mr. Mowbray bought?
A. Yes, I know which tract he bought.
Q.
Which do yoµ consider the most valuable, on an average, or per acre, if
you like?
A. Well, there is more timber on this other tract, but his is the most
valuable by being down on the road.
Q.
Isn't the land that he bought smoother that the balance of the four thousand acres, on an average?
•· Yes, he's got more smooth land, but you know you never found real
smooth land on a creek bottom, but up on the raise from the creek, you will
find just as smooth land as there is anywhere.
Q.
How many acres?
clear up through there.
Q.
Which would you consider the more valuable of the land per acre, Mr.
Mowbray's or an average of the four thousand acres?
A. Well , on an average, this other l and is worth more; it would bd worth
more, yes, it is off the creek and it is smooth, and there is a good bit of
timber on it.
Q.
Isn't the value of timber usually fixed by how accessabl e it is, as to how
easily it is gotten to and moved?
A. It can be got to very easy. There has been wagons all over the mountain
back there. There has been bark hauled out there.
Q.
Has this four thousand acre tract been burned over?
A. That has been several years back since it was burned.
A. Yes sir.
A. He did.
A. Couple hundred , up the flat, all the way
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL , VA .
-29-
�Q..
How long'?
A. I don't know exactly how long it has been; a good many years though.
Q,.
Before Mr. Hosiah Shifflet cut his timber?
A. I think it was.
Q.
No fire since that?
A• .I'm not certain; I wouldn't say, I don't think so.
Q.
Do you know of any land in your neighborh ood of the same quality, or
of approxim ately the same quality as this four thousand acre tract that
has been sold within the last five years, other than the Mowbrey land?
A. Well, I know of his land being sold.
Q,.
Do you know of any other?
A. No other, no air.
RE-DIRIDT EXA?ilNATION:
Q,.
Do you know how many cords of wood a man can cut a · day? How many cords
of wood can you cut in a day, extract or ordinary fire wood?
-• Well, we always cut two of us together, ana we put up three cords a
day.
Q.
You mean one man?
A. No, two men.
Q.
How many trips can be made from there to Yancy or Island Ford with that
wood?
BY MR. A™STRONG : ~uestion excepted to because the question does not designate from what point.
Q.
Well, any point on this survey?
A. From that hollow, four trips to Yancey, and from Two Mile Run, five
trips to Island Ford.
Q,.
How many trips to Elkton?
Q.
Do
A.
Q.
A. Three.
you lmow what they charge for a team a day?
They always charge you so much a cora.
How much do they charge for hauling a cord out?
A. I don't know. Marvin Fleck hRulsi some at a dollar and a half a cord
for Edgar Wyant.
Q,.
Q,. ·
Where did he get that?
A. On over there on that mountain east of the Mowbray land. He made three
trips with that.
Where he got that was east of where your father used to live?
A. No, it was over on the Blue 3idge side.
Q.
Onr"farthe r yet?
A. Yes, he made three trips to Elkton.
Q.
Where is Yancey, what county is it in?
A. Just two miles north of Island Ford, just between lllkton and Island
Ford.
Q. Do you know whether or not there is any steady market at Elkton, Island
Ford or Yancey for fuel wood?
A. No.
Q.
LAW O FFICES
W E AVER & ARMSTRONG
For Extract Wood?
A. Well, they all ship it.
FR.ONT RO YA L , V A.
- 30-
�Q.
Q.
Is extract wood being shipped in large quantities this year?
A. Not this year.
Is anything being shipped th is year?
A. A little •.
Q.
Where to?
A. Luray, I think it was. They had a contract and they just finished up the
contract.
Q.
Do you know of any contracts this year?
A. No sir.
Q.
The contract was for former years and they were just finishing up this
year?
A. Yes.
Q.
Isn't it a fact that there is no market for extract at the present time?
A. I don't know whether there is or not .
And further this deponent saith not.
MR. E. C. MOWBRAY RECALLED:
BY MR. LEVI:
~.
Is there really any market for wood there, Mr. Mowbray?
A. Well, there is just market around where you sell some, just short
market, you might say. I have just been placing a few loads, a few cords.
Q.
There is no real market there then, as you might say?
A. No, no real market; just when a family needB a load of wood. I think
there is no market for extract at the present time .
DIRECT ESAMINATION F:l MR. AFiMsrRONG:
MR. C. H. BURRAGE, a witness of lawful age, deposes and says as follows :
LAW OFFICES
Q..
Mr. Burrage, will you tell the Commission in what business you are now
engaged?
A. Examining land for the State Commission of Conservation and Development.
Q.
How long have you been in the employ of the State Commission of Cons ervation and Development in connection with the examination of such lands for
purposes of acquisition for the Shenandoah National Park?
A. ApproXimately eighteen months.
Q.
In what counties have you examined land for such purpose during that time?
A. Warr en, Rappahannock, Page, Rockingham, Albemarle and Green and ?~dison.
Q.
I should be glad if you would state to the Commission, in detail, what your
duties are and how you undertake to discharge such duties in connection
with your work.
A. My duties have been that of locating property and surveying and maping tracts for soil types and cruising timber and valuing grazing l ands,
fann lands, val11ing buildings and other improvements .
Q. :iMr. Burrage, what preparation, if any, have you had for engaging in the
work in which you have been engaged since being in the employ of the
WEAVER &ARMSTRONG
Fl't.ONT R OYAL , V A .
-31-
j.
�State Commission of Conserv ation and Development?
A. Graduate Forrest er trom the Univers ity of Geo:rgia and have been in
forrestr y work for the last fifteen years in State, Nationa l and private
employ.
Q.
FolloWing your graduati on from the Univers ity of Georgia , what kind of
work did you do?
A. Worked for the United States Forest Service on the acquisi tion of land
for Nationa l Forests .
Q.
Did your duties in that connect ion require you to cruise timber lands?
A. Yes.
Q.
And to place values on the land and the timber, both?
A. Yes.
Q.
How long were you engaged in that work for the United States Government?
A. About four years I guess it was.
Q.
In what states and in what mountai ns did you work on that assignm ent?
A. In Virginia and in the Shenandoah Forest and North Carolin a, Georgia,
Alabama and Pennsyl vania.
Q.
About when, if you can recall, did you leave the servj_ce of the United
States in that connecti on?
A. In 1922.
Q.
In what business were you next engaged after leaving the service of t he
governm ent?
A. Distric t Fire Warden of the State of North Carolin a.
Q.
And you were engaged in that service about how long?
A. A year.
Q.
What next did you do?
A. James D. Lacey and Company, of New York.
Q.
Who is James D. Lacey and Company, of New York?
A. They call them timber land factors. They handle almost everythi ng
connecte d with timber lands, dojng every kind of consulti ng forestry work.
Q.
What particu lar branch of work did you do whilst in their employ?
A. Mostly cruising timber and securing busines s, looking into deals and so
on.
Q.
And then did you go to Ithe State Conrnission of Conserv ation and Development,
or did you do some other work in the meanwhile?
~s . I was Foreste r for the Univers ity of Kentuck y?
Q.
And anything else before you came here?
A. No sir.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRON G
FRONT ROYAL . VA.
Q.
I take fran your answers that you must have had conside rable experien ce in
crui sing timber and examining and valuing timber lands, is this true or not?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Have you examined the lands in question here, namely, about four thousand
acres, covered by the claim of Jacob Yost, Trustee?
A. Yes sir.
Q..
In what months of what year did you examine that tract?
A. December, 1930 and January , 1931.
- 32-
�Q,.
How did you know you were on the tract that we are now talking about; in
other words, I would like if you wruld tell the Commission how you go
about your business?
A. This tract was largly located by our Civil Engineer on the base
surface furnished by the owners located on our base map.
Q.
Did you have a map of the premises in your possession when you started out?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
I hand you herewith two maps and ask you if these two maps are maps of the
land which you visited, examined and cruised, and if they are the maps of
the lend we are now talking about?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Those maps were furnished you by Mr. Marsh or one of his engineers, is that
correct?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Did you cruise the timber upon this tract upon your examination of the same?
t. Yes sir.
Q.
Did you use any particular method of cruising, or did you rely upon an
ocular examination?
A. I made an ocular examination in expectation of making a detailed examination if there was enough timber to justify it. After going over all
the land, I decided there wasn't enough merchantable timber but what an
ocular examination wculd suffice.
Q.
I understand your answer to be that you could see the timber by going over
the land, and there not being enough timber to justify a detailed cruise,
you made your report on the land from what you saw by going over it?
A. Yea sir.
Q,.
Did you go over the whole t ract c aretul.ly?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
What kind of merchantable timber did you discover on the lend?
A. Yellow Pine, small sizes, an occasional tree of Red Oak and Chestnut Oak.
Q.
Did you make a report in writing of the results of your examination?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Who did you make that report to?
A. Mr. Marsh.
Q.
Have you that report with you?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Will you. refer to that report and tell the Commission the number of feet
of merchantable timber that you found growing on this tract?
A. Two Hundred thousand board ~eet.
Q..
What does your report show to be the varieties comprising this two hundred
thousand feet?
A. Oak and pine.
~.
How much oak and pine?
A. They are not separated because of their being of no value.
Q.
What, in your opinion, is the value per thousand feet of this growing
timber covered by your report?
A. Uncter present market conditions, no value could be asffi gned, but it
has some value , of course. About a dollar a thousand was assigned to it.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER &ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL , VA.
"31
�LAW OFFICES
Q.
That would be two hundred dollars, then?
~-
What else of value in the way of timber did you find on this tract?
A. A small amount of bark.
Q.
What kind of bark?
A. Chestnut oak bark, tan bark.
Q,.
How much bark did you find?
Q.
What, in your opinion, is the value per ton of that chestnut oak bark on
the tree?
A. At present?
Q.
I am talking about the time you made the view?
A. It would be hard to figure any bark value; I would give it a nominal
value of fifty cents per ton .
Q,.
What else of value in the way of timber or wood did you find on this
tract?
A. There is sQ!le fuel wood on the tract, and we figured that one thousand
cords of it would be merchantable.
Q.
At what value?
Q.
How about extract wood?
A. Well , there was a very small amount of extract wood in the most
inaccessable places. No large enough quantity accessable to be gotten
out at a profit.
Q.
Now, of this two hundred thousand feet of saw timber which you found,state
whether or not that is in one body or is it distributed over the whole
tract, or whether or not there may be two or more large bodies canprising
the two hundred thousand feet, or state whether it is so scattered as to be
not worth the expense of cutting and sawing .
A. The one hundred fifty thousand feet was estimated on Two Mile Run, which
is sanewhat scattered, but more or less in one body, and on the northern
portion of the tract about fifty thousand feet, which is pretty well
scattered.
Q,.
Now, the one hundred fifty thousand feet on Two Mile Run, state the topography of the land on which this is situated; that is, as to whether it is
level land or steep; state whether it be smooth or rocky; state the
character of the terain as to the difficulty or lack of difficulty in
cutting and removing it, ability to locate saw mill sites for purposes of
manufacturing into lumber the one hundred fifty thousand feet you have
spoken of.
A. The country is very rocky with both large cli ffs and a great deal of
loose rock, mostly steep, sane level. It is possible to put in a saw mill
seat and to log the timber to it, although the cost would be very high on
account of the small size of the timber and the difficulty of logging it.
Q.
Is that the reason why you have fixed the price at a dollar per thousand
feet on the stump?
A. Yes, in connection with market prices.
~.
Then, I will ask you what, in your opinion, is the fair, cash, market
price of the standing saw timber on the tract unaer consideration.
A. Well , I would hesitate to say , at the time I ex8I!lined it, that it had
any market price. This value of Two Hundred Dollars was given largly as a
nominal value.
Q.
Then I understand your answer to be that, in your opinion, two hundred
dollars for the two hundred thousand feet is a maximum value?
A. Yes sir.
A. Yes sir.
A. One hundred tons.
A. Fifty cents per cord.
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL, VA .
- 34-
�Q.
How about the tan bark; what, in your opinion, is the fair, cash, market
value of the hundred tons of tan bark on the tree that you found on this
land?
A. Not over fifty dollars.
Q.
What, in your opinion, is the fair, cash, market value of the fuel wood
that you found on this tract of land?
A. Not over five hundred dollars.
Q,.
How many cords of fuel wood did you find?
A. One thousand.
Q.
Now, Mr. Burrage, do you mean to say that there would only be one thousand
cords of fuel wood on the whole four thousand acrew, or do you mean to say
that no more than one thousand cords could be cut and removed from the land
without costing more than the fuel wood would sell for?
A. Not over one thousand cords could be removed without loss.
Q.
There mi ght be more than one thousand cords, but the residue over one
thousand would be so inaccessable that the cost of cutting and rernoving
it would amount to more than it could bihH£ld for?
A. Yes. Of course, one thO'USand cords is/ would be considered ordinary fire
wood.
Q.
Now, did you find aey appme trees of merchantable varieties growing on this
land?
A. I found fifteen trees, but I couldn't say as to the varieties.
Q.
Do you know about the age of the trees that you found?
A. No, I should say between twenty and forty years.
LAW OFFICES
Q.
Had those trees been well taken care of?
A. Not especially.
Q.
Did they show any affects of having bee~ well pruned, or show any affects
of spraying?
A. Not recently.
Q.
Did you find any buildings on the land?
Q.
Did you measure the buildings?
A. I measured part of them.
Q.
Who was with you and helped you?
A. Elmer Monger.
Q.
Will you tell the Commission what houses you found, the condition of the
houses, and what, in your opinion, would be a fair, cash, market value of
the houses?
A. At the so called Jordon Hansbrough place there is a log house l4xl.8 with
a fr811'.1~ lean-to of 8:xl4 and one of l0xl6, in poor condition. A value of
eighty dollars would cover it. The houses at the other place I did not
happen to measure myself. I saw them. The house was occupied.
Q.
State the approximate measurement of the other houses and the conditions
and value of the other houses, if you saw them.
A. The house on Mile Run is frame, l4xl8, with a kitchen 8xl8, in fair condition.
Q..
Worth what?
A. About a hundred and seventy-five dollars.
Q.
Take the other houses and value.
A. Those are not houses, there are some out-buil dings.
WEAVER 8c ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROY A L , VA.
-35-
L~---- - - - - ' ~ - - - - - - ~ - - - - - - - - - - - - ~ -
A. Yes.
�Q.
I mean any buildings.
A. On Mile Run in connection with the house just mentioned, there is a log
barn, possibly l4xl9, fair condition, worth about forty dollars. The
meat house 8xl2, is worth about ten dollars, and at the Jordon Hansbrough
place there is a smoke house 8xl2, in poor condition, valued at fifteen
dollars. A hen house, frame, 6xl0, poor condition, valued at five dollars.
Q.
Is that all the buildings,now?
A. There is another hen house here, I think must be on Mile Run, of 8xl0,
poor condition, value, ten dollars. Those are all the buildings.
Q.
State whether or not you examined the different types of soil on this tract
of land for the purpose of ascertaining the value of the land?
A. Yes sir, I did.
Q.
How do you go about classifying the soil; do you just make one arbitrary
valuation of the\tlole land, regardless of whether it is steep land or flat
land or top of the mountain land or sides of the mountain landf ~ell the
Commission how you do this.
A. The system of land classification which we have been using and which is
practically the same as that used by the United Sta t es Forest Service in
their appraisal of lands. The tops of the mountains or similar soil is
called ridge top soil, and on an average that soil will not grow trees that
will have a sixteen foot saw log. The slope type land is generally found at
lower elevations, and the soil is of such quality that it will average
growth to sixteen foot saw log per tree, and then the lower soil is of such
quality that it will produce timber two or three or more sixteen foot saw
logs per tree. The clea red land is classified as tillable land, grazing
land and restocking l and - that is cleared land which has been abandoned
and is restocking for timber.
Q.
Now, will you tell the Commission the number of acres of the various
types of soil, divide that amongst the types that you have sta ted it is
your custom to divide in examining lands, and the value of the acres of
the different types there.
A. Ridge type, 1688 acres, value fifty cents per acre, total $844.00,
slope type, burned over, 22 acres, value $1.50, total ~3 . 00; slope type,
unburned, 1750 acres, value $2.50, or $43?5.00; slope type, ?28 acres, value ,2.00 per acre, or ~1456.00; and thj.s cove type, 20 acres, value five
dollars, total e100 . oo; tillable, 9 acres, value $12.00, total ~108 . 00,
making a total of 4229 acres, with a total land value of ~6916 . 00.
Q.
That is the soil itself, exciusive of the timber and wood now standing on
it?
A. Yes ; that is merchantable timber.
Q.
How far is this tract of land from the nearest railroad station?
•• Well, the average distance would be between two and three miles .
Q.
What kind of road is there to the property?
A. Dirt road, fairly good , ungraded .
~-
State whether or not the grea ter part of the tract is steep, or just
gently rolling.
A. A great part of it is steep.
Q.
State whether the greater part of it is rocky or smooth.
A. The greater part is rocky.
Q.
Very roc ky, or not?
A. Very rocky, both many cliffs and much broken rock of all sizes.
State whether or not the grea ter part of the tract is of fertile soil or
barren soil, or what kind of soil .
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER 8' ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL , VA .
-36-
�A. Well, it would be classified much greater barren than fertile.
Q,.
Much has been said in the testimony taken on behalf of the claimant to the
effect that the l 8nd is valuable for the timber it will grow in the future .
From your knowledge of timber and timber lands, state what might be expected in the way of future timber on this tract; that is to say, when would
land of the cha racter and fertility such as this, produce merchantable timber such as poplar, pine, oak, and so forth, as would do to cut add saw and
put on ~he market.
A. Well, the ridge type would probably produce very little except chestnut
oak and possibly a small amount of yellow pine. Of course, without making
detailed growth studies, it is hard to BiVe a close estimate of the possibilities of it.
Q.
I would like you to tell the Commission, as nearly as you can, on this
pa rticular tract of land, because of the character of its soil, about how
long a man might reasonably expect to have to wait before second growth
timber of value would get back enough to be worth anything.
A. On the ridge type, with proper fire protection and some aid, he might be
able to produce ties in fifty years.
~-
And saw timber sooner or later?
Q,.
The slope type'?
A. the slope type will produce more chestnut oak than other, but some small
red oak, st all amount of popla r, yellow pine, occasional white pine, white
oak and scattered species.
A. Probably never.
Within what period of time?
A. With proper fire protection and culturi1 attention, it could produce
saw logs in fifty years.
Q.
Something has been said in regard to the value of a certain por tion of this
l and, particularly adaptable or fit for t h e growing of apple trees for an
orchard. Do you know, or did you find any par.ticular a rea of this tract
that you regard as excellent for this purpose?
A. Well , along the western border there is a very limited area that might
be used for fruit production, but the cost of production would be rather
high.
Why?
A. Because of the nature of the topography. While the land i s rather smooth,
it still lies up on the mountain slope.
Q..
Steen?
A. No, not steep, but higher elevation. You would have to haul up ferti l izer
spray ma terial, and so f or th. It is higher elevation and there is alAO
Quite a good deal of rock through there. You will f ind small areas free
from rock .
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER 8c ARMSTRONG
Q.
I will ask you whether or not you own an orchard.
A. Yes.
Q,.
Where?·
:'- .
St ate whether or not, in order to be succes sful, an orcha rd has to be put
on fertile soil, or whether you can be successful with placing it on thin
soil.
A. Probably a small percentage of orchards put in ·thin soil can be made to
pay by very intensive methods, but, as a rule, most profitable orchards
are on fertile soil .
Q,.
I s there a commer cial orchard growing on the mountain side anywhe:-e in the
neighborhood o~ this tract that you know of?
A. Not that I know of .
A. North Georgia.
FRONT ROYAL , VA.
- 3?Ytl
�Q.
Have you had an opportunity to discover?
A. I have within the Park area.
Q.
I will ask you to look at your various values, or elements of value that
you have testified to as making up the value of the land under consideration, and ask you to state what, in your opinion, is the fair, cash, market
value of this tract of land.
A. Eight thousand sixteen dollars.
r. .
For the four thousand two hundred twenty-nine acres?
o.
That includes timber, bark, land and buildings?
Q.
And you have made a careful study of the ~ract for the purpose of arriving
at would would be a fair, cash valuation of it?
A. Yes sir.
A. Yes.
A. Yes sir.
The value that you have given is not an arbitrary or a guess value?
A. No.
cross EXAMINATION BY MR. HAMMER:
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER 8c ARMSTRONG
A. Thirty-five.
Q.
How old are you?
Q.
Speaking of this land, when did you go on the land?
A. December, 1930 and January,1931.
Q.
What day of the month?
A. I couldn't say without reference to my notes.
Q.
Where did you enter the tract of land, at what point?
A. Well, the northern portion was examined first, and probably about the
northeast portion was where I first went over the tract.
Q.
At what point did you enter the property?
A. Well, I can't say where I first entered it, because in connection with
working around adjoining tracts along the border when it was convenient, I
would enter this tract and work over it.
Q.
Where did you enter, and which way did you go?
A. I can show you on the map, which would be much quicker ana more intelligable; roughly, on the northern border.
Q.
That is on the north side next the Hawksbill Creek?
A. Yea.
Q.
When you entered it there,at what point on thet line down to Marvin Long's
did you enter?
A. Where it adjoins George w. Baugher.
Q.
When you entered it at this point, where did you go?
A. Up toward the top of the mountain and the interior.
Q.
From there where did you go?
A. On that trip I went back toward the boundary toward the Baugher tract.
Q.
You did not cross down to the Piney Gap road then?
A. Not at that time.
Q.
Did you ever make a trip through there?
Q.
Did you ever make a trip down from the mountain to the Harnsberger land?
A. Yes.
Q.
How many days did you spenct working on the whole tract?
A. I would say approximately seven or eight days.
FRONT ROYAL, VA .
- 38-
A. Yea.
�the whole survey?
Q,.
On
Q,.
In seven or eight days you could hardly cover the whole five thousand acres,
could you?
A. Yes sir.
Q,.
In making your scale, you made no scale of the lana, did you?
A. I didn't cruise the land, as I understand the word.
Q.
A. Yes.
You just went to some high point and looked over?
A. No sir, I made trips over all the portions that I could not see from a
distance, and I saw all parts of the land. It has been brought out which
land is very steep and can be seen from a distance.
Q.
There is no trouble in getting timber from this side of the mountain, is
there?
A. Yes sir, that timber is up in the cliffs.
Q.
It has been done in the past. You saw roads up in there, didn't you?
In other words, roads leading from the top of the mountain in toward the
Urias Shifflet land; there are also roads leading down from this section
toward the Harnsberger land; there are also roads leading by the Crawford's
house and by Bart Shifflet's.
A. There are roads there, but the timber is not quite on these roads.
Q..
Have you ever worked in the woods, ever peeled bark?
A. I have seen it done.
Q..
You know how it is brought down to the roads?
A. Yes, sure.
Q..
There are roads leading, as I say, from out in this section down to the
Shifflets, crawfords and back to ?rank Shifflets, roads coming out here at
the old Neville Crawford place where Mr. Mowbray was talking about this
morning; there is a road down by John Sipes; now then, going down to where
Mr. Mowbray lives, there is a road from the mountain into this place just
this side of the creek. On a little further by the Jordon Hansbrough place,
from that road leading up toward the Hansbrough place, there is side roads
where bark and other stuff has been brought out?
A. There were roads, but they are mostly washed out now.
Q,.
On the west side of the mountain on the tracy lying to t he S'outh, there are
roads leading in, back and from Mr. Sipes property; you know where that is?
A. Yes.
Q.
Into that mountain where timber can be orought out?
A. Yes.
Q.
There are also roads up by Mile Run?
A. Yes.
Q..
Two Mile Run?
Q..
People been living in there?
Q..
In fact, all over that mountain it is honeycombed with roads where they
have gotten out timber from that land?
A. My point is that the present qb lity of timber ~ould no~ be got ~en out
at a profit.
Q.
Did you ever manufacture any timber?
Q.
Where?
A. I have worked in saw mills in this country and France during the war.
A. Yes .
A. Yes .
A. Yes .
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER 8c ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL. VA.
- 39-
�Q.
As a matter of fact, when did you enter school in Georgia?
A. 1911.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
Q.
And how long did you attend that school?
A. Four years.
Q..
So you were fifteen \lhen you c8Ille out, a year at Georgia College of
Forestry, you were sixteen then. You spent sane time in Kentucky then?
A. That was later on. I was born in December, 1896; I entered the United
States Forest Service just before I was twenty. My title was Field Assist ant, cruising timber, examining land.
Q,.
And now, where did you study the soil, what school did you attend to study
the different types of soil?
The University of Georgia, as well as in experi ence ih doing that kind of
work in forest service. They use practically the same system of soil qualification as the Conservation Connnisai on has used.
Q.
You are entirely a stranger to the vicinity in which this land lies?
A. Not exactly, I worked here in the Shenandoah National Forest for a year.
Q..
They had nothing to do on that side of the mountain?
A. No, but I worked on the Blue Ridge in North Carolina and Georgia.
Q..
This soil is not, of coursei Blue Ridge soil?
A. Yes sir, that is par~1B!t1~ Ridge.
Q.
Isn't this land here more or less of a volcanic upheaval, rather than the
Blue Ridge, which is a younger mountain?
A. This is a spur of the Blue Ridge .
Q..
Have you never noticed the difference in the soil lying on the west side
of the creek as you go across Si:mrona Gap and that which lies to the right?
One is right lean land and the other is fertile land, and that division
runs all the way along the side of the Blue Ridge mountain.
A. I have noticed it more distinctly in other places.
Q.
You figure fifty thousand feet of oak and pine at a nominal value of a
A. Yes.
dollar per thousand?
~-
That is on the northern end?
Q.
What makes that of so little value; what is to prevent that timber from
being gotten off?
A. Because it ia scattered, and the small size and inferior quality of the
Umber and the difficulty of logging over the rough country.
Q.
You said something a while a go about the inability to get seats to locate
mills. How many old and recent mill sites did you find on that piece of
land?
A. I don't recall, but my reference, of course, was sites for logging
present timber.
Q.
Now, within that line south of the road leading from Yancey o~ Elkton to
the Blue Ridge Simmons Gap, did you go up the lane to the Hansbrough house?
A. Yes.
Q.
Did you go to the top of the mountain?
Q.
You found a lot of land on top of the mountain, black loam?
A. Well, it v.as loam.
Q.
And in that, there could be cleared several hundred acres of fairly good
land of reasonable slope, not steep at all?
A. I don't know about several hundred, something over one hundrea.
A. Yea.
FRONT ROYAL . VA .
- 40-
A. Yes.
�...._
Q..
When you got around on Mile Run, you could do something similar there?
A. There is a rather small portion of this tract that lines on Mile Run.
You see the clearance line comes away down on Hile Run.
~- Do you know where it comes there?
A. I know approximately. I don't know the nearest foot.
Q,.
Well, between Mile Run and Two Mile Run, what is the nature of the land
along there where Will Shifflet's house is located, isn't that pretty fair
land?
A. There is a stretch there along the boundary that is fair .
Q,.
You said something about an orchard. Isn't there an orchard up in there-I have always unaerstood there is a
Mr. Karicoff's. How large is it?
pretty good sized orchard in there.
A. I didn't see it. I don't know where the Karicoff place is.
Q,.
It lies in there to the east of Rocky Bar.
A. I did not see that orchard at all , no sir.
Q.
Now, there is roads all on this side down back there where A. Shifflet
lives and those fellows?
A. There have been old bark roads down there.
Q..
People live down in there right next to this place?
A. Yes sir, one or two places.
Q.
Give me the aggregate again of your values?
A. You mean the total value?
Q.
The total, and separate each item.
A. Just the land?
Q..
Dand, timber and all.
A. By soil types?
Q.
I don't care how, just so I can figure on it.
And further this deponent saith not .
MR. JACK SHIFFLEI', a witness of lawful age, deposes and says as follows~
Q..
Mr. Shifflet, do you mind stating your age?
A. I am fifty-eight years old.
Q.
You have just heard Mr. Burrage testify -- you have just heard him say of
what schools he is a graduate and what courses he took in school. Of what
school are you a graduate?
A. The shool of hard knodks.
Q,.
Where do you live?
Q..
How far from the tract of land that we now have under consideration?
A. About twenty miles.
Q..
What has been your business during the greater portion of your life?
A. Timber business pretty nearly all my life.
A. Dayton, Rockingham County, Virginia.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER Sc ARMSTRONG
FRONT RO YAL. V A.
-41-
�t. Have you had experi ence cruisi ng timber ?
Q.
A. Yes.
Have you had experi ence in manuf acturin g timber into lumbe r and
marke ting
lumbe r?
A. Yes.
Q. Both on your own accoun t and as agent or employee for other person
s?
A. Yes, both.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER 8c ARMSTR ONG
FRONT ROYAL, VA.
Q.
For the sake of the record , I will ask you to state in as few
words as you
can the experi ence that you have had in the past twenty or twenty
-five
years in the timber busine ss.
A. Well, I have been opera ting in lumbe r from one small mill to
half a
dozen, and I have had charge of as many as thirte en or fourte en
mills
at a
time and on differ ent occasi ons I've severa l big mills, and a
good many
years experi ence in bark, peelin g, gettin g out and marke ting and
just general superv ision of cost and ~rodu ction for mysel f and others .
Q.
State wheth er or not you are now in the employ of the State Comm
ission of
Conse rvatio n and Develo pment?
A. Yes.
Q.
How long have you been employ ed by it?
A. Sixtee n month s.
Q.
In what capac ity are you employed; that is, what do you do genera
A. I check the estima tes on timber , mostly . I go and check the lly?
estima te,
as well as work out the cost of produ ction, remov al and marke ting.
Q.
That is, when a timber cruise r is sent out and when he turns in
his report ,
your duty is to take his report and go back and view what he has
report ed
on and ascert ain wheth er or not his figure s are approx imatel y
correc t?
A. No sir, I never see his report until after I make a report .
Q.
You go on behind him and you turn in a separa te report from his,
and afterwards your two report s are checke d with each other?
A. Yes sir, it is a check both ways on cost and quant ity.
Q.
In what counti es have you worked for the State CoI1'llllission of Cons
ervati on
and DeveloprnentT that is on the kind of work you have just told
of?
A. In eight count ies, Warren , Rappah annock , Page, Madison , Rockin
gham,
Augus ta, Albem arle and Green.
~-
I take it then, you were pretty famili ar with the chara cter of
the soil
and types of soil and timbe r as to variet ies and qualit y growin
g in the
Blue Ridge mount ains within these ei ght counti es?
A. Yes. From a timber standp oint, unless I em working on clea
ring, I do
not try to separa te the timber .
~.
State wheth er or not you ever visite d the J acob Yost tract of
approx i mately
four thousa nd t wo hundre d twenty nine acres, for the purpos e of
and testin g as to the quant ity, qualit y and value of the timber ascert aining
growing on
said tract, and if so, tell this CoIDinission wha t you found.
A. I did. Th e estima te of two hundre d thousa nd board feet of
lumbe r, one
hundre d tons of bark and one thousa nd cords of access able f ire
wood on tha t
Yost tract. I might say in additi on to that one hundre d fifty
thousa nd board
feet of lumber was in Two Mile Run. The remain ing fifty thous and
is just small
pine that would possib ly make two by fours, just scatte red all
over the
north end of the tract, too small to cut, and scatte red white
pine in rough
places , not easily access able.
About how many tons or cords of ten bark would you say there a
re on t he property which can be peeled and removed withou t loosing money?
A. That's a pretty hard questi on. I don't believ e you can remove
any of it
withou t losing money. This tract ha s been operat ed on for the
last twenty -five
or fifty years from the appear ance of the roads
- 42-
�A. (Cont'd.) The rest ot the timber is just scattered - a tree here and
there over the tract. I think it has, from time to time, been operated on
and burned over until there is hardly any merchantable timber on it, only
at rough, rocky places.
Q.
That is where you found the bark in Two Mile Run,in this rough, rocky land,
and it oould not be operated today, at today's prices, at a profit at all?
A. It wculd cost more to get that out taan what it wwld bring.
Q.
What kind or soil comprises the greater
hundred twenty-nine aore tract -- is it
or thin and poor?
A. I would aay f'air as an average; some
where we put the wood estimate, on that
portion or this tour thousand two
good rich mountain soil, average,
of' it is very poor. Right down
is nothing but sand there.
Q.
That is very poor soil?
A. I don't think it would be profitable to ever put it in orchard or farm
it, from the looks of' the crops I saw there on the lower land.
Q.
Mr. Shifflet, from your experience, as detailed by you, and tram your
knowledge of' t irnber lands and t irnber land value, I will ask you what, in
your opinion, is the tair, cash, market value ot this tract of four thousand two hundred twenty-nine acres, including land value, timber value and
every purpose for which it is ada ptable, to your best judgment?
A. We found a valuation of eight thousand dollars. Personally, I wouldn't
give five thousand for it.
Q.
You think eight t housand dollars is a maximwn value?
A. Yea.
CROSS E:x:AMINATION BY MR. HAMMER:
Q.
Mr. Shifflet, as I understand you, you and Mr. Burrage did not know anything about each other's values or estimates at all?
A. No. It wouldn't make a very good check if' I was going along taking his
figures.
Q.
How is it possible that you two fellows are identical in your estimates of'
the amount of lumber, you both agree that there is a hundred tons of bark;
you both agree as to the wood, and you both agree that the value of the
land is about eight thousand dollars? How is it possible, without knowing
anything about each other's estimates that you could be in such close
agreement?
A. I can explain that in very few words. When I cane in and make up my report, then they show me what the cruisers make. When I am too low sometimes I agree to take their estimate because they examine it more thoroughly
than I do. If I think they are too high, then I take them down. I take
the water oourses, hollows and coves, and wo rk it out f'rom the standpoint
of a lumberman.
~- You did not know what }Ar. Burrage's figures were. How did you happen to hit
so close to them; no difference in the values, in the amount of lumber,nor
difference of a halt a cord in the fuel wood?
A. How can a lawyer find so many technical points to work f'rom? We are
trained, just as you are trained in law.
And further this deponent saith not.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER 8c ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL, VA .
-43-
�MR. WILLIAM SHiffl..ET, a witness ot lawful age, deposes and says as followa:
Q.
Mr. Shifflet, do you mind stating your age?
A. Fitty-tour years old.
Q.
Mr. Shifflet, do you liTe in Rockingham County?
Q..
How long, or rather, how near to the tract of land under consideration?
A. About tour milea.
Q.
Are you pretty familiar with this tract ot land?
A. Yes, I have been on it a good many times.
Q..
What is your business, Mr. Shifflet, it you don't mind?
A. Right now I am running a tilling station in McGacheysTille.
Q..
A. Yea.
What was your occupation before that?
A. I have worked, most ot my lite, in timber; some fo1· myself and some for
other people.
Q..
Q..
State whether or not you have been actively engaged in this timber business
up to the .la st th.Bee or four years.
A. Yes.
State whether or not you have ever cruised standing timber.
A. Yes sir, I have.
Q.
Have you ever cruised standing timber as a cruiser for other pBople?
A. Yes sir.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER 8c ARMSTRONG
Q..
Have you ever been United states Fire warden?
A. Yes sir.
Q..
Since what year?
Q.
Have you ever held a similar position with the state ot Virginia?
A. Yes.
Q..
Since what year?
Q..
State whether or not you have been over this Yost tract once or often.
A. I have been over it quite a few times, in places. I haven't been all
oTer it at one time. They would have a little tire and I would be over it.
Q.
Have you ever hunted oTer this tract?
Q.
State whether or not, as an employee of the state Commission of Conservation and Development, you have ever looked over the Yost tract for the
purpose of ascertaining its value or the value of the timber?
A. Yes, I went over it with Mr. Jack Shifflet.
Q.
Well, now, did you go over it pretty thoroughly?
Q..
For the purpose of ascertaining the quantity of the timber?
Q..
What, in your opinion, is the number of board feet of merchantable timber
of all varieties standing on this Yost tract?
A. I doubt if there is a hundred and fifty thousand feet. Some are small.
You might get a litt le more, but I don't think there is over a hundred and
fifty thousand feet.
Q..
What, in your opinion, would be the f'air, cash value per thousand teet on
the stump of the merchantable timber that you think is there?
A. 1913.
FRONT ROYAL , VA ,
-44-
A. Yes.
A. Yes.
A. Yes.
�•
A. There is same of it, very little in my opinion, but some of it might be
worth a dollar and a quarter; it is a kind of pine that don't sell very
good.
Q.
Is it what you call scrub pine?
white pine, small.
Q.
Is the timber, for the most part, situated on rough, steep ground?
A. some on land that ain't so rough, but mostly on Tery rough land.
Q.
A.Mostly; now and then you find a
Is there any grass growing on this land?
A. There is some wire grass and some brush.
Q.
Q.
And any good sod?
A. Nothing worth mentionin g; not very much.
State whether or not the land, in your opinion, will run into blue grass
sod after the timber is out oft.
A. It would have to be taken pretty good care ot; after it had been tramped, it mi>ght, nothing near like the top slope land would.
Q.
State whether or not the land is what we call a natural blue grass land.
A. No, I don't think -so.
Q.
State whether or not you have any knowledge as to this tract having been
burned over frequentl y.
A. Yes, at different times.
Q.
state whether or not the soil itself showed the aftects of the fire.
A. SUre it will, that especiall y down in the bottoms, the top soil is in
poor condition .
Q.
State whether or not you found, as a result of your investiga tion that the
vegatatio n and the soil had been injured and consUlled to a large extent by
the fire so that it would not now produce young timber.
A. I don't think along the tops of the mountains would for a long time. It
would have to be taken care of. Down in the bottoms it might.
Q.
What is, in your opinion, the value per acre of the different kinds of
land that goes to make up this tract?
A. I don't think you could make six percent interest out of six thousand
dollars on there.
Q.
Then I understan d, in your opinion, the fair, cash, market nmlue of this
tract could not be in excess of six thousand dollars?
A. I wruldn't like to say it would be worth any more.
Q.
You know of no method by which a man could earn interest on six thousand
dollars on this land?
A. I know I couldn't. Somebody might.
BY MB. HAMMER - CROSS EXAMINATION:
Q.
You can hardly make six percent on anything these days, can you?
A. No, its hard to do it.
Q.
How did you happen to miss the amount that Jack mentioned ?
A. Jack and I worked over it and talked over it.
~-
Why didn't you get together? You testified laat; he don't put his figures
quite the same.
A. We worked together and all that and Mr. Jack was just where I was. we
didn't figure together at all.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL, VA.
-45-
�Q.
What did you do? Where did you go on the land?
We first went on the land up at
A. I went praetically oTer everything.
Two Mile Run; then we went, the Dext day, up past the Jordon Hansbrough
place and up by the Mowbray land and then came on down there and went on up
on the mountain.
Q.
Where did you spend the night?
A. At home.
Q.
Did Jack stay with you?
A. Yes.
Q.
What time did you leave home that morning?
A. About seven thirty.
Q.
And you got to Two Mile Run about what time?
A. It would take about thirty minutes.
Q.
How did you go?
A. We went in the car.
Q.
All the way in the car?
A. No, we lett the car and walked on up the hollow.
Q.
Did you go back around where Ed Shifflet lives?
Q.
Were you up Hanson's Run?
A. We went up back of Sipes and over there in across trom the Yancey land up
in there, and right as you go up Simmon ' s Gap and above LoTells.
Q.
Where do you get in there?
A. Up over the mountain, right straight up over the mountain.
Q.
Do you know where Hanson's Run is?
A. I don't know it by that name.
Q.
Do you know where Mr. Crawford lives?
A. Yes. We went straight up the mountain there.
Q.
You did not go back by Bob Williams place did you?
A. Not by Bob's place. We would go up in one place and work around and come
back in another place.
Q.
You did not make any systemized cruise, did you?
A. I was looking for timber, to be honest.
Q.
How many times were you and Jack in there?
A. I would have to look on the books to find that.
~-
You ought to know how many days you spent on this five thousand acre tract.
A. No, I couldn't.
Q.
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER Ile ARMSTRONG
FR.ONT ROYAL, VA.
A. Yes.
Do you know when you were there?
A. I would have to get the book and find out.
A. SUmmer.
Q.
Was it summer or winter?
Q.
When the leaves were on the trees?
Q.
It's a little more difficult to see then than in the winter?
A. Yes.
~.
A little more difficult to cruise?
Q.
How long be tore you were there was Mr. Burrage there?
A. I don't know.
Q.
A. No sir.
You don't know how far apart you all were?
And further this deponent saith not.
-46-
A. Yes sir.
A. Yes.
�MR. S. H. MARSH, a witness of lawful age, deposes and says as follows:
s.
Q..
Your name is Mr.
Q..
Do you mind stating your age?
Q..
Are you employed by the State Camnission of Conservation and Development?
A. I am.
Q..
In what capacity?
A. In charge of the examination work in the Park area.
Q.
You are known as the Park Director?
Q..
How long have you been employed in this capacity?
A. Anproximately eighteen months.
Q.
There are eight counties in which areas are sought to be condemned in this
proceeding for the Shenandoah National Park?
A. Yes.
Q.
State whether or not you have visited the greater part ot all of these
areas in each of these eight counties.
A.Yes.
Q..
The three gentlemen who have just testified have been employed by you in
connection with this work, have they not?
A. They have.
Q.
I see in your hand a fj]e of papers: what are they?
A. That is the report that was prepared describing the tract in question;
the report and the map.
Q.
Mr. Marsh, I will ask you to file that report for the use of the Board of
Appraisal Commission, and I will ask you of what that renort consists.
H.
Marsh?
A. It is.
A. Forty-five.
A. Yes.
A. The report consists of descriptions of the tw~ tracts of land. We recognize two tracts there because ot the tact that the tract is out in two by
lands of other owners. We, therefore, called it two tracts and gave each a
number so as to more easily locate it on our map. The report includes a
soil valuation, valuation of timber, valuation ot improvements, and a total,
of course, of the whole.
Q,.
From what information was that typewritten report made up?
A. The renort was ltllde up from the examination of the CllUisers and fran the
checked report of the Check Estimator.
Q.
By the Cruiser in this case, do you mean Mr . Burrage?
A. Yes.
Q.
And by Cheok Estimator, do you mean Mr. Jack Shifflet?
A. Yes.
Q..
Mr.
Q.
For what purpose did you go on?
A. I went on for the pu:l'pose of examining and ascertaining the Talue of the
tract of land.
Q.
What do you know about mountain lands in this sectioh of Virginia, and what
opportunities have you had to discover the value of mountain land and the
value of timber growing there --- I will ask you,in the first place, of
what schools, it any, are you a graduate?
A. Graduate of Yale University.
Q..
Academic course or something special?
A. Forestry course.
Marsh, have you been on this tract of land yourself?
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER &ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL, VA.
-47-
A. Yes.
�Q.
What nractical eroerience have you had as to forestry, forest lands and forest products, such as timber, trees, and so forth?
A. I entered the United states For-est service in 1911 as a timber cruiser
and was engaged in the cruising of timber for the United states Forest Service until 191?. At that time the Shenandoah National Forest was established
and I was made SUnerintendent of the Shenandoah National Forest, with headquarters here at Harrisonburg. That forest included the Massanutten and part
ot the North and Shenandoah Mountain Ranges lying in the northern part ot
Rockingham, Augusta, eastern part ot Highland, eastern part of Pendleton,
eastern part of Frederick, western part of Shenandoah counties, and comprised about a halt a million acres, most of which was acquired during the time
I was cruising timber and examining land in this connection, and after the
establishment of the Shenandoah National Forest in 1917, the work of cruising continued from 191? to 192? at the time I left this forest. In 192? I
went into the Washington otfice and worked out of that office for two years
betore going with the State.
Q. .
Now then, Mr. Marsh, from your experience and observation as to ascertaining
the quantity and value of the standing timber and the value ot the different
types of soil in the mountains of Virginia, and particularly in the Blue
Ridge area sought to be acquired tor Shenandoah National Park purposes, I
will ask you to state what, in your opinion, is the fair, cash, market value
of the four thousand two hundred twenty-nine acre tract for all purposes,
land, timber, buildings and any other purpose for which it is adaptable.
A. I consider the price ot d eight thousand and sixteen dollars, the price
estimated in the report, as a tair value for the property.
Q.
Do you base that on the report or upon your own observation?
A. I Place it on my own observation and on the findings of the cruisers and
check estimators who were on the tract.
And turther this deponent saith not •
••• 000 •••
LAW OFFICES
WEAVER & ARMSTRONG
FRONT ROYAL, VA .
-48-
�sturdy, Do mb r 12, 1931.
Co
Pr sent , s
ion
t 1
r
Vir 1
e •
of'.f'lemyo •
ifty-1'1v .
o?
o your
9
t1f1e •
1
t of
bou.t thr
?
l kto n,
•
No
is yo
Y 11. I
v
xc pt
Coun. Y•
Rook ingh
County?
n
oo
I
life
....
?
yo
.T
d by
7
111 you.
rh
t
tir t duly
• . Dof.tlemyor ,
l' 0
on y eta day.
d cl
Counsel for petition r
r.
terday , and
on y
ion r
i
oooup t i on ,
1Inber mot of my
orking 1
n
en ea 1
fflemy r
1• .
bout
y, h v
·n1at off1 1 l po 1t1on , if
you h ld in Roo ingham
County?
a
I
A
ionor . 1ght ye r .
o d Commi
Stone
n h t Di trio ?
Q,
my f th r un 11
11 , I
n
' 14, I believe ,-- an
~·,
oul
or
I
1th
ho
c. o.
e r ved
ok r Com-
oux f
her .
hat
1e
ork?
,
ea
in t a
you.
Sina
00
oul out so o timber , too,
•
nd drove tho t
t h a b
n t
r.
ploye
n
e b
11 1 I contr ot
it on
bou.t 1912 or '13 ,--
eom • a.n
d
then
t.
right
t Lur y , w
g iith
rt of th
of your
h ul 1 t.
or
ro
you
1h11
: 11 . I
I
?
t Lur :Y•
Q,
n· tur
beri
•
eloot&d Rod Commi a1oner and
a
in hat until 192J , and th n I worked
pany
Di tr1ct,
be n y ur experienoe in l
I/hat h
Q.
l
1
of your
n
1t h
h
oker Lumber Co pany
by t h
o out
ut1 a.
d
ul it and
eliver
�/
....""'.
fell the Oommi ssiOnEJl.'8 sanething of the nature of the
Q
oont2'aot that you have .
Woll , th& firet contract l had with him was the S'.o.if.tl&tt {?)
A.
estate , 55 aol'os.
tiSJ'lber ,11th him.
Re oom.e up there• a nd · ebd ma to go over the
And we went over 1t.
And lle naked ma how ma..,y
feet I supposed was on it; and X said 350 . 000.
traoto4 taking t h$ stump and putt ing it on the, ear.
'Vell, d14 the reau.lta bear out yau.r estimate?
A
Yes sir , it cut out 370 1 000.
What othat- contra cts di4 you. havo?
Q.
I hud a eon u-act with him ouet o:t Elkton. and .I out them.
on the same plan , aut and delivert1d 1 t and put it on the car.
Q
Did. you. have other oontraota in other :parts o! the State?
A
Ya
sir • then we bought two traote 1.n .Albemarle .
Ni th him on thoae
n,o
I was in
traots .
Thon you. have had oon... iderable eXI>Orionce in estimatt ng
Q.
the amount o t timber . on traots and then :following up youl' eetima te
by aa1iua.l ma.nu.tac t uring?
A
Yes e 1r • ma.nu.fao tu.ring.
You wore asked bf tho elaiinanta 1n this suit to go upon a
Q
pa.rt of the Mount Vernon traot and make es timate s ot timber?
A
Yes eir • .
Q,
Will you ~.t a te to the Commis~1on whioh partia ot the l.!ou:nt
Vernon tri1ot you went cnrer • and the time that you epen~ oll ea.ah
tract?
A
"/011 1 I went 1n Two Mil e
Run . and spent one do.y :i. n
Two
l:ile Run, a.nd one do.y in One M:1J.e Ru.n , and three days 1n lUg Run.
Q.
Will ygu tell the Commission what method of ost1mat1rg the
timber you ma; u.eed?
,.\
used.
Well. I uaed praot1oa l ly tho same method tha.t I have alway,
I eat t1mbe~ har8 I
hink y ou oould get enough to Just ify
getting a saw mi ll, and cutting 1 t; and I would estimate that plaoe,
a.nd then go
on to t~e next , trod on thro~ .
.
�11th
you
as your e ·1m
ta
200,000
tha
.1
0
?Ull?
pr
h mloo
r1et1
timber
inv
ly-
ueh
0
on of
t o!
tun
on th t
e
95,000 f et.
tract
en I ;ant in
e ll ,
bran.oh
ot in
ro~d, but 1
re 1
ig
t
un ,
Th
ou.nt 1, to
the foot of t
w,
11
you .toun 1
Th
th :t
ou tell l
un
you oon inu d up 31
I
Jiah you
Q
o ,
yo
so th t th r
ou
on b
ap.
t
b
Ju t
f ollo
o
h
y
t t
ine,
1
on h
l.l
t
n,
ber th
n the 1
o1
t
e
It 1e
e ...
eek
on J
1e Collltlia
OU
no oonfuaio
•
d
•
Run?
th
bou
•
ounto.in
t i •
. owid.
t
r
:1::aia is
r
bofor •
,
th t .:.
t!
r
d
n.
PI
here • .
other
1
t
0
i on
1
Co
• n xt d y I
ell,
tin
ext hollo .
1
p Uy
1
lde of t h e
tl
r
oc 1 on
otion 1
t
OU
other .
a ; t
~
I follo
i g oo • in ther.
· ke the
t
o e bolt
•t o
a1
?
old m
g
e left to . or
to
t1t when I
up
our ,o k on i
t of
e ~ea
fu t
1
.i.le Run?
on O
nd oth r
in
e.sti
yo
I
e l.
is pr otio
hemlock in it, bu..t ihite
a
?
t .. a e?
in
re 1lt o.t you.
1 11. th
th
1 ' or on
of
ne an
at was
a
ile
the typo ot tiJnb r th t you f ·
a
o 11 1 t .
Q.
i
•
1noip·
hink yo
n
y o\l
I
,olcon t
e
r
, I ao
s would ba
•
-
- - - - ~ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ~-
- - - - - - -~ - -~
.__ct 55
�en up n come out
y, I
11e n xt
tir t creek.
•
i
u t
your o ll,
you
r or no
r , vhet
torritory you o
ll
ot
lef
h
1 e.
u
_ou
:1.-
0
0
t
0
OU
to yo · l ft.
u
o t
up
goin
1
oi
0 10
vi ion in the main e tro
Di
ide, t
nd
l eft
ook in only th
·I
oth of
\l
I v nt up t
You
o t
t go
i
o air.
.1.:1
l.
•
a re
i
e
ep
I
... e
t
nt
t
fir
h
nu I
e
d
stre
•
ne
ay
• You
ill fin
n
of
e Blue R1 ge,
o iard
.a
OU.
ll • to
d- t 8
ine u:p
hit
, or
ot
?
i
JJ.
1 ft.
n
a
0
r
:r ,
0
ff
ht
h the ho lo .
up thro
e pl a
te
you
u.
on t ose streams
ou
en up
I
branc.
t
n con 1 .1.u.
Q
.1.~
r.
v•
1
o
f
•
top.
f
n I
of
nu
i
1f1
ppe l'ing here and here.
the
ou.ntai
f ca the le!'
e h
r
n r te
· than those cross marke
t to
o t
I didn ' t e y I
wh ther
t
1~
o • I , ent up
00
fi
h ther
p
.hoth_r y ou
to th
h
I
0
on y
you .ent u
.t1
an
I
u ,
t
r
ny further
o
111 y ou
tu.
"S
4.
_____ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ __ __ _ _ __;___ _ _ _ _
~--~~~~--
~5~
�~.
s tar
Yee e1 , I -,e t ol a n
o h of the •
nd of the hollow i n
e
~
1n 10 ti~
I
th t you
noil.
en xt
1.0
ini
tl
1
you.
P n
ti
0
I
hut ,
u.t
l?
.fUith r .
in-
bout f 1v
y •
t
0\1
tt
Ollld Oo
ne trib t rie
e
ti
Th t
u
·i
ey
t.
ti
day
t to o
1 n •t
I
ot ho t ,
t
0
t territory
I int n e
ir ,
o
tont1on
p
not oom on t
i
up t i ... m 1n
e ti.ti d th
n r
:r.
ent to
the hollo 1 went.
...
t of th t
tiJn
I e t
long th
is
'
r o d 1n
1
1 tt
- t of
I
i
't
1 bcr i'rom
1
r
h
-1n ro
al •
t
1 a•
on
nd £ tr' .
ou.
ae
l , 00 , 000
ot
id
u
l1 oh you
Run
i
It
" a mou tni •
et ill
I follO\Jtid
thn
ribut
bout 12 hundr
You
ossi ly} ul t
from
st e number of feet of timber that you a · a
.-bat
th, t
H'
1d
l · ft hand
ho
b ok to
mil
or k.
thi
takon
an
1 e,
i
1
oul
th t moun
only on "·h
n
r
Y a
__
?
ir.
urn r ,
•
oaJu.ao ion i
th
id
you?
io air , I never
aoverod
lac
a
.•Jo •
of eovor
not s e;t.
u
rk
mai
• to th
oov r
~
8
a
1 . 20 , 000
0
1
un ro
o
of the moUll
?
• you d1
o
ro· h .
t of ti
t
;.0
'
U
0
' y u.
at
t:t
h
of
to tif1
r in i
or
urner di
t you
runs nio
rt o ·
it w
r
r.
little territory n
e 1ec..
t i
e n
di
h
0
'
on t
:P .
1
ll
I
n?
no
cov
h t
1
n
hioh
•
ir.
loS7
�Now , I
tur
d
ould like for you to
of
rel , ,
or
r
·a11 1 th
Y, fro 10 t
uJ.d e
t11r1ng lumber, 1
in
air . I wou..1
o or t he ar
t te
ah
a
in t
n
lo
any plnoa
t
nk
or
to ,ell ituatod
a1lro·d
In an rf8r1ng that
ho
t h t timb r
railr
d
110,1ld b
~ti
a:
Island
ia Where 1
r. Tavenner:
·e ll ,
tro
s ohea:p.
I never done
nd the
ha
l
e.wi ng it
on 1 t aae tht t i t 1ou.l
an
b
o s&.
tt r of fact , i n 't th t tilllb r 1n close 1.>r,oxi
B
Q
timbor there as
ut the ou t ting it
nywher
ver·w· oo t?
h
t
lso, und oa n a w it
oo,.. t to 1t than
ted
ao.
iv :rin."" i t to the railr ad I 4Di:
d
rd mo.nut o-
otten out'?
nk you oould ou
ountain.
8
or
et er it 1a e1 tu·ated so th t the eost o:i..
t
WOU.l
1h1 to pine .
th t you cru1 ed sit
o tt1 u that tinlb r 1a ei thor below or above
ell, I
oa",
other pine runs,
xp rianoe in con•raot1
thi s 1
ifil l you
Q
ond day ,
0 88
d
•
e si ze o:f th t pine?
fine s i z ; t
1
d
ro1;1
th
:pine ,
nd pine
y about
o th· t it c n be proti tab
Yo
oa,
o tly
18 1noho .
from your
01 ,
to
white
go t into lhi t
t
d w
o you h. v
fu t
I
k
ro
1 of that is p1no.
11 find
0
as
l
ood half m1
hollow, thc,n
u.p
t
ed th mount in around.
1t 1
d you
k
0
I foll
the ti
wh n I rent
Spani h
i d , on the fir t day 's oru1 e
I
trea.m.
main
branches
g Run.
o u
pint
~ho slz
to the C rnmi sion the
quality of the pine that you saw up on thos
or tribu r ie
ju
t
t
?
Y s
d liv r
oro.
o
1le
Here 1
e
J. rO
hi
a:
• ill
ivor
1
thi
1 tee to th
k r 1.:.)h t here .
uni
o l~le
1lroad runs -- ther
'lkton oall-- d the Old Port
11'.
ill you point out o
uee'.'tion .
ty
lo d t
un.
1
a mowit in rod rune
.nd Isl~nd
or
st tion i
ap
�,.
t
j
il
bou·" h · lf a
rig ta
t i
thon
uth
aul
r
~
.. t oon r te
est rn
ll.'0
ro
r et?
ua pu
1
don 't
thore
t
qu
tar o:t a
11
the oon-
ulin
la,
for t a
mi ht
out min r l
n..y y ar.
01·8
o e i
nd it
1g
d
ortolk
e
y
0
It
10\:
there ,
d ..
ile
of
1
..
o in One
.d
or ,
ai
ile R •
0
.I.
ut
ale I tl
t 1
0
lo
•
...
u.n, ther
m1
m
&
.... y u. ·,ou.ld com
. un.
.n you
• ro Is .n _ord, , ou turn
l
pur
•
n old
in
u
hink th y di<l.
I
.n
I don 't
ork it aom .
If you took he p •io
nd f eo
tho
ra
a
t .... t1fie
r
s , 1:J.r . hiplet
woul
£.y
OU
0
0
till
e vall.11
d
au
y
0
~.
a.to'
l'J.ez• , wha. t
t
r th t you sa od on
tu.mp?
t ho
ell, it it
2. 5
1 t,
it to the
og i ,
i lr
d,
r 1n o
I
th
o t you
oul
d
ould b
. oo
to
15.00, an
it'
ta~
5.00 to h Ul
1 . • 0 otf
22. 50 would
7. 5 •
1
U:1
sider t l
gin of ,7. 50 ,
V
h t wo ·ld you con•
" lu .
I
t !i
\
l
s
•
a
01
1
ay tha t , a . t lo s ,
yos
v....
U
oul
ir, you w u
Cl
oll
0
P•
0
bo
ery r
ao1 blc.. valu
, t
·ould y u
!01•
that tim-
d d livering it.
It
�a.
ey
I
j.
trou.t
po
i le
on
on
t
· 1 • tro
"'Wl•
"horo.
,,
in
ow di thor tho
In. On l 1
r •
use tr
o
oing ny \ or
t out
0
f 11,
0
11
, One
of w t e
n
p
o you
th
0
V r'l
· · 11 ,
A
ile R
\ 0
•
thtJS8
$
rioe, it would be r
t that
ell it
yo11 ooul
t,
a
u
0
• pl
Yo
ir,
r.
(
1d e t
1
.
0
l.i
Co flm1
truok
re
vennor co ti ui
· shed
d
1:0.
hat.
r
t co t to put 1n
ld
0
•
1
:rid e t
ee
ctory for t
ti
b
e, 1n
n
uet
8
eaftlly to hu
U.00
ht to
0
ch
n
un.
i
e,
r1
aion:
t er it
oti.1.
r bort, -- ho doaa 't go u
80 0
on '
I
•
--
t
•
On
·1tn a
boy
r'
oul
er, thore
t
u.n t d.
ruck
ia
1
ent in on st-
and it
I
rn.
ol
t
re uo tly
r oft
out
t
OU t
olf, but
much .ti.im
l
co. 1n ,.
a
d dogs and thine
omi
a tr 1
I me
n ' mor
in --
tov
h d
rat , h
y
of hauli
po
p
CJ'
or
otJ doll
for
Jue us
•
oeiler •
omb r of
th
a "t of
o
that ti be
•
Co ,1
io C
uttin
tl ose
yo
at woul
o s 1 to
aon ider
1t1
n to
OU
d
l
o e
~
tro
e
f
t
r1 _, to t
t
tr ver~ed
18
itn,
b
..•
0
on:
th
r
oo .. d into t
1r.
Y
t
tio
1, but th
8,
�f
rod, out 1 e of
• tho cot
Run it
a.tor
pl eea ihere
ould be
e 1i
t
:
t
s
e Co
1ea1on:
1r, I
J
o
,pl o
rnuld
look d a t any e ti
10
to the creek.
l n •t pl aae an
·v
oul
to
a fi lled i n
e.
t
nd hunt and ti
rid rep ired.
•
I nover
ta • .
be in On
Only
e an e t1m
to go up in there
( r . Tavenner conti u1
11
).
You stated t
e 1:r.
Ye
Run?
t mot ot the ex-
5 ,000 fe tin One r ile R •
th r
you
ould
ot o~
e pu lio rod very oloa
t _Vi rnon p o rt , woul.4. yo
o
You
uld h te to p
ure ua d tor peopl
tho
out fro
ubJ ct mor
a t e?
:t.tne e:
our
that w hed out?
I
of
.o
t
o ld ooat
·1tno
· pens
n
f or te bridge, but
m mber of
O!
ot 1
a
ir.
hor
i
o th
not?
a. big
o · d, thou. "li , right up olo - to One
11.e Run.
Co
ther
1, ioner:
ouid it Just ify
alter t · t
uoh t1mb r?
.Vi tne
a no
11 1 I
hi
r oad , it would
1
OU
a
( r . Tav nn r aontin J:>8) •
rod, oonatruot1on ot ro
b
ow, if you ha
•
1ft re
ro d up 1n
to build
t propoe1tion ," but you
o e o d pl o a.
only ti
a.t t o hundred
u1ld1
ol
10
you oona der t h
of tha t bridge
the build1n
taotor in
r e. any
qua t1 on of
tti
out t t a lum-
r?
o
tru. k an
go
ir • I
o .' t I b
ck in there for tii le •
strong
o
it
loJJS
snot
It is not
e
14 you a
t &p.
You could tako
teep.
witn ss .
you e
orki
?
i1. ve days .
�10. -
r 11? = Ye
1,ng
Y,
.vi a
is
.
is
h
X
Ho
f
a 1
No
tho
s:
o wh r
:
r
I •
1i tn
ount
ir.
tr et, or,
th
1
1 n
here I live.
n
from tho lands , fr
f
a:
I
you
V
you
XQ.
le
( rou. ... ton?) .
ti
11v
tint
Q.
Q
_ e 16
OU
I haa
iho •
X
air.
I li
?
y ••
1s
bout ten or elove
r
i l ea .
r
or .
( }h
O\J
_s i •
l
v r bee
on this
ot befor
t
i don •t think
1 •
. , s any otller p r o
ut t . .
in e
. ni.o
XQ.
OU ?
o
..
ir •
8
I had the m 1>•
x
you.
D
No
ve the m p ·11 h
ir.
"OU?
tr. GoOd
, hon I
:..Q.
akod
I
11.y
·f
t
:xnnder tract of
y u
!.l'
1m
h
in Fir t
" s in up to t
R un,
1
r.Shifflott told
st y
le
uo
X'
eyo .d
er on
l on
You
r
y
t r
t
poreonal
tanoe I h
ha
of
tr
th1
i
!
tim
?
t.
sir-.
is repu.t ti on?
You •
Y?
e never
- d.
s
f
8Z'i
onn ind
u
!n
d
s
o you kn
R
f r
nd, and
ell , I think 1
Q.
O'fl
en
t
I h
•
r.
eo l ,
i
1
s
d suodese
s
ir.
nd a
�Did you
XQ
im te t i y
or
a cl 40.000 t
er
rong?
on
I v
t of timber over
1f it
r1
e
o 11ty th t you foun
crt in oint
d e ah
you ooul
e
f
1 bar in
Im
t
•
'
~
d
u
e lo-
no
of
I rnuld co e to
00 •
to JU
uld
to saw it,
fy
envolo e in my pooke, ju.st hoVi
id you aru.ise
In
any foe
I
e
un , 200,000;
OU
nd 1
1
OU
.ig
e 1
oul
in on
Yes
?
o
u.n, 95,000; and
~le
•
.f'iv
VO
?
d
le
11 , th t
X
8
Y•
How
tw lv hun
1 •
o ;ht
or::: . I h- a
e oh d y•
orui
e
h
t\
eo1 s
0
• I
th
to
re until h
ossible
trot
of thi
ve done it.
m mi t
?
Im ht
k _pt
You. kaQ not sot t
the
ot ot
th
o
ouJ.
1:r.
o divi
e
by fivo,
oul n •t
yo ?
ore t an other •
I
Som
1111 y
t
l
n•t
o eir , I h
d?
it .
I
tl O 1 and t e
athtyu
0
y
l I k t.
i
I J ot i t on
memoran-
•
d
ell, t
Q
Thi
"
h. t
in tio
(A 't r
t bl ) :
t 1
i
typ
I
ing you for .
a
a er
f
o wins
ritten memorn.ndu.
Do
ou
had.
o
on
~e
ork a typewriter?
1 •
{o
e ot wh t you id?
So thi
ro
d he t pewro e it ott.
ah it off to Ir. od ,
I
at
i
tho r
id you
ur o
n did you
I
ll
you. vr
of
Q
i
d
dwn?
1th
i
r. Tu:t'ner
d compare 11th him
roao.lts of hi - or
t 1
1t on the 17th, I t inl:,--
hom .
It i
?
0
1r.
?
ne
it
11.
�0
il'.
o
didn •t do any
o ir. navo r id.
111 et
0
Q.
wh t
X
e?
d
yo
find on
~le un?
Don 't you
ow?
O thou.a
foet to tho ..; oat.
roti t
to
thre e seat
k
w uld
u e i
i,, b
oul
h re
h
thro
timb
ke }.t
that
.t wou ld :run ou
I figu r d
uoh.
nk 100, 000 or 125. 000
tl
wuld n'
e, 96,0 00.
nive d s t t he od
onde ring how you
YOll
thir y
lumb er.
too .f' r to h·ul
I
h
You 1oul h v
anuf otu.r
t.
eet to tl
d
It wou ld run b
Yi a sir.
the
i r e.
<f
o t timb er to
t eon 35
et 1 t to ethe r, to
as n ar rig t
ould
s
o s ir.
95,0 00?
1h01
u.ntin,g or t
I aup:pose
st nd pr otio .11
n
1
oul
fort y thou s n
Q
at
&
t
d rriv od
• Turn er
er of any figu res
id you ever
X
hat t e .
id
Notw 1 thet and i ,.,. the .tact that you h ave juet s
thir ty
ould be b t e n
Wl
d
fort y thou
nd ?
t thy vould r
l
would run t hirt y to fort y the and .feet .
On 0 i l un, you foun 200 , 000 f o
of 1
I told you .ih t I thou
ppos ed they
Yes sir.
V ry 11 ttle o·
'Q.
~ot
zy
J
1
or
th
t 11
t o .. id ou
lloue a d to t
didn ' t
it
r
it
tl
You oa
at i
I
t. of,
e
t.
I
idn ' t
illled
Yee sir. ·
t yo
th t
ooul d
it
on ' t 1uppo e I
od ca o ully , didn ' t y
ht I
l
?
3 ,000 f e .
ifte n pr c
y ou aa
t
ink "
!ift ee
El
Do y ou t ink it poss i bl
hr
id
o much o ~.
0 'I
thi
e , - I beli eve y-ou
1n t
~
ve be
or
o k
JJ..
?
o do.
--- ""~
_, ~- --~ ~- --- --- --~ --- -~ --- --- --- ---__;.~
�r
•
t fif y
ti 1
•
r aant . of
h t
k 0
0
t le
t
•
h. t
r.
I
u.
0
n r .ust
or do you f
n
t
II
l
ht
Q
X
0
tom
id ' t?
dO
i
h
ken,
1
a that you
I
X
0
~
._,,
•
nt
ao
1
h
u •
..
nnnd?
id r tion
bout
ro
foo
oun •
1r.
A
you :f
•
lG
t
e
?
t
oy o
pi
0
t
•
•
rOh nt b
'"Q
it
r
t
ld
Vi"'
te ~ine.
lr xim t ly the thoU.8 nd feet of
oh?
o
x::i
ir , I di
1
bla
ch
i n' t
num r o !eat?
th
fitte n
c1t. ofoka?
Yo
l und ed p :c c n • of so e ..
•
y ·
time , you ,o\lldn ' t
1ng t
~
on.
be o l
proXima
Co. 1
ell , •'
.,
ou.l
p
o t
Q.
ink
C
I
sir.
, isn' t there?
ir.
t
i l.l
loc t
l
0
it
1 fere t
o
tio
I
0
OU
Jr.
f
r.
8
id
"
didn 't.
t.
...
Yo•
h
•t
00
1tnes~
O
ny fi o • n
1
1s ed.
!Io s 1
t,O
0
n , I : nt wit
ob
bl"O
0
ir alee
•
w f1 e
broke , do,tn' t
m
hey?
tm.
a ver.
y
ir , but
13.
�4.
'r. Joh
r
.. 1 (;
r l
n
r
y
t to?
si
tra.ot ?
·11th 1
11
i
You
.::.i.l'
ge
ral
11
R
yo
11.t'
eal
down
· ortio
0
o ,n t wa ·
u. , • o...
0
t One
ig
to
1
... l k.to
onco.
. l.o
t
Gou.n Y•
ount V rnon
on the
her
her
V
•
i b r ia
the
• I kn
V
i
'
V
loo to
I
ry lit 1 0.
I h·v
b
en over
un •
your opinion ,
· ro f
OU
t ot
t
rno
t ho u u •
1n
.L
n
i
t
w llin.,;- o
ot.
~
t
·"'
iii th
ro
ell
ve you s:pont
V
in
o. 11v1nc in
Ll'O
.Olli
at d
0
t.
o miles o
•
"'
t
0
Yea sir. I wa bor
A
n
1 1n1t
i t _retty
You
en outt i
b
ni
•
you f
.o
Gro toe ,
ro idenco
ca , hav yo
li'•
1on.
d oaou
io
o.
ty-
_fj
'
ig
•
103.'
v nner.
.'l'
our
t t
r . ~foe,
Q
on uo ed by
x i n tion
1ro
be11
uly
•
ti ·i
0
,
i tne
r o th r
ca ,
J ...
t
h
lue
0
a traot
r int
tl e
u.mpi
ili ar,
.:ou me
-·
ave
r.
el.':
not a kin
l
ot ha
eon
O'
1n.
ytb i
11
0
other b lo.nee of :lt.
n- o
out
E,
for
figu.r
0
ld
1
n
0
'
d for
r pr t y 1(311.
I oo d
rty.
that
!
•
I h
in th
n I nevor
ig
in
five doll
ho
for
~~
ent
I
other
/e
Jr· o of timb r
•
•
~
iilStl'
n , :
18
that?
14.
/;/,,5A
�l •
...,.
bout t re
ofo e
' o , JUSt
hroo yo·
eokon.
o, I
r
y
I ought anothe truct.
t
nty- ro doll r
i
re· son bl
, they s em to admit that
te timo
e•
ccording to the St
t o eand on
n
o r
o a.r
r a
!
il.)pi
point
Q
no .
prio
un fo ty dollar- vould ·
think at . i
V ry :reason bl • b a rou onable price .
o nt
you m de any
JI ve
i te oo
1n
fi1 d
y ot ri::ielf?
le
! h von ' t
unity.
sir, here
,.0
oµnt to
l:;.lly, to
hippo
rket .
Oli
Il' ve y ou. tl.i.e inv io e?
Q.
a hie ory here.
Yes sir, a s to s
ov r to
You havo tur o
n1
Virginia . Cr· ftsm n,
o Th
od pricee
n
or
nd
t
e follo i
s ls
ovin
·~e it memor· ndums
llo.1ing
lte
Ootober
6, 1 vl ,
t ov
t hous . d.
o, 1931,
m or
yo
1 4 , hickory ,
low
' 8 th
m.. ·o
·r. ·U 'tnatro ,.,. .
.
h
l s eh
th
h ro i
trot
d
I
l o
t
• t •40 . 00
on
sh
Novemb r
d.
thou.a n •
h roe ut y ,
of
<t
d t
•
h
Yes
bJO U
th ~o is no evidence
ppr Oi b o qu·nt
0
ir.
do to tho intro cuction of
Obj otion i
uy h1.c kory or
f 1
25. 00
d a sh
l
abovo r for
t
t oue
0
a
a•
1r.r
de oth
you
o.
hio1~ory ,
thous nd,
30. 00
. oo
o. oo
ed,
nn
ood
f
1,0010
4 , 19Jl ,
3
r 5, 19 1, hickory ,
h1c·ory , )30. 00 a thous,nd .
n.
Ootobe.r i.,:! ,
1•i:,or tod.
ou un.
h u
followin g
t10
.:
0
the
con.sid r t1o .
OU
18. 00 a th
oic
,
·o. 2 oo "
n .
o. l co·unon
27 • 19.:.il,
of :_ov mb
i
£0.00 a tho1
h
nd,
ah
o. 3 co ..
nd.
' r.
o e i
00
t;;O
?
y
r:
, ot t
m n y .fox
them , too.
15.
�/
•
u no. al con iti n~
or th1
y u
· ....
.c
•
Vo no
...-lu
f
t
0
.......
.
.. ,.1;;.
;
h t
licko-· ,
peen
y
obt ined by you, un er
10
fr
ll •
t, on
OU
on tno
lu
ou.ld
ount
hi
P.
t kind of ti bor uro ~ou reforr1nrr to
'l
: I
••
u t
ron:
eonolu
s
n
t'U!!lp
i
t
obj
riet
:iic
1.10
to ,
rioe
of differ· t
ore not
o
l ol
~
• Tu
ern n
t
,,, ..,
.W.W.
,.. .
u
i
•
.
....
titute
old
air , I
_.,. t
hi
... ol
in
ft
lau
of t
•
0
ihO
h
th t
on ts
e
.. ,
X
hro
lOxlO, for
'
I t akon
1 the
a i
1 •
i.n
t
n lemon ho
n
u t
.. t t
t g · t:
ho loouwt.
a.u .
?
...1.. 1
tl
}
00
th
1 •
-- J
I
cl ss
~eoamb r 18,
o k s1noc
C
"ount
th
•
V X
yo •
om n
e
• or
1 b r o
f th-
I ... y tl
•
-
It i
Old
an .... h timber
ic ~or
ice
it
t
•
nd there-
to be
te tif1
imb
In
0
uo od ,
itno s ·rnuld be
, fr m
0
0
of lumber
uero
1
t
on
apooi o
d
ne
for
111
C·
a
I
rad
l ore th t vou oouldn' t
good
ot
ouldn tt s \ it di
l'
to t ko t his
o ·ly tl •ough
.
11 t 1e boat ti bor is from tho s aps.
0
•
�l
torn thi
l
un.
You
.
f ... 0
tw
I . o n1t
u·
to
ya on
m
N
, wh
"1
· 11 . ..
bor oo
0
lu
o, ,
r ilro
f r nin
been on
it on
nd 1
y·
0
for
5.
ir, I
Ye
1!t ' I
l a
nd
ue
!I'
stJ.
•
e vi dOllO
e
t
10
ot
1.1m bor 01it
:r. Campbell
O"'l_n
im cru1 o t
1;
ho has
into
· hat
r on · :
ollow .
ld ...
into th
t
l '"
t
. r. , ms ro n :
hey
Y•
~u
Hl
h:.. d sl)y- gl
rnnt
Ul,) 0
wh,t you vou.ld
e g ot on thi
s ... e •
ridge ,
..10110 rn .
y u o o.f
ion i
i.., ld
las e .,
objected
o, b aau et~
doesn 't SU port tho aonoJ.usion er
r:
.
,
tim· ·e ?
aA
e
hat?
,1th my b other-in-1
een
I
r•
iv1d1ng r 1 go ,
e look ~
ak
do. -n thero .
1
ve
alo .,
' s
; 11 , ·.o won
C
t it
forte Govornmont?
sir .
id
iJ
· e wiJ.lin,:./' t o
oul
J , or do you knm
Camp
of t e o
- ow
this n igh-
ir .
Yes
OU
I h ~vo
•
d111n,.1 to con ra.ct to
lveOO.
ini.o '"' holl
stump and
~~a
o.
id yous e h · m cru.aing a."- o
en
of v lu.e and
:ro
yourself
e
uolivored ti
i
of
Yes
alw y
1dn 1 t do
?
IOUl
Yo
cu
1 b r on
:it fift ·en dolJ. rs -- I
•
Di
'
ize.
and t h
15. oo.
round
t 1
to a for
t
~
~
money.
b 1ng
d st tion , Lt y u mo 1?
r ilr
out an
I
You
u ldi
thi<t
xpon e o! outting
is th
· timb r o
umber
t.
You h v
Q
cut .n .. ih re
-- "·he l ,
r.
you.
tol
Olll d
nd th t
lum
ut the
n
t
...
T'nia · 1 r,- t1 bor 1
tu.tr.
i t to the neare
tti
s u
taon .
i
throug
g1rdo
ot eight .foot
OU
...1
fourt en .
'
Y, t
ffl
ot ti b r th t
s
e gr do t· . oell th
If you w t
t
un
ig
V
atuf.r
uhi s g o
iea or into ~hi
on into railxo
00
;o
we a
an.cl
O f
11 , 1 t' s Lae if f t do~
Th· t is not
m· tter for
ss
•
.1.p ort 1 t.
gumen.'t , rank.
17.
�l.
th. t - e
ae ~as the o t i m t
e
or the only
aeio n whe
o the Com
t te
111 you
it thro u ~ the
1 -- 1
af or
d
ta
sti
l
rr
•
or
te
ti
ne ri.h t
1v it
e obJ otio n.
s
mstr on~ :
ir.
Upon
l
It 1.t' h d edge , 1t
n a ly a l l har t.
1ne th t
is some
, the
in .
~ood
oe of it is ver
b
f1 th
n arly all lL art.
soft ,
good pine , 1 1a
a yell o1 .ine , it i
It i
1
1ne.
r ,r.,h o f
oon i er bla
th re 1
1o
Yos air.
8
tat
r1
Th hou e in hioh you ur livi n • .r. c0 , i
larg e t aat at the tee of mou nt·in ?
dge of
Ye
1
•
bino ou.l ur vi ion?
by
~r.
th
l-
de t
d
m for th t t ype of orui ing, I
o he ado that ea•
011 , ~ - inoo ul
If t ora isn' t any
oing to
1 s
j:-
h
1is
rid e ,
ot up on
en ho
•
very
it
the holl ow , whe r
u
.. e hol li ; go in
t in
h
•
I/
es
t;,1
oou.lcl see 1ith out h.1
s i r , t e o ly th t h
y
ould bo n. very flno pine .
f righ t 1n
xoe ptio n
e
It
s
very ·ma ll he rt.
It
oul
t the
o ther -
ke g ood
bo r in .
not
I
t in
1 t.
iahl an
50. -00 an
oqu aint d
~ov rn
I o u
The
ell
v lu
· nio , 1
in you r
th t ,
fine .
ver
ir, it i
Y
d pted for
ia loo te
pos e?
grioultu r l
Q.
iah th t pin
th t l and u on
I
y
Hei hts sol
1th t
ould
the
1
th
of th
of 1 n •
pr1c
.., 1
l
?
i'h
of land righ t
ono
bou t
d oini ng th1e tr o for
ore.
o
Do you
et
trac t, i
Doy
heth r J r. Cole
Cou nt , h
, up
upp r
t t
v ry va.l ua blo farm ?
tl e v· lue of tha
1 nu?
o sir .
nd oft is
Ya
ir.
I kno: , he
l •
�1
de
h
m e •i
ot
ton
ol
?
1r.
Ye
ov r
No ,
001 -
owner
ould you
ut on it
ou.
ow
I ao .e to
1a ho
a you al 1m
t v luatio n
1 o it Court o1
th
ot t 1me?
l ong p r1o
Y s sir, th
t ou.t in
tou
• tter
t
t
1ngh
sir.
Ye
nd?
by virt
itl
you Ql med
t
11 olv
er
o
ts in t 1
nd ta
doal o f liti ation over thi
oo
qui t
1
h
t there on it.
ink you
I
1 tba
heh e
I kno
oney.
~1 of
oocl
h
ot th t 1£ nd , yours elf•
1
11 t 1e lovel tr ot at th
toe
mount ain.
of t
It 1
11
You ier
t
e
t
tho.n
ot
(
of
th1
I :rill oh
~
)
nd.
.
ol
VO
y
t
ot tllo ques tion,
fo
t
d. tnes
8
n
0
h
ission ers
l Co
ppra1
ue ot tho l nd.
to h
ve been willin
it is 1m-
f the ·
v lu
ltet
r
f
venne r oontin ui
•
on
otuat d by motive s other
been
.fair marke t v
vonna r:
r.
ere tr a~?
e put o
es might
t hav
1
ould bo
h t is
y
ot the 2,000
i
only questi on before
ie
ore
· eetion is obj oted to, for th re
th t what v lu
mut rial.
little .
588
clo.1
matro n:
•
excep t
You. ,e a
rioe.
ir.
ositio n
in a peoul iur
OU ere o.rn on th t
ot your ol 1 of owner ship 1n th t.
po ..
I . s y you ere in
11
1 yo
VO kno nit
propol ' ty, nd
th r :perso n. If
sition to . 0 it , lue proba 1
00
u ...
you do
0
it
v· lue, itll yo 1
..
te, in
OU"' 0
t th t
inion , \
v lua 1s? .
, 11,
ha ing
w
1
t od to
fifty doll
uit , our couns l
et more
lu
s · n aor .
i'lo.llt
an
out
1111 just toll you
V
for t 1
o
d
l
8
Of
Somo ot tho othor h 1r
1
'!'I
·ere
l n • Th y
id
rt.
I
t
-f1v.
ir
e
19.
r,~~
�t t irty.five.
_ put it in, I thi ~,
opi ion
Then tho ,"35. 00 an aero r preacnts the o
number of
eir
Il ' W
rnuc
hat
ould ·be on th
wou14
e riff t hara
of Ei g Run belong
1
is th
aloa.r
'/ ell no • I don.' t kno
A
whole
l
thct
C
round b tween lline
Of land
1
the toe of the
&
e
.
J.11 of t
Th t
o 'I .
wh re I livo, t he
e ve ,
n
l
' ou..ld s y
•
Clo r, yos sir.
th t
y
1.r.
n
oo to
t. y . 11
t JLn
is 2 , 000
ieburae
t
cr ea
th t traot?
V
a.zing no .
t hore for
1B
n
d pto
ur lly
r
d i t will
vi ll l Y,
od.
will
I
to er zi
..
er e
'.l:
t o any - ing .
0
'
.. Ye e s1:r,
"a
l llO
.
i t be ueod f or b--razing r i gl'1 t no.~ ?
gr sa
0 0
od,
?
Yes air.
That
:Lr.
Ye a
C ttlo
o .fine o t tharo.
At
will do
o
ro:per
ell th r ?
no1
o · son o:t t
Y,
a
r , c t tl
y
o n
be
ut on tha t ,--
ir.
ry ~or s
u
1n
Gould b
u ed ! or
·r ....z i n,1 pur-
ut t .o p. o~e r s ea son of t ho year?
· ell, pru.ct io· lly al
w er
~
air.
Cun
pos
o 't
a t of i t in the hea d
and n turully 1 dll s od it olf to a blue g r s.
Tlr t
nd then as
lu.e f r (Pr zing
111
to tell y oll
I
,.,a
0
a ?
ounta1n, ar
r11on traot?
for
t
t •
ten u.cr s
tree
t
on' t know whethaI' that
I
h
h s n e vor bean any f • r ming
lan
t
live , five
Oan that tr ct be us
air.
t
d
on't kno
r
raot.
~ou.nty?
heao
y
It w uld"
'I.
Y•
hat is ol
of a 1 rge
be
I
Thi
Yo
a.
to
I
nio
sir.
ount V rnon
Y•
a f ct • or not.
partiOUl r
Yo
y
in your f
50.o •
s
some roe~ knolls woul
on th.l t l an
d they
th t loo
~
0
it,
11
re mi ·ht bo a f
of i •
•
a p
ut
p lace
s a Vi e that
-vine; i nf ot, i t i
11
ow
po .
thy jut do f ine.
20.
- - - ~ ~-
- - -- -~10
�v l ue of
" 1
e·r,
.,
.
ooncl
'4
o an
re
t
h
eol
n
t e
0
pe
·O
p
tion ot
t 1 o you
•
no
met
i
i
hole t ...1 "•
I
ours.
or f o
.
t
i
h
P
n to
u. t ha penod t
.o
eine
V
I
h t day.
Y•
r
l
no
o·;
e r he
t1 e
ere
i
ho
Oh t · i
o o
t
o . when
~-
o
me
.
oin
· -, h
yo
u
,1 tl
0
· im •
ne t.
holl o .
1,
OU..
!
oer
i
l ooki ng
?
t out.
0
tho
ti
1
:
ro
You on• t
0
tin
;you
t ho o
ha
t·
o el."
.t
him
ere 10
lOll.'"'•
o
r
i no
t
ry
tr ng.
11.
, in
y
'
i
b-
r.~
ro you
l i t7
00
Tl
k any
con uctod by
7
m, ny a.ya
ll O\'
t i ul
I d
oll
e ...
f one .-
10
o·
i tno
re you i t
Q,
you
0 d,
at •
e
pi oo
t he
•
r
i
~
ow
OU
0
t
lo
no
i
•
1
r
'
t
it
'
or •
1
a lo
doll
0
wd
0
qu.nr
r •
ore.
ty-on
Io
•
oul
0
t
e
C
f
d th
u:pp s ·
e
t t
-t-
C
h: a bee
,Y •
ir.
"
in t r e t
0
lli
C
1
?
a.
o you k o
he th :t i t
V
"'
i
ni
o ·o
,,
••
t
'I
1.
G,11
�, .
morni nn ho JO n n.
r\
You u.s h· VG kn.om 1t
re
x~r
to
r1
It
l1 V l"
I \' oul.
nt
V8
i d you
r an
V
e
. n'
er
k
i ll
:'lac
.o do
or
In fact , y
e in reduce
on-
a con uotad by r.
~
in
0
:f
e
ile
t
a t
'
MO
s.
t anyt~ ing.
have
0
e
of! T
y ... , 1t
t· i ?
r o
.m
n
dja
ju.st
t
0
0
,ommon 1. bor r,
ot t
l
nnor.
t to your
th t 1
!
it
oth
r e1d nee?
tho to
r
dl
o:rn, t stifie •
duly
u :plea e
You own
1
Surv Y•
raot?
en off of thi
ir.
Ye
IQ t
lity of
q
a that of yo
so
l
on t i
r t y uch
?
rot
2 , 000 aoro
e
e.
.
p
ently
lit le more
oil.
a
an u1
d t
ole , your traot
ea e t y.po of soil
Q.
ri?
I ·don •
l don't do .
'
OCOU1'6,tion?
Yo
andy
n :ill t
•
Dir ct ex 1nation
am.a
nr i ular
and loo
et d
es •
•
•
8
lf , ooing firs
the
ed.
n.
d
one th1
a.is 1
rr . eor
t ,.. in
y - g la._
rou h
e
irn ih
in.a
bu.
itne
b
..
t it?
noto-b ok n
hi
OU
880
t it .
hi
e
usi
y
boon aurpr
lf ,
d
oo ing
o sir , that 1
0
y o n
ot
•t
It
air.
Did you
.
1t.
loo
him t
e
..
Ye
ii.
you
i
..
for
i
ell, wa.sn ' t he
ir o io
in qu stion.
llo
1r.
llo
?
ri ed ma
ll
a n buyin
h d
C
1 ed?
Yo
,, I
It • ...a
to d1nn ....
you
ount Ver on traot · e the
ii e
rchu.a
y
t
In 190.
22.
�\,'11.a t did you. pay for it at tht:.t timo, an acre?
l paid four dollars nn acre with the mineral right rone1~ve d.
They roeorvod the r.ainera.l rights.,.
Q,
Then you oloarod it off, yourself?
Q,
Did you later sell off a part of it?
A
Yea sir.
.1~ •
Y,s sh.•.
\ 'hu t did yo u. get for it?
Q
Uow lone ago waa tba t'l
I guess it ht, e been fift een years
since I sold that of.f at ten dollarg an
ii.
.niember o;f the Commission:
ae1·Eh
I wiall y ou would state to
whom you soln · that ?
Wi tnoes:
I f1rst sold 1 t to a f ello.w .numed Atundy. It
belongs to my clauehter , now , lb.'a. Uor:ris.
it to a
.1-
undy at ton dollar& an aore .
I .first eold
He h ,,.cin' t really
got a title to 1t at that time, and then I let my dnu,;htor
have it.
1:y duu.ghter pa id this m.on&y • thr&s h undred dollars ,
baok of it .
?tr. .t'l.rms trong:
Witness :
Q
Hov, tna.ny a Ol'e a?
?Jea.rly six ae:rea.
{Mr.Tavenne r oo.n tinu.in{J ). · i)o you h a ve a ema.ll orchard on
you~ traot of l and?
A
Yes air , that is in Au.gu;sta. County.
Q
Ia i t a produotiv e traot of
Q.
Ie tha aoil well. a dapted to fruit c rowi ng ?
l.:"r.Armet:r onr_; :
nd?
A Yes sir.
A Yes si:r.
Questi.on objeoted to, beoau.ae tho w1 tnese
h<¼.S stated that it 1e 1n a tU.fferent part of t he oountey.
(Mr. Tavenner oontim1in~ }.
The traet 1n
A~~ta Con.nt y a tl ....
joins tno t:ou.nt Vernon tract?
.!l.
Yea sir, on three sides ot 1 t .
Q.
you ha ve .found that tlla eoil ls of a nature that 1 t produoes
g o od fruit?
A
It certainly does , of the bes t.-
Q.
Ia .i t not a .tac t that there is more moisture than in tho aver-
�I think th'-4 t has some thin, to
o lan ?
Doe n•t
tr· o ••
r
ore
he:. t condition
nd
lell, it
2. 0
0 0
tainly mus
0
x1 t ove~ yo r
ome
cro
n
of al :p
do it, beo
r iver in tho clJY oountry they have to
th
v
on thi
1 l.tld
djoinin.g the 1·oun
v lley tho oro a ar
Yos
t
Q.
!01:
1
t
Lo
et of
h ir
ry
a son you h v
Ver on t1--act, ,hen out in the
o true , bee u
mus
ho
you here
r
r0
gote
the cannery m
t
is tomatoe .
n\ b r of
omatoea r 1
d 1
eot1on
this
Yo.a sir.
tho c nnory?
d
r
00 8 0
i OS
burned out?
ir . thi
o
Grotto
?
1n dry
t to th tin ~n oxa edi " lY
You mean to
crop
us
r ct , your
e m.o.u n ta.1 ns.
lo
o a le
;i th it .
0
ha. t i . th
qu 11 ty?
t
th t thi
ould you e
is 1011 adapted to
ne .
1i t e toe
lund
ricultural purpo e •
ot
th
I ~ou.l.
mol.lntain
certainly_ y
so.
se unusu lly dry ea o
Int
.. oun
corn oro )S o your land an
th
how ha.v
Vernon
ract oompa.r d
ell , ihere
~
You
lan
od 1t.
in 1930?
at
ould you nay ,
ount Vornon e
owth of you
:.,00
Q,
1h t
t
nty- .1'1 ve dollar
nd
· dJoini g th
Vu
o· n ono1•
ey?
ly h·ve t e
sir.
o
• is t e
h,1vo o llod the
I don't kno
v y?
or
ho corn out in th
r . Ro
pre ant ti o , it looks like it is
i
0
r o ntly,
ve
8
La.st y _~r , 1t vas too dry for anybody.
Y,
Joins you . th t
that
1th
V
got our best land,
oorn,Hh if nybody r
Q.
th t
l rte . per
lo e 1~ 1 d
·ht I ooul
rd for me to say.
ore of
ot the
n 1er it.
·1 the
I knot there
pine on it.
o you coneid r to be tl e value of yo r f rm?
un a ore
ont buy he
· nd th t I
id f our for. It
is in bu.shea yot .
I
i
h , a nover been olo r d?
Ith
never been clo red.
�tell , tool 1m
Q.
ta here are u king ten doll ure an - o e for
th t 1 n , not aount1ng t e timber that ia on it .
you think
th· t is a fair prioo to all purti ea concerned?
tron.;:
:r.
This qu.ostion is o J oted to ,
eoau,.,e th1
wit ness has specific l l y sta ed th t ho d1dn ' t
v lue
now the
ot the l nd in question , and said th t he would not
express an opi ions to 1 ta v~lue .
? r.Ta.v~nnor:
If the wi nese me na tha t
press an opinion of v lue , I
on I t w
e coul d not ex- ·
t him to o..n rnr the
quostion.
~-
an opi
14 you say you
trong :
ould be unwilling to ox pre s
on on it?
1tne .. s :
far
s me setting
prioo, I
ou.l n ' t 11 ~o to
say.
Commissioner :
You
a.y ihen you bought ·t hut tract ia
any morohantable timber on 1 t?
have boen some youn
e1x yea.re
o.
No sir.
Ther
r 1ght
ernal.l pine on 1 t a t t he t1ma ,
Since thatttme, I have built
there
enty-
st ble
nd
an ell to my house .
Co missioner:
itnoss :
Four
You p 1
oll ~e
four dol
for it?
n are .
(Mr . Tavenner oont1nu1nc;) .
time you bo
r
o
t it co tldn ' t oomp ro ut
tu.ff on th t land
l
t the
·11th the timber on 1 t no ·11
No sir.
v lue no
You plaoo
1
of
2u . OO
' era , on that lund th.at
h ae never been cl··~ared off?
I
ou.ldn '
You
traot o:f
ta.lee twenty- five dollb.r& on.
ore.
r en or man in ohur e of t 1 s
ore the
for qu1 e
£01
yea.rs ,
oun t
Vernon
re you not?
Yes air.
cl you were sol c ctod , I bolievo , as
Q.
Ya
air , I
a
ith
• C
pbell.
guide for
• Cw pbel l?
�y
Ho
of
id
8
h t pr o
....
y
o to
t
part 1:n i 1
sea i
Ile di
•
et next to t h
hill,
He
.
of tho mo
I
V
81 o of the mount 1n and look
t
1 ..8
101
"t i
I
t
1
o of
8
ht it
r.
y
• fa ir
be 1n
ssod you
t he
I t ho
•
mstrong.
abet .
ob?
ood, fai r
doin::, u
1
the v, y 1 t looked to me.
Th t i
is
s
s
d.
venn r ;
tip
It i
at
i
0
Vi rnon tr ot of r a l est te ia s o ,n by doed as 11 ving been
ount
oonv J'Od on
he 17th. day of
purauanoe of
e t r s of
co
o rta1n option , to
fort o conaid r tion of ~7 · ,
oaah , t e resi
boforo
u
0
0
16 , 6
10 , 0
p
y
o. oo
on or
Yo
t .1 17th day of
17th d y of
., , 1916 , tne
t
rust
•• J ol naon ,
rustee ,
ollOi.J :
1 , 000. 00
ble
~,o o. oo on or
first d y ot
y 0
r , 1914 ,
1nsta1lmo nt ;
e o.re the
• 7 on or betore t Le 17 h
16, 666. 67 on orb fore -th
for
oo. ,
·5 , 000. O in fiv
t 1 , 1 912 ,
S ptenber , 191J ,
Olt
.~as o onduqtod
d i t look d to you 11 o h
1r . T
1· ces th t
e oould.
th t
OU
1
g l a se •
i
r by
st1m to of tim
tnes
0 $6
o ooul •
• Camp el·l imp
by
e thou
ill
1
did
8
otu 1
ke an
met1od t e
itn
li
u
It looke
im ng to do wh
,oul
er
of t
O
d
un i l I iould
e t
Si
nation of
-e
ell
J!l
•
£.J ..
acouri~ to m t o ?
Q.
fi ld
timber
1
nd
on
I don ' t
l a. sos?
T
e·rd to the u e of hi
nt
hca
ee.
Cro
vy
""
ust don ' t
ays , I
in
to of
r •
Could a man
.field
pbell , i
1 ai on, etho
in
on th
ould go u
ho o ouldn ' t
ti o
C
s ti
1ould g o u
h
ll
• C
ir.
-.ill y ou t 11 th1
gl
. 1t
n
Ji
en or wel ve
Sor...e
You h · vo he
?
OU
ay, 1915 ,
n
id doforrod 1
16 , o . 7 on
tallments of
26.
�"'
i;,u1•chuse money beir.1.g secured by dood of tru.s t beai:· i ng
ven o..a te
therewitn, convoying the said real eat to to Charles Catl ott ,
Trua•
tee. · It 1a turther et1pu1ated that on the Z2d day of AU.gust , 1914 ,
t h e eaiu
. E<JJ011nson,
Tru.etee, o.nd his. w1.fe , oonveyca the said
rea l e st a te to .1. 1.. ..Uexon.aer for the sum 0£ 9 7 0 , 000. oo , of wh1oh eum
.)10,000.00 waa payable on t h e 22d day of September. 1 914, "15, C
o. oo
on t h e 22d day of Novembe r , 1914, f22 , 500. 00 on the 22 d do.y of _:ttg-US t .
1915 ,
·22 • two. 00 on the 22d da y of ....ugu.at 1 1916, the sa1d do.ferred in-
:.. tallllents of puJ.~ oha se monoy being a eon.rod by daod of trust of o ven
dc te the:revlith to o-.c.osborne. Trustee .
Jac ob Yoet ,
Tho a fore said d eed from
Truetoo , t o A. 1~.Johneon, Trustee, convoyed 23 9 800 ucrea,
in foe , and the mineral rights in 1,500 acres addit j. onal.
..A. E.John-
aon, TJ."1.1ste• , before t_ile re. sale to J. A. J·.loxa.nder, sold o!f 1 , 100
a.oree of t he said tract to variou.a :purcha ser s , and ,in t he 11 ti.go. tion
that .follo,.,1od , Alexander wa.a allowed a credit f or ~h e 1,100 ao:res
s old otf by Johnson to an maou.nt of between si x a nd t en thou.sand
dollars.
-----.~-------
This p:. go , und the twtlnty- aix l) J3ee im.t,110dia tely pre ce ding 1 t ;11 rnre taken
in · ehorthun<'i by t he Public Stonographa1• ,Hc.rr1eonbur6 " Virg1n1a, t...nd
t~ansori be& by her.
-~-~-----~-----------------·--------------i
�•
DEPOSITIONS
STATE COMMISSION ON CONSERVATION AND DEVELOPMllNT
vs .
CASSANDRA , LAWSON, ATKINS AND arHERS and 52,561
ACRllS , MORE OR LESS, OF LAND IN ROCKIIDH.AM COUNTY,
VIRGINIA, DEFEND.ANTS •
.
e •
. ooo . •
0
••• 000 •••
�I
MB. STONEBumER
MB. MAR3H
000000000 000000000 000
c.
L.
D E
X
60 to 78 ---97 to 99 ••••••••• •• Rebuttal 176 to 178
78
to 87
SHIFFLEI' oooooooooo o 87
to 93
GAYNORoo oooooooooo ooog 3
to 97
MR. WILLIAM
MR.
0 ~ 000000000 0000
N
MR. A. M.
TO'RNER0 0000000000 0000100
to 135 ---- 169 to 170
s.
Kl!MPERoo oooooooooo ooo 135
to 147
DR. A.
GOODoooo oooooooooo 148
MR. P. B. T.
to 159 - - - - 173 to 174
MR. GORDON BOW,/IANo ooooooooooo oo 159 to 163
MR. CHA.RLES
MR. W. H.
C.
BOWMANoo oooooooo 164
TISSINGE Boooooooo ooool66
to 166 - - -- 169
to 169
rffi. JOHN SHIFFLEr oooooooooo ooool7O to 173
MR. TAVENER ON CLASSIFICATIONS OF DEBT 000000000 0000 174 to 176
MR. JACK SlilFFLEr (Rebuttal) ooooooooo ooooooooo ooooo 178 to 180
MR. TAVENER -
SUMMARY OF TFSI'IMONY PROPOSED TO
BE INrRODUCED BY WITNESS OLIVER VAN- -
••• 000 •••
181 •
�THE STATE COMMISSION ON CONSERVATION AND DEVELOPMFM.r
vs.
CASSANDRA, LAWSON, ATKINS .AND <JrHERS, AND 52,561 ACRES,
MORE OR LESS, OF LA.ND IN :OOCKINGHAM COUNTY, VIRGINIA,
Detendanta •
••• 000 •••
'
TESTIMONY TAKEN AT HARRISONBURG, VIRGINIA, NOVEMBER 18
AND NOVEMBER 19, 1931 •
• • • ooo •••
�.• .
THE STATE COMMISSION ON CONSERVATION
A.ND DEVELOPMENl'
•
.
Vo
CASSANDRA,LAWSON,ATKINS and Others,and
52,·561 acres, more or less, ot land in
Rockingham County, Virginia, detendants.
.• •
.
• •• 000 •••
.•
.• .•
Testimony taken in the Council Chamber ot the City Council, at
Harrisonburg, Virginia, on November 18, 1931, at a hearing had by the Board ot
Appraisal Commissioner• for Rockingham County upon the matter of the claim ot
J'ohn A. Alexander, the lienors of the Kanawha National Bank, of Charleston, West
Virginia, the estate ot E. w. Feustenberger, the Home Building and Loan Association, of Staunton, Virginia, the State Planters Bank and Trust Company, ot Richmond, Virginia, Wallace c. Saunders.
PRESENT:
Weaver and .Armstrong, attorneys for petitioner,
F.S.Tavener,Jr., attorney for Kanawha National Bank,
George E. Walker, attorney for the National Bank and. Trust CoUIP'-nY,
executor ot E. w. Feustenberger, of Charlottaville,
Virginia,
Walter A. Williama, Jr., attorney for
George D.
Wh1 te, in behalf of himself as ona of the Commissioners of
the Cirouit Court of Rockingham County, Virginia.
NOTE (By Mr. White): I should like the record to show that George D. White, attorney tor Wallace c. Saunders, having demanded a trial by jury,
does not appear at this hearing on behalf of the lien claim
of- the said Wallace C. Saundera, and he, the said Wallace c.
Saunders, through counsel, ih addition to having demanded a
jury hearing in the claim originally tiled, put counsel tor
the petitioner on notice that he, Wallace c. Saunders, would
not introduce any testimony at the hearing before the Board
of Appraisal Commissioners.
-1-
�MR. CLYDE SMrrH, a witness ot lawful age, being duly sworn according to law, de-
poses and says as follows:
Q.
Will you state your :f'Ull name, please?
A. Clyde Smith.
Q,.
What is your age, Mr. Smith?
Q.
What is your present occupation or enroloyment?
A. I am a timber cruiser, employed by the Commonwealth ot Virginia.
Q,.
Do you mean that you are employed by the State Commission on conserTation
and Development of the State of Virginia?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q..
How long have you been em-ployed by it?
A. Since the fourth of December, 1930.
Q,.
Cruising what timber on what lands?
A. On the lands included in the Shenandoah National Park.
Q,.
In what counties of Virginia have you cruised lands tor the petitioner in
this case?
A. Rockingham, Madison, Albemarle, Green and a little in Augusta county.
Q,.
What ex-perience have you had as a timber cruiser, and what preparation tor
such work?
A. I worked under and with a man who taught me the game, and I have had
somewhere around tive years aperience.
Q,.
Well, please state, in detail, the knowledge and enerience that you have
had and ac,-iired in timber cruising.
A. At ditterent periods extending over a period of five years I worked
with a technically trained man in dif'terent -parts ot Tennessee, and this
made up about a year, and then I went to the Smokey Mountain National Park
in North Carolina tor two years and then in the state of Tennessee tor
tour months and then I came up here.
Q,.
Do I understand tran. your testimony that you cruised timber tor the state
ot North Carolina that was aoquirJng area tor -the Great Stilokey Mountain
National Park?
A. Yes.
Q,.
And the same tor the state of Tennessee?
Q..
We now have under consideration the tract known· as the John A. Alexamer
Tract, which lies in Rockingham, Augusta, Albemarle and Green Counties;
we are considering, at present, that portion ot the tract that lies in
Rockingham County, olaimed by the p&titioner here to contain approximately
1g 1 554 acres. Please atate whether or not, you crused timber on this Rockingham area ot the Alexander land on behal:t of the i;etitioner.
A. I cruised the biggest part o:t it, yes.
A. Twenty-nine.
-2-
A. Yes.
�Q..
Mr. Smith, won't you tell the Board ot Apprais&l Oamnissioners the method
you persued in cruising the timber on this property? JUst give in detail
how you located the tr&ct and the land and how you proceeded to ascertain
the quantity ot timber on the tract.
A. We had a survey off the tract, and we ran base lines along the streams
or roads, set up base line stations, and then I laid oft on the map strips
to be run by me tram these stations, and I would leave these stations and
run the strip as nearly across the topography of the country as I could.
Q..
Is this wbat is known amongst timber cwisers as the strip method?
A. Yes.
Q..
State whether or not you were accompanied by anyone on this work?
A. Yes sir, I had a man to run a compass tor me to keep on t he line that I
wanted to run.
Q..
suppose you should strike an area ot s-parsely timbered, wruld you use the
strip method on that, or not?
A. I did in a tew oases to keep the types ot land, but I didn't run the
strips so olose together on the parts that had no timber on them.
Q..
Did your duties also require you to examine the soil over the area traversed by you, and did you examine that soil tor the purpose ot tixing a value
per acre on the area examined?
A. Yes sir.
Q..
As you wculd make yrur examinations, would you merely carry it in your
head, or wculd you take a~ note of the quantity ot timber and the types
ot soil?
A. I kept a type map tor the types ot soil and I also had a tally sheet
and tallied each merchantable tree under the column it should be tallied
under •
. Q..
What did you do with these tally sheets and maps that you made?
A. I have them.
Q..
What would you do with them at the conclusion ot the week's or day's work
or at the conclusion ot the work upon the tract?
A. I tiled than away each day.
Q..
Did you turn these maps in to Mr. Marsh's ottice?
Q,.
I am speaking ot
ur. s. H. Marsh, Park supervisor?
A. Yes sir.
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now, what timber did you take into consideration in your cruise: that is, as
to varieties and size?
A. I took into consideration all merchantable timber above ten inches in
diameter.
Q.
How high :t'rom the ground?
Q,.
Did you take into consideration on this tract any tuel timber, ar not?
A. No air.
A. Breast high.
-3-
�Q.
state why not, it you found any such.
BY MR. TAVENER:
I object.
Question withdrawn by counsel tar petitioner.
A. I was told not to consider it on this one traot.
Q.
I band you herewith a statement in writing, purporting to be a list of the
quantities and values of the timber in Rockinghaa County on the land under
consideration, and ask you whether or not this is your estimate ot the t1mber tound and your estimate of the value of the timber.
A. Yes sir, it is.
Q..
Will you testify to the Commission now as to the quantities of timber you
:round and the value you estimated such timber to be worth.
A. Do you want me to read it off?
Q.
Well, you may refer to that for your testimony if it is a copy of your memorandum, and for that purpose, you may read it, it you like.
A. On the Swamp Run Watershed - - - - -
Q.
I hand you herewith what purports to be a map of the area of the Rockingham
County lands embraced within the whole area of wbat is known as the Alexander land and ask you to look at this map and see it you cah identity it as a
map of the lands cruised by you?
A. Yes sir.
Witness herewith tenders the map and asks that it be filed as Exhibit No. l with
his testimony.
Q.
Now, you started to give the timbers you found in the lifterent areas. I'
will ask you now to proceed with that.
A. On swamp Run Watershed I found one hundred fifty thousand feet of merchantable timber, valued at $1.50 a thousand, making $225.00; on th Madison Run
Watershed I found two hundred fifty thousand feet, valued at $1.50;mak1ng
$375.00; on Deep Run I found sixty-five thousand teet, valued at $1.50, making $97.50; on Lewis Run I found tour hundred eighty thousand feet, valued
at $1.50, making $720.00; on Big Run I found twelve hundred seventy-five
thousand feet at $2.00, making a total ot $2550.00; on Mile Run I found fifty
thousand teet, valued at $1.50, making $75.00. Thia makes a total ot two
million. three hundred twenty thousand feet and a total value ot $4,117.50.
Q..
Mr. _ &11th, I will ask you whether or not you actually made this map.
A. Yea sir, I did.
Q..
Mr. Smith, what value did you give to the lands exclusive of the timber
'9'8lue that you have just given?
BY MR. TAVENER: We objeot to the testimony of this witness as to the value ot
lands on the ground that he is not qualified as an expert on land values.
BY MR. ARMSI'RONG: Question withdrawn for the present.
Q..
Mr. Smith, please state what, in your opinion, is the tair cash market
-4-
�value of the timber on this tract.
A. I gave it in my report as I read it otf there.
Q.
You gave it in a certain way, but I am asking you what is your opinion?
A. Well, that is my opinion.
Q.
I understand you then to say that, in your opinion, the fair, cash, market
value of the timber standing on this tract is the sum of $4,117.50?
A. Yes sir.
Q..
Mr. Snith, in your work in North Carolina and in Tennessee, did you acquaint
yourself with the value of lands which you cruised for the Park Commissions
of those two states?
A. I did not.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Objection is made to this question on the ground that the value
of lands in North Carolina cannot be treated as a guage tar the value of lands
in Virginia, and ~he value of lands in North Carolina is immaterial.
Q.
Did you, in your work in Virginia since you have begun that work sometime in
the year 1930, observe the lands over which you traversed in the cruising of
timber for the purpose of estimatllg the fair, cash, market value ot lands exclusive of tiI11ber?
A. Yes.
Q.
Did you do that in all of the counties in which you have worked?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Now, what, in your opinion, is the fair, cash, market value of the lands in
Rockingham County comprising the 19,554 acres covered by the claim now under
consideration, and, in answering this question, you may describe the types
of soil or the types of land that you discovered, and what values you found
as to each.
BY Mt. TAVENER: We make the same objection as before as to the answer by this ·
witness of any matter in regard to land values, because the ,itness has not been
qualified as an e::rpert on land values, or that he knows anything of land values
in the mountain area of Virginia.
BY MR. ARMSTRONG:
Question withdrawn.
anith, in your work in Nortb Carolina and Tennessee, tar the l)Ul'poses you
have just stated, did you undertake to classify the lends which you traversed
as to type?
A. Yes sir.
Q,.
Mr.
Q,.
In your work within the area sought to be acquired by the state Commission on
Conservation and Development of t he state of Virginia, within wbat is known
as the Shenandoah National Park .Area, did you likewise cla•sity the land that
you traversed as to types of land?
J.. Yes si1·.
Q..
Now, tell the Board of Anpraisal Commissioners what types of soil you found
in this Alexander area in Rockingham County, alld the acreage of each type.
A. Ridge type, where very 11ttle of anything 18 grown, does not produce merchantable timber, and in this particular case, very rocky in most places, and
has been burned over repeatedly. I round 8806 acres, and slope type, unrurn-5-
�ed, I found ?,996 acres, and burned slope I found 2500 acres, cove type,
223 acres; grazing, two acres, tillable 25 acres, and woodland grazing,
2 acres, making a total of 19,554acres .
Q.
I call your attention to a tract of seventy-fou r acres, which appears to
be a detached tract, listed on your map as 326-a, and ask you whether or
not you cruised that tract.
A. Yea air, I did.
Q.
What merchantabl e saw timber did you find standing on that tract?
A. None whatever.
Q.
What types of land did you find on that tract and the acreage ot each?
A. Slope type, seventy-one acres and tillable, three acres, making a total
of seventy-fou r acres.
Q.
Mr. Smith, state whether or not you examined the land and the timber in
Q.
Did you make any independent calculation of your own as to the quantity of
land there am the types of soil, or not?
A. No sir, I did not.
Q.
Nor as to the quantity of standing timber on there?
A. No sir.
Q.
You did not do so in either Albemarle or Green County, I believe?
A. No .
Q.
In classifying the land as to types, did you follow any system, and if so,
state what?
4. I followed the United States Forest Service System as to ascertainin g the
·
types.
Q.
Now , is any of the land that you examined suitable for cultivation , with the
exception of the two acres, I believe?
Augusta County belonging to the Alexander Tract.
A. I helped to do it. I didn't do it all by myself.
BY ~IR . TAVENER: I wish to object here to this witness's testimony in regard to the
classificat ions of land and the types of land, because, from the witness's testimony,
it does not appear that he knows anything of lands in this area, or to the uses to
which lands are put in this area.
Q.
Q.
Q.
Did you find any tillable soil within the area you traversed other than that to
which you have already testified?
A. Very little.
State whether or not you found any buildings on this tract of land, and if so,
whether you made measurement s of then or not.
A. Yea sir, I found a few; I don't just recall how many.
Take this me:norandum and look at it and see if you can identify any buildings
from it as the ones that you examined.
A. Yea air.
-6-
�Q.
State what buildings you found and what size.
A. There is an old log dwelling close to Madioon Run where the Brown's Gap
Run crosses Madison Run the first time - a log building 17x50, paper and
board roof, two brick chimneys, two story, log walls, poor condition, pillar
foundation, occupied by tenant; and a new frame barn 18-20 x16 feet, paper
roof, good condition; frame hen house 10xl4,paper roof, fair condition;
frame hog pen, 6xl0, paper roof, fair condition; new frame stable, 8xl0,
paper roof, good condition; log dwelling, l4x20, two rooms with frame kitchen 14xl6, shingle and paper roof, one story, fair condition, occupied by
tenant, water supply, well; log barn, 12xl6, board roof, poor condition;
frame meat house, 9x9, paper roof, good condition; two frame hen houses,
8xl0 and lOxlO, paper roof, fair condition; log corn house, 6x12, paper
roof, poor condition.
Q.
Can you state, approximately, the length of time it took you to make your
estimates of the timber growing on the land you traversed and inspected,
and also to classify, by type, the soil?
A. I began on the 11th of December and worked until about the 20th of January.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
Mr . Smith , what is your place of resideee?
A. Oneida, Tennessee.
Q.
Had you ever inspected timbered areas in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia in the section of the Park Area prior to December, 1930?
A. No sir.
Q.
You state that your experience consists of working under a technical man in
North Carolina Smoky Mountains?
A. No sir, I worked under him a year before I went there.
Q.
You have never had any experience in cutting timber?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
In what part of the country'?
A. Tennessee and Kentucky.
Q.
What type of timber were you cutting there?
A. All hardwoods and pines.
Q.
In what capacity were you wai:-king'?
A. Timber cutter - preparing it ~or the saw.
Q.
Well , in other words, that is the srum type of wark in going out and working
for a lumber company and cutting timber?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
You did not work at the mill?
A. Yes, I worked sane in the mill later, after that.
Q.
When was that'?
A. I can't just recall the date, somewhere prior to 1920 though.
-7-
.
.
-._
<
�Q.
You were seventeen or eighteen years o~d then?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
In other words, Mr. Smith, you have had no practical experience in cutting
timber after you have made an estimate of that timber?
A. I have helped cruise some timber that has been cut since; I have cruised
it.
Q. But you, yourself, have not engaged in any timber working following crdsing
done by you?
A. No sir.
Q.
Now, the record shows that this condemnation proceeding was instituted on
the llth day of December, 1930 . Can you tell this Conmission what the value
of the timber was at that time?
BY MR • .Am1'3TRONG: Counsel for petitioner calls attention of counsel for claimand that this witness has not been introduced as an expert on the values of timber, either at that time or the present, and that, as to such questions, he makes
the witness his own.
BY MR. TAVENER: In reply to that objection, counsel desires to state that the
witness testified point-blank as to values of timbers on the various portions
of this tract, and if he was not qualified as an expert, then I move the Court
at this time that his testimony be struck out and not be considered by this
Commission as to the value of t:imber .
BY MR. ARMSTRONG: In reply, counsel for petitioner states that this witness was
introduced as an expert in the matter of ascertaining the quantity of timber on
areas, and if any questions were asked him as to value, it was inadvertently so
done, and counsel for petitioner agrees that so much of his testimony as relates
to the value of the standing timber may be stricken out and not considered.
'
BY MR. TAVENER: Then, in order to clarify the record on that point, the testimony
of the witness that the timber on Swamp Run was valued at $1.50 per thousand ;
Madison Run, $1.50 a thousand; Deep Run, $1. 50 per thousand, Lewis Run, $1.50
per thousand, Big Run, $2. 00 per thousand; Mile Run, $1. 50 per thousand; Two Mile
Run, $1. 50 per thousand, aggregating a total of $4 ,117 . 50, be stricken from the
record.
Q,.
What is the type of t:lmber, Mr. Smith, that you found in Swamp Run?
A. Mostly pines, with some hardwoods .
Q.
Will you point out to the Connnission where the most of the timber that you
founs on Swamp Run is located, please, sir?
A. That map is on such a am.all scale that I cannot point out any definite
point, but it is in the neighborhood of that run.
Well, then, can you point out on the map that you prepared and introduced,
where you found that timber?
Witness here indicates o~ map the location.
Q,.
Q.
Now, what type of timber did you find on Madison Run?
A. It's about the same thing; mostly pine with a few hardroods along the
stream.
- as
�Q.
Well, as I understand, you measured that pine and other timber as ten inches
in diameter; how tar above the ground?
A. Breast high to a man.
Q.
How many teet would that be?
A. In a ten inch tree?
Q.
How many feet above the ground did you measure the timber?
A. Approximately four feet -- somewhere around there.
Q.
If the timber wruld measure ten inches one foot above the ground, what
difference in the number of board feet in the tree would that make?
A. All ~>Ur tables are based on measurements made breast high.
Q.
You have been introduced as an expert witness here ~s to timber cruising.
Will you state to this Commission what would be the difference in the number
of board feet to a tree where the tree was measured ten inches at one foot
above the ground instead ot ten inches tour feet above the ground?
A. There wruld be some difference in the different types of timber. I haven't
my papers with me and I cannot say just how much differena:e.
Q.
It would make some difference?
I can't tell just how much without the papers.
Q,.
You did not attempt to take any record that was below ten inches and four
feet above the ground?
A. No sir, nothing under ten inches in diameter, breast high, was not considered.
Q,.
Are you familiar with the type ot wood that is usually used for stave wodi
purposes?
A. I am with hardwood staves, but with pine, I have had very little experience.
Q.
But you have had experience in the stave wood business?
A. Yes sir, I have seen a lot ot it worked up.
Q.
How low can you take timber a foot avove the ground for stave wood purposes?
A. Hardwood?
Q,.
Yes.
A. How much below a foot - - - -
Q.
What size timber, at a foot above the ga,ound, can be used for stave mod
purposes?
A. I never saw much used under eighteen inches; very little under t hat.
Q,.
Don't you know, 1h' . Smith, that you can use wood way below ten inches for
stave wood?
A. It may be that it could be used.
Q.
Then, if there is any value in that wood for stave wood purposes, a t dimen-
A. Yes, sane difference, but
sions below ten inches, at four feet above the ground, you have not considered it i n your report?
A. No.
-9-
�Q,.
Have you conside red the growth of other timber on that property that is
below ten inches at four feet above the ground, such as saplings and four
inch, six inch timber?
A. We also notice that in typing the land; as for placing any value on
1 t, I did not.
Q.
Referrin g again to Madison Run, your figures show that you frund two hundred fifty thousand feet of lumber in that area. Now, I would like you to
examine the map previou sly presente d to you, which I will now present in
evidence as Defenda nts ' Exhibit No . 1, known as the Survey of Mount Vernon
Real Estate, by Jasper Hawes, and ask that you point out Madison Run to the
Conmrlssion.
Witness points out on Defenda nts' Exhibit No . 1 the location of Madioon Run.
Q.
Describ e to the Commission in what manner you cruised Madison Run.
A. We ran a base line along this road from a position on the Park Survey
line, and set stations up and t h en we ran our strips away fran thi s r oad
on each side of the road to the watershe d or to the ridge .
Q.
Will you state definite ly to the Commission, and point out on the map, the
exact position where you ran your first strip to the southwe st from Madison
Run?
A. I can't point out exactly where it was , but it was not far above the
Park line; it was close to it, but I can't point out exactly .
Q.
Do you recall locating a dwelling 17x50, occupied by Mace, at the south of
Madison Run?
A. Yes sir, I recall that.
Q.
Can you state to the Commission whether that block appearin g at the point
indicate d by my pencil on the map is the Mace house, or whether it is a
block appearin g further west on that road?
A. I can show it to you on my map, but that one is - - - I had it located
right t here; I can't say as to the exact location on that map, but I know
this is the exact locati. on on my map .
Q.
Will you mark that Mace house on your map?
A. Witness here marks map .
Q.
Q,.
Q.
Then, can you mark the location of the old Mount Vernon Iron Furnace along
the Madi son Road?
A. It is somewhere right about here; I can ' t place it eaactly, but it is
right in there .
Is not the old Mount Vernon Furnace on Defenda nts ' map represen ted by a
block appearin g at about the same location as you have pointed out on your
map?
A. It seems to be about the same location , yes .
No w, with the ·Mount Vernon Furnace as a referenc e point , will you please indicate to the Connnission where you began to run your first strip toward the
sou fuwest'?
A. Somewhere along in here; I can ' t point out the exact place, but down below the Mace house; down in that flat.
- 10-
�Q. Was that first strip that you took on the mountain or ridge?
A. No sir, that was down in what I would call the flats, down off the mountain.
Do you know how many acres are in that flat land at the toe of the mountain?
A. No sir, I don'to
Q.
Well, you prepared that map, Mr. Smith?
A. I prepared that map, showing where the line of the timber line rould cane to.
Q.
I notice on your '1ap, you have a line with the letter "R" inside at it; does
that indicate ridge?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Now , do you toll this Connnission that the timber that you found was embraced
within those lines there?
A. It was below this line here, yes.
Q.
Then, if there are two thousand acres of virtually level land at the to• of the
mountain, you cruised over that land?
A. There is not that much there. I couldn't say how much there is, but I don't
think there· is that much.
Q.
How much timber did you find on that level land at the toe of the mountain?
A. I didn't separate what would be on the level land from what would be on
the slope.
Q.
Have you your daily work sheets showing what you cruised and what you estimated on each strip and type of timber? If you have not that infonnation in your
own mind will you get that information to show to the Connnission to show just
how much timber you located on the level land at the toe of the mountain and
produce your original work sheet showing that amount.
A. Yes sir • .
Q.
To your knowledge did anyone else cfuise that two thousand acre strip at the
base of the mountain - anyone else connected with the Govermnent?
A. Yes.
Q.
Before or after you made the cruise?
Q.
Now, Mr. Smith, didn't you go on that property and make an estimate of about
twenty-five thousand feet of timber on that level land at the toe of the mountain, and then, later, they got another cruiser to go back on it, and he brought
in an estimate of a hundred thousand?
A. B'o sir.
Q.
Who went with you when you cruised that two thousand acre tract?
A. I don't recall; I used several diff erent fellows down in there as canpass
men, and I don't recall who was with me.
Q.
Who was the man who cruised that level land after you made your cruise?
A. Two or three fellows cruised on that.
Q.
Who were they?
A. J. A. Shifflet, Will Shifflet and Donald C8Illl)bell.
Q.
Do you know whether they raised your figures four times on that tract?
-ll-
A. After.
�A. I don't know what they did.
Q.
Do you lmow whether or not the figures you have presented here this morning
in the form of a memorandum made up in the office, canprises your originaJ»
figures or figures corrected by other cruisers?
A. If they have been corrected, I don't know it .
~.
Well, you don't know whether that memorandum represent s your own i ndividual
work or your's and other people's combined?
A. If this ~ract that I cruised is included in this, because there is some
portions of this that I did not cruise .
Q.
Then you have given figures on statements that you are relying on others to
testify to rather than your own personal knowledge?
A. To some extent.
Q.
And you don't know whether or not the two hundred fifty thousand feet on Madison Run is your original estimate, or whether the land at the toe of the
mountain was increased three or four times?
A. I don't know whether the report has been changed or not . They seem to be
my original figures .
Q.
Do you recall whether that check of the low land of your's was twenty-five
thousand feet?
A. No sir, I don't recall.
Q.
But you will produce your figures before the Conmission?
A. Yes sir.
Q..
ffuen?
A. Tomorrow.
Q.
Will you point out to the Commission where, along Madison Run, you found the
most timber, and refer to Defendant's Exhibit No. l?
A. I found most of it right around in that way, and then this is known as White
Oak Run, a tributary of Madison Run; there is timber on up there too.
Q.
You have stated and pointed out on the map that most of the timber ~ound along
Madison Run was on the tributary known as White Oak Run ---A. No, and down in here up to the foot of the mountain and these lines of interior holdings.
Q.
When you stated along the foot of the mountain, what do you mean?
A. I mean off -- I mean below this timber line that I have drawn in here-. This
map shows where the timber is; it is marked S. T., which means Timber Slope.
Q.
Of the two hundred fifty thousand feet of timber on Madison Run, how much of
it was along the tributary known as White Oak Run, in approximate figures?
A. I wouldn't want to say because I didn't separate it in the report there,
and I don't know what percentage would be there .
Q.
How many days did you spend on Madison Run examining that timber?
A. Somewhere around two weeks.
Q.
And you can't give the Conmission any idea as to whether half or a fourth of
that timber was on White Oak Run?
A. I would say between a fourth and a third.
-12-
�Q..
What percentage ot it is in the area to the left or northeast of the road
as you enter the Ge.p there?
A. I'd say somewhere around one-fitth,o n the left.
Q.
Now, you say that it took you two weeks to cruiae two hundred f'i:tty thousand teet ot timber?
A. I spent that mu.ch time in there, yes, becau.ae there is a lot ot the
area that I went over which was not timber.
Q.
How
you
you
A.
Q.
much time did you spend in cruising work; I am not apeald.ng ot time
spent in making maps, or in surveying or camp work, but the time that
spent in cruising on this traot ot land?
You mean it I hadn't done anything but just oruiae timber?
How long did you work in the actual cruising ot timber?
I can't tell exactly how muoh time I would spend in that in a day's
work, because I would carry my strip through timber areas.
.&..
Q.
How many days were you engaged in timber cruising?
I only missed two or three days on account ot the weather.
.&..
Q.
Over what period?
A. Eleventh ot December to about the twentieth ot January.
Q,.
How much time did you spend in swamp Run?
.&.. I can't recall exactly how much time.
Q.
Well, it you spent two weeks in Madison Bun, did you spend a week or tour
or five days?
A. I can't recall.
Q.
Will you point out on Defendants• Exhibit No. l the location ot Deep Run?
A. This must be it along here. (Witness points to Deep Run on map.)
Q.
Now, Will you point out Lewie Run appearing on Defendants' Exhibit No. l;
Upper Lewis Run and Lewis Run?
A. Yes.
Q,.
Which one did you ---
A. They were both combined in that estimate; the two Lena Runs were com-
bined.
Q.
Will you give the Commission how much timber you found on each ot those
Rima so that there can be no possibility ot any mistake there as to
whether you covered them or not?
A. Somewhere about halt and halt.
Q,.
Now, on Big Run you stated that you tound twelve hundred seventy-fiv e thousand teet ot timber. Will you point out to the Commission on the map Big
Bun and its tributaries ?
A. Thia 1• Big Run. {Witness points to Big Run on map.)
Q,.
That stream is the largest ot all the streams in this area, is it not?
A. Well, yes, I would say so.
-13-
�Q,.
Q,.
Will you tell the Commission whether you :round approxim ately the same
amount ot timber on one side of the Run as on the other, or not?
A. There is very little timber found in here (pointing to map); the most
of the timber is up in the head ot the Run and also on the tributari es
that come in above that point there.
When you pointed to the map and said "found in here", you were pointing
to the northeast of the stream?
.A. There is very little on either side ot the stream down next to the line.
Q,.
Well, as you ascended that stream to its head, did you find the timber on
the southeast slopes and ridges and up the tributari es on the southwest
aide to be about the same as you find on the northeast ?
A. The best of the timber is on the right hand side of the stream as you go
up . toward 1 ts head.
Q,.
The right hand side ia the southwest side ot the stream?
A. Yes sir.
Q,.
Q,.
Now, you have reported finding, on Mile Run, :t'itty thousand :t'eet and on
T1r0 Mile Run fi:t'ty thousand teat. Did you make your estimate on Big Run
the same as you did on Mile Run and Two Mile Run?
A. I didn't cruise the timber on Mile Run and Two Mile Run.
Well, you have testified that the figures here are correct.
A. There is a portion in here that I didn't cruise, but the Cruiser's report was combined with mine on that.
By Counsel: In view of the fact that the witness is so indefinit e as to what he
knows and what he has actually cruised, I move that his testimony be stricken
out.
Q,.
Q.
Did you tind in the examinati on ot this land that there was about as much
timber on the southwest aide ot the ridges as there was on the northeast ?
A. You mean on the slopes ot the ridges?
Without referring to your map, where
the ridges or slopes, either one.
yotn" proper officials have drawn ott the timber areas, say where the timber
is.
A. On the northeast slopes there is more timber.
On
And further this deponent saith not.
�MB. J'.A.CK SHIFFLEr, a witness ot lawtul. age, being duly sworn, deposes and says
aa :t'ollowa:
Q.
Your name is J'. A. Shitflet, is it?
Q.
Do
Q,.
Where do you live?
Q.
Is that in Rockingham County,
you mind stating your age, Mr.
A. Yes sir.
A. Fitty-eig ht.
Shifflet?
A. Dayton, Virginia.
A. Yea.
Q. How long have you been living there?
A. Three years this last time; I have 11ved there tor the past thirty-ti ve
years, oft and on.
Q. Mr. Shifflet, in what business are you now engaged?
A. Well, I ain't engaged in any bueinasa r1@Jlt now. I have been engaged
with the Parle Condemna tion over there tor the last sixteen months.
Q.
Mr. Shitflet, have you had any experienc e in the cruising of timber and the
cutting, sawing and manufactu ring ot timber, and it so, tell the Commisaio~
what experienc e you have had, and running over about wbat years, and where1
A. Thirty-ei ght or torty years in timber and timber cruisea, manutactu ring
lumber, buying and selling ot lumber.
A. Yea sir, quite a bit.
Q.
Did you ever cruise any?
Q.
Did you eTer operate saw mills tor yourselt or tor other people?
A. J'or others and tor myselt.
Q.
Will you g1 Te your experienc e in detail, stating tor whom you worked and
tor how long, and what your duties were and what you did, say covering the
last twenty-ti va or thirty years?
A. I spent seven years in the woods as a hand, cutting logs, road making,
cutting loga and logging, and then I spent about si:I: years as Woods superintendent .
Q,.
J'or whom, and where?
A. !'or Steigel Lumber Corporati on, StokesVi lle, Virginia.
Q,.
What were your duties and what did you do .tor them?
A. It was my duty then to get out and look over certain watershed a tor
estimates , tigure on cost, railroad and logging out to the mill, and superintendi ng work generally and all outside work.
Q.
For how many years?
A. Six years I was SUper1ntend\11t there.
Q.
Where next? .
A. With the Augusta Woods Products Corporati on, ot Deertield .
to 1922 I was with them as Woods superinte ndent.
Q.
Wbat did you do, in a general way, as Woods superinte ndent?
A. I had charge ot all the outside operation a o:1' any and all kinds, mills
and camps and cruises.
-15-
l!'rom 1917
�Q.
Where next?
A. Next; I le:tt them in 1922 and went in business for myself and have been
in business f<:Tr myself since then.
Q.
What kind of business?
A. Saw mill, buying, selling and manufacturing.
Q,.
Where next?
A. With the State Conmlission on Conservation end Development, with Mr. Marah
in the Park area.
Q.
Q.
What have you done as an employee of the state Commission on Conservation end
Development in regard to the acquiring of lands for the Shenandoah National
Park?
.l. Mostly check estimating after the Cruisers; checking the amount found on
the land and also on cost of the same - what it would cost to get out and
manufacture and market,each and evecy- tract separately.
Were you ever employed by the United States Government as Forest Ranger?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
For how long?
A. l!'our years., as Forest Ranger in the Shenandoah National :Forest.
Q..
Was that area in northem Virginia or in the Talley of Virginia ?
A. In the western part of Rockingham, comprising five or six counties, part
of it in West Virginia.
Q.
What were your duties and what did you do with regard to timber end timber
lands?
J.. Supervision of timber sales, estimates and scaling and all small and
large sales in the way of scaling and supervision over than•
.A. Yea.
Q. And did you do that?
Q.
You aeid you were Check Estimator, under Mr. Marsh, in the matter of the
acqUisi tion of lands for the Shenandoah National Park. What areas and what
counties have you been upon and traversed over in discharge of those duties?
A. Well, the Park comprises part of eight ccmities,and I worked sane in all
eight counti ea trom Front Royal clear through.
Q.
Have you ever been upon the tract of land now under consideration; nmnely,
the 1ohn .A. Alexander tract?
A. Yea.
Q.
In the oape.oi ty ot Check Estimator?
Q.
What did you do? Tell the OODlllisaion in detail what you did on this tract;
what you observed and how you discharged your duties.
A. Well, Mr. Will Shifflet and I were on that tract. We spent nine daya in
there. We had a map from which to work that would take in watersheds.
Q.
A.Yea.
Was it a map like this map?
We would take in
watersheds, ridges, mountain tops, little hollows, which we didn't jot down
the names of each and every little hollow, but we would consider the mer-
J.. No, we had just a little sketch map made over that.
-16-
�chantable timber tound in each watershed.
Q.
Did you make an estimate ot the quantity ot merchantable standing timber growing on this tract?
.A.. Yes air.
Q. Have you that estimate with you?
.A.. It ia a matter ot record; it is tiled in with the rest of the papers in this
case; that is, the estimate that I made oft ot this tract, was filed in the
office with Mr. Me.rah.
Q.
I will ask you now whether or not such ia your custom, to make an estimate and
tile it in the office?
A. Yes, in every tract.
Q.
And you followed that custan in tlia oaae?
A. Yes sir.
Q,.
you know whether this property has been cruised by anyone else prior to this
time?
A. The regular cruisers had been over it.
Q.
Do you, or did you know what there estimate was at the time you made your estimate, or not?
A. No air, never do until after I make my report.
Q.
Never do until after you make your report?
Q.
I will ask you how tar do you reside from this tract?
A. I suppose about eighteen miles.
Q.
Had you ever been on the tract before you made this check estimate, or not?
A. I had been through it at different placea through Powell's Gap way; I
don't recall all of the names of the Gapa, but I have been over this tract
several times through two roadways, through Powell's Gap and some other, I
can't think ot all the names.
,
Q.
Now, in your view of this tract, state where you found the timber, with regardto accessability. State 'whether or not your view disclosed to you whether or
not the tract had been previously cut over and to Vthat extent, and where the
timber that remained standing, it it had been cut over, in a general way.
A. I want to know that I am right----- The Gap that goes back ot Grottoes
or the old :turn.ace, Brown's Gap, that has been cut over I suppose seventyfive years ago ror charcoal wood, lumber, cut close, possibly down to four
inches. That country through there had been cut close at that time no doubt,
and no doubt had been cut over since. There is quite a young growth 'there remaining, and the left hand aide of it, the south slopes are pretty much coming pack in pine, some ot it ten, twelve and some fourteen inches in diameter,
and very scattered over the entire area in that watershed. Then, in the ame.11er runs, facing northwest out toward Grottoes, is mostly pine, some hardwoods
in the hollows, some_on the higher slopes, chestnut oak, red oak and stuff like
that. Most ot the large timber is found in the cove or lower slope types.
Q,.
Were you ever consulted by anyone in regard to a sale o:r this property or a
sale ot the timber on this property or any portion ot this property; did anyone approach you sul:lnitting any proposition ot purchase?
Do
A. No sir.
-17(,'l
�A. Yea, about three years ago --Q.
Who?
A. Mr. Hogshead, :rrom Staunton, w1 th a mining engineer; three or tour gentlemen
was down at my house there one evening.
Q.
Who did they claim to be represent ing?
.A.. ilexander Estate.
BY MR. TAVENER: Objection is maje to anything that reported represent atives 01' :r.
A.Alexand er may have represent ed, because it is a recorded tact in the case now
pending in the Circuit Court ot Rockingham County that :r. A. ilexander hae pl"llctically no equit7 in the property and that the present claimant• , who are lienors
and determine d by the Court, cannot be bound by anything that Mr. Hogshead may have
said or attempted to do. The present claimants do not know Mr. Hogshead or in what
capacity he may have attempted to act, and any testimony in connectio n with Mr.
Hogshead 110uld be immateria l, irrelevan t and, at the least, hearsay testimOny .
A. As a committee , or stockhold ers in that tract of land, the way they informed me. They asked me whether I would be intereste d in putting in a few
mills on the Alexande r tract; namely, in Big Run and several other smaller
hollows there that they claimed there was a lot of timber on. They were very
anxious to get a mill in there and they would like me to form a kind of
stock company and let me operate it, and three of them turnish three-fou rths
ot the capital and I was to turnish one-fourt h and run the thing and share
fifty-fif ty in the proceeds. I had never looked over the timber on the tract,
but I had several friends I knew who knew the tract, and I made a date with
them to go over there, but, after learning, through these friends, about the
tract, I cancelled the date and said I wasn't intereste d at all. From what
little knowledge I had of the tre.ct, I didn't think at the time that I would
be intereste d because the timber was too scattered and too small and ot
cheap quality.
Q.
After you actually went on the tract in your capacity as an employee of the
State Ccmmission on Conserva tion and Development, what kn.CJl'tledge did you
gain with regard to whether or not the timber now standing on that tract;
that is, merchanta ble standing timber, as to whether or not that timber
'
could be cut, sawed and marketed at a profit?
A. Well, there 1• only one watershed on the whole tract that I consider
110rth gathering up, and that is Big Run. That has more than half' the timber
on the tract. It has had no road through it tor years and years. The road
construct ion out there would not be any great amount, and a man could take
small mills in there and operate, under normal condition s, and possibly make
a little profit, but in this day and time there ain't none of' it would be
profitabl e on the entire tract. I wouldn't go in there u an operator and
gather 1t up under present market condition s and the grade ot timber that ia
found on it, at gift.
BY MR. TAVENER: Objection is made to the answer ot the w1 tness in so tar as what
he may want to do is entirely immateria l to the question involved, and what he
thinks he might get out (?1' the timber is also immateria l.
REPLY BY COUNSEL BOR PE'I'ITIONER: It is insisted that the testimony of' this witness is not only very material, but entitled to the highest c011sider ation as coming from a man who has spent more than thirty-fiv e years of his lite, as testified
to by him, in cutting, sawing, buying, selling and marketing timber.
-18-
�Q.
What is the character of the soil as to fertility, as to being smooth or rocky,
steep or otherwise?
A. It is just like all mountain land through that whole section; some of it is
tairly smooth, same of it that has a fair depth of soil, and some of the
roughest in the entire Park area, mainly black rock, and the entrance in Big
Run, tor instance; that tract could haul rocks away indefinitely for years;
some of it is cliff and some smooth ridge land.
Q.
.Is any ot this twenty-two thousand acres under fence, so far as you know?
A. I didn't examine it close for tillable land or for the grazing; I only
looked at it trom the timber standpoint; therefore, I devoted all my time
to the timbered area.
Q.
Are there many roads through this tract?
A. Roads pretty much all over the tract. It shows by the old roads that there
has been lumber wood, bark, charcoal wood and everything else taken out there
tor the past sixty or seventy-five years.
Q.
In making your examination and report that you testified you made and tiled,
did either embrace any standing timber under ten inches breast high?
A. No sir; that is the standard l'Ule on estimating timber trom a lumber standpoint. When I look at it as a saw mill man, I don't consider anything under
that unless I em looking for stave wood, and I never consider anything that
would not make a cross-bar, and you cannot make a cross-bar under ten inches.
Q.
Then, that is a standing l'Ule amongst lumbermen, measuring timber ten inches,
breast high?
A. Yes, in cruising timber.
Q.
Did you discover any stave timber, or not, on this tract?
A. It just depends on what kind you are hunting.
Q.
Did you find any that you thought was valuable?
A. No, there is plenty ot stave timber on there that could be used tor slack
barrel stock. You sea, they don't care whether they out that with the grain
or cross or any other way.
Q.
Was that timber that you consider might be valuable as slack stave wood timber accounted tor in any manner in your estimate of the quantity ot standing
timber?
A. Nothing under ten inches, no sir.
Q.
How about the fuel wood, anything there valuable as tuel wood?
A. We estimated about six hundred cords there that lay out near the railroad
that could be sold tor about titty cents a cord. From the track that would be
accessable.
A.. Yes.
Q. That was accounted tor by you?
Q.
Did you tind any tanbark?
A. I don't recall whether we gave any tanbark or not. There were ao nu,ny
tracts, and I don't try to memorize those things. If there was any bark found
on there,it was in that report.
Q.
I hand you a paper which purports 'to be a report, or rather two reports, signed
by you and J. W. Shifflet, and ask you whether or not these were the reporta
that you made covering your c·ru1ae and estimate and inspection ot these tracts
-19•
�o:t land, and 1:t so, I will ask you to read the same to the Board and tile them
as Exhibits A and B with your testimony. I will ask you it these are the reports you have testified to, and it not, what reports are they?
A. No sir, these are the original reports that I made ott of the tract.
Q.
Did you sign both name?
A. Yea sir, I was authorized to sign his nane to the report. Mr. Shi:tt'let lives
in MoGagheysville. He will speak tor himselt on that.
Q.
Will you tell the Board what that report -- Read the report.
A. This covers an area ot 19,344 acres in Rockingham County. The estimated eoat
ot operation on taat tract is twenty-one dollars, w1 th an average sale price of
twenty-two dollars and ti.tty cents, leaving a stumpage value ot one dollar and
a halt. Do you want me to read this in detail?
Q.
You :tound a dollar and a halt per thousand teat board measure, standing, to be
the value ot the timber?
A. Yes.
Q.
You arrived at that value by deducting the cost, which, in your opinion, it would
amount to to cut, saw and place the timber on the market?
A. On board cars or on the open market, yea.
Q.
Did you undertake to make out a ditterent schedule covering ditterent varieties,
or was that an average of all vari eti ea?
A. You mean ot the different species ot timber?
Q.
Yes.
A. I gave it titty percent ot pine, thirty percent o:t mixed oak, ten percent ot
poplar and ten pel'Cent of others, such as maple, hickory and others that go to
make up the stand on the whole area.
Q.
Did you find any extract lumber on that tract, and did you give it any value,
and it not, why not?
A. · There is some extract wood on there - dead chestnut. No, we didn't estimate
any dead chestnut on the whole area, bee.a.use extract plants had given ott buying it at all. I believe now they do take in small amounts on old contraota.
By the time you cut, got out and loaded it on cars, it would not have had any
value at all, no stumpage value lett.
Q.
Did you arrive at any conclusion as to the value o:t the land, exclusive of the
timber?
A. No sir, no estimate, because I didn't go on that tract With that intention;
I just went on to check the cost of operation on that tr,ct.
Q.
What, in your opinion, based upon .your experience as a lumberman and upon your
knowledge of the timber standing on this tract and the cost ot marketing the
same, and the prices ot the class and species of timber now growing on this
tract, is a fair, cash market value of' the timber; that is, merchantable timber standing on the tract? ·
A. I wouldn't suppose it would tigure more than twenty or twenty-five cents an
acre. I didn't figure it out; that way I don't know what it would 1.'igure out.
Q.
Do
you have the price of that timber covered in your report there?
A. No, I haven't got it carried out; I haven't got it multiplied by the number
ot feet, the price per thousand. I could mighty soon tell you it you want it
figured out.
-2000
�Q.
That is What I want, for the sake of the record. What is the fair, cash ~ket
price or the merchantable timber standing on that tract?
A. It would figure out about two thousand nine hundred and forty dollars; that
is less the wood, the wood would have to came in there. The wood and timber in
there in Augusta County .---
Q.
Get a Rockingham stand, it you can.
A. Two thousand nine hundred and forty dollars.
Q.
I would like youto give me what, in your opinion, is the fair, cash market value
of the tract of land ot nineteen thousand five hundred fifty-tour acres in Rockingham County exclusive ot timber.
A. My judgment on i:t -- I don't know what they ever figured on it; I was never
called on to figure on it from that standpoint, but I think two dollars an acre
is a big price tor it.
Q.
Did you see any buildings on this property?
A. No sir, I didn't pay any attention to cleared land or grazing land. I only
took in the timbered area. We spent nine days on that, and I was pushed tor other
work and I didn't look over that part of it.
Q.
Did you see any cleared land?
A. By the Old Furnace.
Q.
About how many acres?
A. I wooldn't like to say.
Q.
Well, was it a large area or a small one?
A. A small area was cleared up there, to my knowledge.
Q.
Is the land valuable from any practical standpoint that you know of other than
the timber that is growing on it? .
BY MR. TAVENER: Question is objected to
BY MR. AlMSTRONG: Question
w1 thdrawn.
Q.
Will you please read everything that you have on your report?
A. I will read this like I have it down here. Nineteen thousand three hundred
forty-tour acres of timbered ar,ea in Rockingham County; an estimate of one
million, nine hundred sixty thousand board feet. The estimated cost of operation on this tract, cutting logs, two dollars a thousand, road construction
fifty cents. EverythiDg is per thousand. Skidding, tour dollars; sawing, five
dollars; hauliDg, average over tract, five dollars; earring, one dollar;
operator's profit, twenty percent on same, three dollars and fifty cents;
total estimated cost, twenty-one dollars per thousand. The average sale price,
I will leave it to any lumberman here today it this amount of two dollars and
fifty cents isn't more than you could get for it today. Average sale price
twenty-two dollars and fifty cents a thousand, leaving a stumpage value of
a dollar and fifty cents per thousand board feet. Here is a little notation
below here. "Owing to the scattered stand ot timber and species and grades ot
what merchantable timber is standing on this tract, it could not be operated
at a profit at all." Signed "J.W.Shiftlet" and"J. A. Shifflet~ check estimator.
~.
Now, are you able to answer the question asked by the commission; how many feet
·
of timber do you find on the tract?
A. One million, nine hundred sixty thousand bee.rd feet; average stumpage value
ot a dollar and fitty cents on allot i1t.
-21.701
�Q.
Was there any large body ot tililher, or· we.a it scattered?
A. More than halt ot the timber on the entire area is tound in Big Bun watershed, and that has been cut on both sides and center up as tar as they could
get it out, with the exception ot white pine. There is sane white pine in
there and some nice poplar, and that has white pine in there as much as twentytiTe or twenty-eight inches in diameter, and that is a large percentage ot the
merchantable timber tound in there that could be operated at all at a profit,
and that is tound in the headwaters and ditterent parts or torks ot Big Bun,
way up. When you get in the ridge type ot it, it is noahing but rocks and there
is no timber at all up there. The timber is tound in the cove and the lower
slopes, and you find the same evidence ot former cutting that you find over
the rest ot the tract. It has been out over. There is also some mixed oak that
has come on since then. We estimated everything that we thought would make
any merchantable timber in the way ot ties or anything.
cross EXAMINATION BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
Mr. Shifflet, I notice that although you have been requested several times to
read this stata:nmt, you have each time avoided reading the itemized statemmt
of the number ot feet in each one ot these runs, although you have read everything else in detail.
A. That was just en oversight; I didn't mean to do that. I give you the total
there.
Q.
You were an.ployed by the government to go there end check estimates that had
previously been made by the regular cruisers?
A. Yea.
Q.
Who were they?
A. Mr. Smith and Mr. Witt, I believe, worked there.
Q.
Is Mr. Witt here?
Q.
Mr. Sm1 th has already testified?
Q.
You have stated that you bad no previous information whatever as to what Mr.
Smith had tound on these tracta?
A. Yea.
Q.
Ana. I find tran examining your statement, in comparison with Mr. Smith's, that
you found to the exact toot the same number ot teet on Swamp Bun that Mr.Smith
A. Yes.
A. Yes.
seems to have reported, the same amount to the toot. I no~iced also that you
found on Madison Run two hundred ti:tty thousand feet, the exact same number ot
teet that Mr. Snith :tound; on Mile Dm the exact same number ot teet, titty
thousand; on Two Mile Run, fifty thousand teet; on Big Run, exactly the seme,
one million two hundred seventy-five thousand feet. Now, you mean to tell the
00lllllission that you didn't know aeything about Mr. Smith's report?
A. I do. I heard Mr. Smith testit'y that he round two million three hundred and
aome thousand teet.
Q.
When did you go on this t:re.ct?
A. August twenty-ninth to September ninth I think it was.
Q.
Were you on that property all ot those nine working days?
A. Yea.
Q.
You seem to have done as much work then, Mr. Shit:tlet, in nine days as it took
Mr. Smith trom Jlecember 11th to January 20th, with the exception ot tour days,
Nine working days.
-22J
�to do?
A.. That's easy; Mr. Smith had a map, compass to work by ---
Q. - I insist that you answer the question .
BY MR. AIMSTRONG: I insist that the
Q.
w1 tness be
given a chance to explain why.
I asked you it you did not make the same estimate in nine days that it took
Mr. Smith trom the 11th day ot Deoeber to the 20th day ot January to do,
nth the exceptio n ot tour daya.
A. I don't know how long it took Mr. Bmith.
Q.
You heard Mr. Smith testity that it took him trom the 11th day ot Decanber
to the 29th day ot January , 1931, to oruiae thia property , exceptin g tour
days of' bad weather?
A. Yea, I heard that.
Q.
Now, you tell the Commission that you did the same work in nine daya?
•• No sir, we did not do the same 1'0rk.
Q.
Will you describe the method in which you cruised that property ?
A. I don't think it is necessar y to tell the Commis sioners- ---
Q.
This ia not only a matter for the Commissioners, but a matter for the inf'orma- tion of the Court, and I just ask that you answer the question s as nearly aa
you can.
A. I don't examine the land in the same manner that Mr. Sm1 th doea. He gees
on there w1 th a detailed map. He has to do all that measurin g and counting
trees; he's got to map in his differen t types and his timber, burned timber
slopes and his unburned over slopes and all such things as that.
Q.
Now, pl>ease tell us how you do it. Mr. Smith has already told us how he did it.
How did you make your estimate s of' the amount of timber on this tract?
A. Just walking over the watersh eds. I don't do any chain or any compass or any
detailed work at all.
Q.
Will you locate on your map Swamp Creek?
A. I didn't examine it w1 th this kind of map. I just examined it with a sketch
map.
Q.
Now, you have stated that you had a map showing the outside boundar ies. I now
reter you, sir, to the map filed as Exhibit No. l for the petition er, which
shows the outside boundary lines of the Mount Vernon tract, which I em pointing out with the pencil, showing Bockingham County, Augusta line, Albemarle
line and all outside boundar ies. Now, will you state to the COJllllission where
Swamp Run is?
A. This here is the Brown Ge.p neighbor hood in here; Swamp .Run, I believe, is
right about in there (pointin g to map). Mr. Shiffle t, who was with me, knew
all these hoilows by n811le, distance and everythi ng.
~.
You have pointed out as Swamp Run the first run to the northea st of Madison
Bun?
A.To the best ot my knowledge, yes; I don't know the names.
Q.
Will you point out Two Mile Run on the map, which you examined and found the
timber on?
A. There were four or five runs in here would have more names than what this
map shows; I wouldn' t be positive :from this map. It I had my map that we wrote
-23-
�the names down on, then I would have it, but to stand up here and testi:f'y" as
to the names of these runs that are not named there and that I am not familiar
with, I would not testity to that.
Q.
You have known tor quite a tew months that you were going to be a Witness in
thia case?
A. I supposed I would be.
Q.
Now, aa a matter of tact, the run that you pointed out aa being Swamp Run is
wr1 tten on the map as being Deep Run, and, tor your informati on, I will state
to you that Swamp Run was testified by Mr. Smith to be right where he has
drawn pencil marks to the southwest ot Madison Dm. So, as a matter ot tact,
Mr. Shifflet, you are not very f8llli.liar w1 th the land, at all?
A. I never examined the land until I was called on to go in there and check
the estimate in the middle ot September, and these are the two watershed s I
know by name. Brown's Gap and these other little hollows are ot very little
value and I never paid any attention to them, and just noted down in my book
so much in each little watershed and noted it all up.
Q.
The whole map ot that area is pretty much ot a haze in your mind?
Oh, no.
.&..
Q.
You took a sort ot bird's eye view of the whole thing in a very few days?
BY MR. ~RONG : Question objected to because the witness has testified as to the
exact number of days.
A. I might answer his question just this way; the large territory that the
small amount was found on, it would only take a bird's eye view to find at
all.
Q,.
Where did you know it w~d be found if you didn't talk to anyone else?
A. I was supposed to go in all the watershed s. It's natural to suppose that
it there is any timber, it would be in the watershed s, not up on the top ot
the mountain.
Q.
Did you have your field glasses on this trip?
A. No, I don't carry them.
Q.
Did the other Mr. Shifflet have them?
Q.
Who guided you over the property?
A. Nobody. Mr. Shifflet is vecy familiar with the tract.
Q.
Did anyone else go w1 th you?
A. No sir; there was another man in there, but I never seen him at all.
Q,.
How tar up Big Run did you go?
A. As tar as you can see any timber there in all them there hollows up the
upper lett hand tork and up in those small hollows up in here there is good
timber. The best ot the timber is tound in there.
Q..
Ia that good timber?
Q.
Isn't it excellent timber?
Q.
Did you leave a mark up there along that trail?
•
A. No.
A. Yes sir, good white pine.
.&.. No sir.
-24-
A. Yes sir.
�Q.
Was that the point that you stopped?
Q.
Which way did you go?
Q.
The lef't hanct dratt from there?
Q.
Did you go in all this territory to the southeast ot Big Run? /
A. No sir, not allot it; there's nothing in there to go tor. We went in tar
enough to determine that there we.a nothing there to go tor. It is natural to
believe when this cutting stopped and you found no timber above the cutting
line and know no timber was on the high slopes or mountain top, it was useless to cruise out between those two points tor merchantable timber.
Q.
So you made no cruise to the southeast ot Big Run because, in your opinion,
it was natural to think that there was no timber there?
A. We investigated f'ar enough to know that there was no merchantable timber
above there.
A. No sir.
A. Kept up the main dratt.
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you hear Mr. Smith testify that there was just as much timber to the
southwest of' Big Run as there was to the northeast?
A. I heard you ask him the question; I don't recall just what his answer was;
but I know what his answer should have been.
Q.
Q.
Q.
Then you found one million two hundred seventy-five
the northe,st side ot that run where Mr. Smith said
side as the other?
A. I don't know what Mr. Smith f'ound. I found about
f'eet on the entire area than Mr. Sm1 th and Mr. Witt
thousand f'eet of timber on
there was as much on one
tour hundred thousand more
f'ound.
How many days did you spend in Swamp Run?
A. Didn't spend a day. We spent very little time in Swamp Run.
How much time in Madison Run?
A. That is Powell's Ge.p?
Q.
No, Brown's Gap.
Q.
How :many days did you spend in Deep Run?
A. In Deep Bun. -- I don't recall. We spent five days in the small hollows and
two days in Big Run and two days in Brown's Gap Watershed.
Q.
Now, you made this cruise in August and September?
Q,.
It is true, isn't it, that you can cruise about twide the amount ot timber
when the leaves are off than you can when they are on the trees?
A. I would much rather cruise at a time like this. I can get a better cruise
with a heap less walking.
Q.
You can be more accurate, can you not?
A. I don't know as you ccnld, it you examine an acre and. multiply it by the
number ot acres covered in the area, after cruising through it enough to be
certain that your cruise is a f'air estimate ot it.
A.
A. We spent
t1lo
days in there.
A. Yes.
I
Q. Then you figured out an acre and multiplied the number ot f'eet on taat acre
by the number of acres that you thought were in the tract?
A. Well now, sometimes --- No sir, we did not do that.
Q.
How did you cruise this tract?
-25705
�A. By an occular estimate; going over the watersheds and putting down in
figures what we found in .each and every hollow and adding it up for the
whole whatersheds.
Q.
Did you figure the acres in these watersheds?
A. Yea.
Q.
How many in Big Run?
A. I don't recall. I said there was so many thousand feet in Big Run, and
so many in Deep Run, and so on.
Q.
Now, Mr. Shifflet, you are sumiaing and guessing in your deposition; we
want to know what you did and how it was done.
A. I told you ·as plain _aa I could.
Q.
Do you have available the acreage of these tracts?
A. Ot the whole area?
Q.
Yea.
A. Yes.
Q.
Did you not leave the impression on this Commission that you were figuring
the acreage in timber along each one ot these runs?
A. No sir, I didn't say that.
Q.
Will you deeoribe, in detail, how you made this occular estimation in the
various runs; say, for instance, a hundred and fifty thousand feet in Swamp
'Bun?
A. I have answered that I think three times.
Q.
But you have answered it in a way that there could be two or three interpretations on it; I want that cleared up so that the record is clear.
A. I will state again, plainly, that the estimate was placed in watersheds or
hollows in each and every hollow that we went in regardless ot acreage ot
that hollow or the entire tract; then we added that up and made a total of
one million, nine hundred sixty thousand board feet, distributed over the
nineteen thousand three hundred forty-four acres, or whatever it is.
Q.
Now, you have stated that you had your mind on other things and that you did
not examine this land carefully enough to see if there was any cleared land
or not; that was the statement made by you in your examination in chief. It
that statement is correct, how· can you be accurate as to the amount or number
of feet on that area, from your own knowledge, if you did not look at the
area carefully enough?
A. I only went there to check the timber, and my time we.a spent entirely on
the timbered area, and my estimate was based on what I found in the watersheds and figured out so much per acre on the entire area.
Q. How much timber did you find at the toe ot t~e mountain, down by Big Run,which
we claim 1a pretty nearly two thousand acres of flat land - how much timber?
A. About fifty thousand board feet and six hundred cords ot fuel wood.
Q.
Now, I notice tbat you have placed a value ot tifty cents a cord on that wood.
you not know that the people in that locality are now paying a dollar a
cord tor that wood on the stump, tor wood right at the edge or the Mount Vernon tract of real estate?
A. I don't know what they are paying. If they have no other place to get it,
they would pay whatever the property owner would request, that's logical.
Do
By Counsel: That is up to the Commission to determine what is logical to them. We
•26-
�Will never get through with this case at this rate. I am asking you tor tacts.
Q. You were a ranger tor how many years?
.
Q. And you sold timber tor the government?
Q.
A. Four •
A. Yea.
What price did you get, on the stump, tor that timber?
A. In briar patches or swamps to go through,twenty -tive cents a cord.
Q.
Q.
Did you ever sell wood tor stave wood?
A. No.
Don't you know the standard government price is one dollar a oord on the stump?
A. No sir, I don't know taat.
Q. You have stated that it took tourteen inch pine tor oil barrel staves, but you
have said nothing about apple barrels and lime barrel staves. It is a tact that
that is the chief barrel business in this section, is it not?
A. When there is any market tor anything at all it is tor apple and lime.
Q.
I am not asking you it or when or anything like that. Do you not know that the
chiet stave business in this section is tor apple barrels and lime barrels?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How low in size twelve inches above the ground can timber be used tor apple
barfela or lime barrels?
A. I have seen them cut it down to tour or five inch stutt.
Q, •
.And you have not measured anything below ten inches, breast high?
A. No.
Q.
There are roads running in and out through a great part of this property. They
make p:ractioally all of this timber accessable to market, the standing timber
over the whole place?
J.. Sure, it illiminatea the cost ot making roe.de, but you take such a road today
that has been used thirty-five or torty years ago, it will almost cost- as much
to repair it as it would to build it.
Q.
I noticed you put down "Operator's profit, $3.50" in your estimate in getting
out this wood.
J.. That is twenty percent; no operator will get it out tor less.
Q.
It you woUld illiminate this twenty percent protit, then the value ot this timber on the stump would be five dollars an acre instead ot a dollar and a half'?
A. Yes, I guess so, a thousand.
Q.
Now, according to your report, the n1.1mber ot teat amounts to one million nine
hundred sixty thousand; then, at five dollars a thousand, that would make that
timber worth nine thousand eight hundred dollars, would it not?
A. No air, how can you tigure three dollars and titty cents it you do not operate it. It wouldn't be worth any more to a man after he operated it.
Q.
Taking your own report, Mr. Shittlet, in which you put a stumpage value ot a
dollar and a halt on the timber and then charged up against the owners this
three dollars and a halt profit to someone operating it; put these two figures
together and it will make five dollars a thousand value on the stump, will it
not?
A. I will answer that question this way; it you was the owner ---27-
�Q.
We don't want its now, we want tacts.
BY MR. A™STRONG: This witness is trying to explain in his own way, and I insist
that he has a right to do so.
J.. As an operator, a man t'urnishing money and equipment going into an operation of that kind, is entitled to, or would be bound to figure on an operator's
profit. It he don't operate it, he is not entitled to the profit; it he does
operate, he is entitled to it on that twenty percent basis. If I am the owner
and I operate it, I have that much out of it; it I don't operate it myself, the
men that does operate it is entitled to it; therefore, the land owner, it he
operates it, why, in a sense, he geta profit and stumpage; it he don't operate,
he only gets the stumpage value. That is my explanation.
Q.
It the owners ot the Mount Vernon tract ot real estate wanted to deliver that
timber to the railroad station, according to your own statement, it would cost
seventeen dollars and titty cents, would it not?
J.. Yes, plus the operator's profit there, I suppose.
Q. Mr. Shifflet, if we deliver that timber to the station there would be no operating profit to ourselves, but it would have three dollars and fifty cents more
value on the stump, would it not?
J.. In that case 7ou call it "stumpage value", where we call it "operator's and
stumpage value".
Q.
.According to your statement, the timber can be delivered, on an average through
this whole property, to the railroad station for aeve-*een dollars and fifty
cents, by ourselves?
A. I don't know just what it figures out there; twenty-one dollars I believe is
the total. Alright, seventeen - fifty, if that is what it figures out.
Q.
Now, this suit was instituted on December 11, 1930. Do you not know that the
value of timber at tbat time, on board cars, varied between twenty-two dollars
and fifty cents and thirty dollars a thousand, according to the grade of timber,
is that correct?
A. DecE111ber 11th, 1930 -- No sir, that is not correct. That ain't the average on
it. I shipped switch ties before and after that time, a larg@ percentage ot
which was mixed oak, and they brought eighteen and nineteen a thousand F.O.B.
cara.
Q.
Have not you stated here twenty-two dollars and titty centa?
A. I allowed two dollars and fifty cents more per thousand than you could get
today on that class ot lumber. We tried not to take today's prices tor everything.
Q.
you not know that the standard govermnen.t price ot staves is one dollar a
cord on the stump?
A. No air, I don't know that. I do know that that class of lumber is 1D rth
titteen cents in Harrisonburg today - scrub pine.
Do
By Counsel: I object to your testimony as to what this lumber may be worth today.
Q.
Now, you said that long years ago there was some cutting of timber over thi s
property, is that correct?
A. I said tor the last seventy-five years it has been cut over from time to
time.
-287oS
�Q,.
Would you tell the COIIIDission th.at there has been any material cutting there
in the last seventeen years?
A. No, I believe Hoaiah Shiftlet told me that he was the last operator in Big
Run about twenty years ago.
Q.
great deal of the timber on this property is timber that is in condition to
grow and i:nc·rease in value, 18 it not?
J.. Oh yes, there is some nice young reproductio n there.
Q,.
And for the past seventeen years it has been growing and increasing in value,
haan't it?
A. In the lut five years it haa lost more than it has gained in the last
A
twenty.
Q.
Mr. Shifflet, over a period ot seventeen years, wouldn't the natural growth ot
timber cause that timber to increase in value?
Well, it hasn't reached the point in size yet where it would increase in value
to the owner.
Q..
Ot course, you mean some of it hasn't, where, on the other hand, sane ot it
has?
A. Well, the majority hasn't.
Q,.
But the million nine hundred thousand feet has been increasing in value tor the
past f'itteen or twenty years?
A. It has decreased in value tor the last tour or five years.
Q.
It we are able to show, Mr. Shifflet, a timber value of $22.50, which you have
admitted by your statement somewhere near what is just and right, wouldn't you
say that that timber has increased in value since 1913 or 1914?
A. No sir, it has deereued. In 1913 and 1914 I could have gotten for most ot
that stutt twenty-five dollars a thousandJ today you can only get fifteen and
twenty.
Q.
It may be that the price per thousand feet may be less today than in 1913, but
there is more timber there, isn't there?
A. How much more.
Q.
Well now, it you are a timber man, how much, under ordinary conditions, does
timber increase in value per acre?
A. In white pine thirty-five or forty years gives you a tair cutting.
Q.
What is the standard rule for increase per acre?
A. Well, very 81118.ll, vecy small.
Q.
Well, do you know, or don't you know?
A. I wouldn't attempt to put it down to the traction of an inch; the different
species have dit:t'erent growths. The white pine and chestnut and poplar grow
veey rapidly.
Q. There is no more difticulty in getting the wood out over these various roads
that you have described than there is the timber, is there?
A. You mean tuel wood?
Q.
Yes.
A. No, there is not.
�BY MR. WHITE:
Q.
I understood you to say, I believe, that you did not consider or report any
value to growing timber that was below ten inches tour teet above the ground?
A. No sir.
Q.
With the distinct und•rste.nding that I am not taking any part in the claim ot
Wallace c. Saunders, tor the reasons heretotore stated, I desire to ask the
witness a few questions as one of the COl!lllissioners appointed by the Circuit
Court of Rockingham County to sell the property in question.
Mr. Shifflet, I understood you to say that some of the roughest land that you
have ever seen was on this tract.
A. I said some ot it is rough.
Q.
You described it as being rocky cliffs and rocks; in other words, rather
picturesque property, some ot it, is that correct?
A. I migbt answer that question in this way; would you know where it I wcw.d
tell you where? Have you ever been on the place?
Q.
I am asking you.
A. There is some o:t the roughest land in the Blue Ridge area in there.
Q.
Is a right considerable portion o:t this land of that character?
A. Yes sir, righii smart ot it. It you would go up and take a view of it, you
would find my statement is correct.
Q.
Q.
If you take a view as you have said, then you find possibly most of the picturesque land on this area as in the whole Park area?
A. It is roug.
Do we understand the situation when I say that this area is picturesque?
A. You mean over the whole area?
Q.
Yea.
A. No, some is rougher there.
Q.
You have been working tor the Park tor sixteen months?
Q.
Approximately how much land of the nineteen thousand five hundred fifty-tour
acres is ot the character that I am talking about now?
.l. I wouldntt be able to say. The cruisers who chained it and separated the
different types, they have that measurement down by acres, and my estimate
could not be considered any ways accurate at all of such acreage.
Q.
Touching your anployment by the Commission, you have understood that the State
desires to take this land over for park purposes?
A. That is right.
Q.
Is the land that I have referred to and have especially in mind in asking
these questions possibly the most valuable land on the whold Park area for
park purposes?
A. Yee.
BY MR. ARMSTRONG: Question is objected to as what the land would be worth to petitioner tor petitioner's purposes is no criterion ot value or for the ascertaining
ot damages, now is such evidence admissable to show what it would be worth tor
petitioner's purposes.
BY MR. WHITE: I respectfully sul:mit that the question did not ask the witness the
value ot this land to the petitioner; the question specifically asked and celled
-30110
�tor an answer as to 1 ts value tor park purposes.
BY MR. AIMSTRONG: This w1 tness does not know what lands are valuable tor park purposes, or the value ot lands tor park purposes. The witness is not qualified to
answer any such question.
BY MR. WHITE: The witness has been introduced by the petitioner and he has been
asked a question as to the value ot the land as a whole, and the witness put a valuation on the land as a whole at two dollars an acre, and, having been introduced
and question on the value of the land as a whole, we submit the question is proper
and ask the witness to answer it as man to man.
A. Well, that depends upon the view point from which you would take it into
consideration. That rough land, in my judgment, I wouldn't think ot aey value
to anybody tor any purpose.
Q..
I am asking you tor park purposes.
A. Well, not being just familiar with parks -- I never visited very many parks,
and not being familiar with just what they want and try to have, and which is
the most valuable and so forth, my estimate on this land I have just described
to you, I would think would be very high to any body other than the government
tor park purposes or to till up a hole in the ground at ti.tty cents an acre.
Q..
For park purposes is it as valuable as any land in the park area?
BY MR. AINSTRONG: Q,uestion is further objected to on the ground that it has not
been shown as to what constitutes value tor park purposes, even it the question
were admissable.
A. Wall, I will have to answer just about like I did before. From a park standpoint, or a view standpoint, or a recreationel standpoint, it is just a matter
ot a cluster o:r rooks there, it would be just about as valuable as the timber
below, if the timber would never be cut ott it, but ccmneroially it would not
be worth titty cents an acre.
Q.
Is this land just as valuable as any other land in the area tor park purposes?
A. I don't le.now. I em not just familiar With what they want.
Q.
You have been working tor them, and don't know what they want?
A. I know if they run a line around, they are compelled to take the land.
Q.
Do you not know the object ot acquiring this land?
A. For park purposes. ot course.
Q.
That rough land, you know, is tor park purposes?
A. There is a very small percent or the people who visit a park who are going
to risk their lives climbing around over clitts and rocky bars.
Q.
Are the trees on thia land as valuable tor park purposes as tor cutting end
marketing?
BY MR. AIMSTRONG: Same objection.
A. I had considered them more valuable in a growing condition standing there
than by being removed, because there is a value allowed tor them in the report.
-31-.
ll l
�Q.
And these trees, standing there, are more valuable than tor manufacturing?
A. Sure, or we wouldn't show any value.
-
BE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR • .AHdSTroNG:
Q,.
Did you discover any evidence in any portions of this tract ot having been
burned over recently?
A. In the Big lbn area, badly rumed.
Q.
Did you discover any evidence of any of the timber having died on account ot
the dry weather or drought?
A. Well, outside the pine; the tire didn't seem to kill the pine, but outside
the pine, there is hardly any young timber on it.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. TAVENER:
Q. They are up in the ridges, are they not?
A.. On the slopes, yea.
Q.
Q.
They are not down where the bulk ot this timber is found?
A. Yes sir, there is quite a bit ot pine in this estimate that
burned area.
was
in this
Will you tell me, speci:f'ically, where there has bean any timber ot any value
destroyed by fire other than on those ridges which have really not been in•
cluded in these estimates?
A. There is timber in this estimate that bas been burned over.
Q. How much?
A. Twenty-five to forty thousand teat.
Q.
But you have returned that in your estimate?
A. That is counted in there.
Q.
Then, there has been nothing destroyed to speak ot by tire at any time recent•
ly, because you have allo110d twenty-five to forty thousand feat in the burned
area?
A. Yes sir.
Q,.
And that burned area is on the ridges?
A. Yes, it covers the whold south slope on the lett hand side of Big Run.
Q.
.As a Ranger in the western part of Rockingham County, how much was paid by
the goTernment tor that land per acre?
A. That varied trom a dollar and sixty cents, I believe to possibly five dollars an acre.
Q.
Isn't there plenty of land ot equal value to this that the government has been
and is now paying tour dollars an acre for?
A. I don't know what they are paying tor it. I think the area in the National
Forest was three dollars a thousand, and there is millions and millions of teet
in there. It is about ti:tteen miles trom the railroad.
Q.
And a lot ot the area is qui ta inaccessable?
A. It could all be gotten out.
Q•
In examination-in-chief you mentioned the fact that some gentlemen approached
you three or four years ago in reference to putting up some capital with which
•32•IL
�to manufactu re timber on the Mount Vernon traot ot lend - Mr. Hogshead, I believe you said. Did they say they were prepared to put up titty thousand
dollars?
A. No, they wanted to organize i"our of us in a caupany, end I was to put in
titteen thousand dollars and they would have put up three-i"ou rtha.
Q.
.And they would have put in thirty-1"1 ve thousand dollars to handle timber,
according to your present estimate?
A. They had been mialet by somebody saying there was lots and lots ot timber
in there. They mentioned millions ot teet in Big Run.
Q.
Have you ever heard .ot anyone misleadin g Mr. Hogshead on a timber propositi on?
A. I don't know much about Mr. Hogshead.
Q. The i"act remains that Mr. Hogshead was Willing to put up thirty-fi ve thousand
dollars?
A. No, the three o t them.
Q.
Well, those gentlemen were Willing to put up thirty-fi ve thousand dollars?
A. I don't think they were Willing to put up anything at all. When it came to
putting up cash, I was to put up fifteen thousand cash and they were going to
ieaue stock tor the rest oi" it. I didn't want to mention that part ot it, but
they figure& fifteen thousand would start it oft, and they understoo d that I
had about titteen thousand that I wanted to put into timber.
Q.
But, the fact remains that those gentlemen .were Willing to put ·up thirty-fi ve
thousand dollars it you put up i"itteen thousand dollars?
A. It was to be a fifty thousand dollar corporati on.
Q.
What Mr. Hogshead was that?
A. I don't know.
And further th1 s deponent saith not.
�MR. s. H. MA.Rm, a witn ess of lawtul. age, bein g
duly- sworn, depo ses and says as
follo ws:
Q.
Your age, plea se sir?
Q.
And your name?
Q.
What ottic ial posi tion do you hold as employee ot
the stat e Commission on Conserv ation and Development?
A. Supe rviso r ot the Shenandoah Nati onal Park Divi
sion of the Stat e Commission ·
on Cons erva tion and Development.
A. Fort y-th ree.
A. S. H. Mars h.
Q. Mr. Marsh, here tofo re toda y, we have had unde r
cons idera tion the valu e ot a
trac t of land in lbckingham County,
owned by
A• .Alexander, cont ainin g
appr oxim ately nine teen thou sand five hundred John
forty
ot your offic e show that John A. Alex ande r owns any-tou r acre s. Do the reco rds
gini a, with in the cont empl ated Shenandoah Nati onal land in Green County-, VirPark area , end, it so, how
many acre s?
A. Yes sir, the desc ripti on of the trac t which we had,
and which we have used ,
indi cate s that ther e is some land in Green and Albe
marl
e Coun ties on the east
aide ot the ridg e.
Q.
Q.
How much do you asce rtain is in Green County-?
A. Six hund red torty -tou r acre s in Green County.
Does that adjo in the Rockingham County trac t?
A. That adjo ins the lbokingham County trac
t on top of the Blue Bidge mountain
and exten ds acro ss
on the east ern slop e ot the Blue Ridg e.
Q.
Q.
Q.
Have you ever been upon the Green County Trac t?
For the purp ose of asce rtain ing it's tair , cash
A. Yes.
mark et valu e?
A. Yes.
What, in y-our opin ion, is the tair , cash mark et
valu e ot that trac t?
A. Six hund red eigh ty-on e doll ars.
Q.
What did you cons ider as making up that valu e?
A. Part of the trac t in Green County is very
badl y burn ed, ther e is no timb er
on it; it is barr en
moun tain slop e, clas sifie d
as follo ws:
641 acre s, slop e type at one doll ar an acre
, which is badl y burn ed, 2 acre s ot
graz ing land at fitte en
doll ars en acre , and l acre ot cult ivat ed land valu
ed
at ten doll ars per acre , making a tote. l of six hund
red eigh ty one doll ars.
Q. No build ings on the prop erty?
A. No sir.
Q. You toun d no merc hant able stand ing timb
er there ?
A. No sir.
Q.
Q.
Do you know ot any othe r pers on who has been upon
this prop erty to asce rtain
its tair , mark et valu e; that is, for purp oses ot
testi fyin g here ?
A. I don' t know whet her Mr. Ston ebur ner has been on
the land , or not.
Is the land smooth or rough?
A. Roug h.
Q. About how tar trom the near est publ ic plac e such
as post offic e or scho ol
hous e?
-34-
�A. Well, it is about, I should say, three miles south to Simmon's Gap.
There is a etore there and a mission on top ot the mountain. It is right
along the top ot the mountain, I should say three or possibly tour milee
trom the Gap.
Q.
And how tar is the nearest traveled public road?
A. That is the Simon's Ge.p road.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q. Mr. Marsh, are there not some additional lands on the east side ot the Blue
Ridge in Green County, which are included in the exterior boundary ot what
is known as the Haws Survey or the Hotchkiss Survey based upon the Haws SUrvey?
A. There are a nwnber ot grazing :farms included.
Q.
Can you give a:ny ot the names of the owners of these tarms that are included?
A. A part of the J. w. Hinkle tract, Ella F. Hickle, H. R. Eiler tract, c. L.
and J. c. Hedrick, w. P.R. Weaver, L. R. McFadden, Charles A. Hammer, Q. G.
Kaylor, John w. Breedon, Minnie E. Moore, G. w. Shif:tlet.
And turther th1 s deponent saith not.
MR. DONALD CAMPBELL, a w1 tness ot lawtul age, being duly sworn, deposes and says
as follows:
Q.
Your name is Donald Campbell, is it?
Q.
Do you mind stating your age, Mr. Campbell?
A. l!'itty-one coming February 20th.
Q,.
In what business have you bean engaged duriDg the past year we will say?
A. The tore part of the past year I was engaged in winding up a lumber company business in North Carolina.
A. Yes.
Q. Have you been engaged in the business of the State Commission on Conserva-
Q
Q.
tion and Development in the matter of examining lands within the proposed
Shenandoah National Park area.?
A. I have since August 22nd.
This year?
A. 1931, yes.
What bas been the nature of the work that you have done since that date?
A. Cruising and appraising the property of the John A. Alexander tract of
approximate ly twenty-two thousand acres.
BY MB. TAVENER: Do you mean property or timber?
A. I have reference to the timber land only, not inclusive of any farms or
buildings on the property.
Direct examination continued:
Mr. Campbell, what experience have_g~ had in cruising timber, buying and
Q.
115
�selling timber either for yourself or as agent for others, and what knowledge
have you of timber and timber values, and, in general, state brietly your ex•
perience and means of obtaining knowledge.
Pennsylvania,
of
State
the
in
A. I was the son ot the largest lumber operator
almost 1'rom
manager
office
and
the eldest son, and as such, was his bookkeeper
At the
life.
in
early
the age of twelve, which gave me a very wide experience
into
went
that,
age of sixteen I was able to run large lumber camps. From
the contracting business in the south together.
we
Q.
Do you mean lumber contracting?
A. Logging and band mill operations. l!'rom that I took a banB mill operation by
contract to log, mill, railroad it, log the logs to the railroad, load them on
the oars, saw them and put them. on sticks tor twenty dollars a thousand, and
did the work far $9.16, which is the low record of hard wood operation cost tor
band mill operation and mountain operation. Other times I have been engaged
in having charge of other companies operations, notably the past seven years
I have been general manager of the Meadowtield Lumber Company and the North
Carolina and Virginia Railroad Company, which is just a band mill logging operation. Prior to that I was superintendent of woods for the largest hard
wood operation east ot the Missiasippi .Biver, possibly in the United States;
had five band mills. They consumed eighty-five carloads of logs a day.
Q..
I particularly desire to know your experience in cruising and estimating the
number of board feet in standing timber.
A. To make a specific statement of the am::>unt of that would cover quite a lot.
As a logging contractor you cruise and estimate every foot of lumber, and our
family has had thirty or forty years of contracting that has covered Pennsylvanit., North Caroline., Tennessee and part of' Virginia.
Q.
Did you cruise the timber on the tract known as the J"ohn A. Alexander tract,
now under consideration here?
A. I did.
Q.
State how and when.
A. I cruised it by zones. I never divided my estimates in portions ot over one
day as I like to record my day's impressions no later than that evening. I
record them as I go out of the hollow if it is possible to do so.
Q.
Will you give the dates of your 1'1 eld work on the Alexander tract?
.A.. Yes sir.
BY MR. TAVENER: Object to any testimony from this witness in regard to the values
of timber on the ground that the Witness has not been qualified as an expert,either
as to cruising or as to values. The mere tact that his temily owned thousands of
acres of timber land or timber rights over Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Tennessee,
Virginia and West Virginia does not, of itselt, qualify him as .a cruising expert.
The witness has not stated that he has pereonally cruised.
Q.
l!'or the sake of the record, Mr. Campbell, I will ask you whether or not you
have cruised timber lands, and, if so, to what extent you yourself' have cruised
timber lands for the purpose ot ascertaining the stand of timber, the species
and the value?
A. I believe the gentlemen did not understand me when I stated that I had been
cruising more or less for the past :Corty years, and to give a description of
each one particular item would overload the record, but I can give it to you.
Q.
I do not Wish you to encumber the record with a statement in detail, but I will
ask you to state generally over how long a period your experience covers as a
-3&-
711:,
�timber cruiser, and in wbat loce.li ties?
A. My first speci:f'ic experienc e as a cruiser was :f'or the United States Leather
Company in 1901 on Tim Gray's Bun :f'or the United States Leather Company, who
are large tanners. If' I am not mistaken, there was sixteen thousand acres in
that tract.
Q,.
I understan d that you cruised the whole tract?
A. Yes, we cruised the tract, my :f'ather and I together. He was with me, and we
not only cruised it, but we laid it ott in tracte, cut it up in sub-divis ions
Do
and set the price, and the property we.a handled trom the figures that we established . That we.a customary :f'or us to do that, but that was the first time I
was called tram Potter County to do that work.
Q.
I Will ask you whether or not your duties in connectio n with the other lumber
operation s which you have heretofor e stated you were connected with, required
you to cruise and estimate the stand and value of' the timber, and whether or
not you did cruise and estimate the value and stand of such timber?
A. After the 1901 incident, the next property that we personall y cruised was
sixty thousand acres in North Carolina :f'or William Whitmer, at Mt. Sterling,
North Carolina, in l9ll. The next tract was the one in Tennessee , six or
eight thousand •cres, I just don't remE111ber exactly. The next tract in Forneys
Creek, North Carolina, sixteen thousand acres. The next tract was at Roseman,
North Carolina, twenty thousand acres, and, by the way, I passed one, another
one in 1911, twenty-two thousand acres in Mitchell County, North Carolina.
The next was sixty-eig ht thousand acres ih the Vanderbi lt F.state. The next
was two hundred fifty thousand acres in the Vanderbi lt Estate, which virtually
comprised the sixty-eig ht thousand acres, that is, included the sixty-eig ht
thousand. The nm was the ~ellacoe River property of about eight thousand
acres in Tennessee ; the next was the Jellicoe property of Kentucky River Lumber
Company, at Jellicoe, Tennessee ; the next was twenty thousand acres for -- I
can't think of the name -- it was in Kentucky and was half ot a :forty thousand
acre tract that the Hydelburg Lumber Company is on the other side ot. I cl'lliaed the twenty thousand acres and put the value on it.
Q..
It is not m:, purpose to require you to give trom recollect ion each and every
tract that you have cruised timber upon. I have no objection to your stating
thElll -A. I might get closer to home then and terminate it, but coming to the State
of Virginia, I cruised and appraised ten thousand acres in Patrick Oounty,V irginia and Buttalo Mountain, six thousand acres; that was for the Meadowtield
Lumber Company at Mount Ariel, North Carolina, and about ten years ago I cruised and appraised this Ward-Rue tract up here that is in litigatio n at the
present time, for the West Virginia Timber Company.
Q,.
A.re you reteITing to the propertie s ot the Ward•Rue Lumber Company in Madison
and Green Counties, Virginia?
A. Yes sir. I might add that they wanted me to go to New Mexico to cruise a
billion feet, and I agreed to do it, but became engaged at that time and my
wite wouldn't let me go. I was to operate the tract on a sliding ace.le, and
it would have been the largest operating contract that had ever been given in
the world. I already did have the largest operating contract that has ever
been given in the world.
Q,.
I ·will ask you the dates on which you cruised the timber on the Alexander tract?
�BY MR. WHITE: I notice the witness has to refer to his book. I would like to
know Whether, before he refers to his memorandum, whether he has an independe nt
knowledge of the tacts called tor. Otherwise , we will be compelled to object to
his using his memorandum.
Yes sir, I can give you an independe nt one, it you wish. I might
misa it a little, but I can.
By the witnesa:
Direct examinati on continued :
Q. Do you remanber the dates on which you did the field work ·of cruising the
Alexander tract?
A. I think I do. I started on August 24th in the field.
Q.
Q.
A. 1931. I cruise.d that week; the next week we had
what year?
a rainy day, I think it was Tuesday, and didn't cruise on SUnday; the next
week I cruised all week and SUnday, and I cruised, I think, Monday and Tuesday
and Wednesday after that following SUnday, making a to;tal of sixteen actual
cruising days on the property, I think.
Ot
you have a book memorandum showing the days on which you were doing the
work you just testified about?
Do
A. I do.
Q.
Will you please refer to the book and see how that book compares with your
recollect ion.
A. The book shows that I cruised on August 24,25,26, 27,28,29, September l, 2;
September 3 it was raining; September 4,5,6,7,8 ,9,10 and 11. I just casually
ran through this book here and I counted sixteen days I had actually wi>rked; I
may possibly have made an error.
Q.
I want to ask a question that I omitted to ask heretofor e; state whether or
Q.
Were the lands which you cruised over in Patrick County, Virginia and adjoining county or counties, in the Blue Ridge Mountain area, or not?
A. Yes, immediate ly on this same mountain chain.
Q..
Did you have occasion to make estimates of the land values, exclusive of the
timber values there, or not?
A. Oh, yes.
Q.
At the time you made the cruise ot the timber on the Alexander tract, did you
have before you a statement of the amount of timber found on there by any other
cruiser?
A. No air.
not, in any cruising operation s you have testified to as having been done by
yourself, you were called upon to estimate the value of the landa exclusive
·
of timber.
where
y
U As a rule that entered into a good many propositi ons, especiall
they were consideri ng buying the property. If it was an operating cruise tar
myself, then the value of the land would not enter into the matter, although
in the Kentucky property I did, and we were making sane arrangeme nts whereby
I was going to buy the land from them aa a logging propositi on.
..30719
�Q.
Did you have a atatement of the value of the timber that had been tixed on there
by anyone else?
A. No sir, and 11' anyone had ottered to give it to me, I would have re:f'Used it.
Q.
Now, Mr. Campbell, I hand you a statanent, in type, signed by you, purporting to
be a statement of the quantity and species of timber found upon the John A. Al.e:xander tract in Bockingham County and Augusta County respectively, and I will ask
you whether or not this table is your estimate of the quantity and species ot
timber you found by your cruise ot this property, and 11' this is the quantity and
species of timber found by you on the .Alexander tract in the two counties, state
to whom you made such a report, tor whom you did the field work, tor whom you made
the itemized statement and to whom you delivered the itemized statement?
A. This paper that you have handed me is my detailed sub-divided report of the
various species of timber in each section of the John A• .Alexander tract that I
cruised tor the State Conservation and Development Department of Virginia.
Q.
State what amount of timber ot all kinds, in detail, you tound on this tract, giving the quantities in Rockingham County end Augusta County respectively-.
A. I found the total cruise of the timber in Rockingham County to be one million
nine hundrea sixty-eight thousand tour hundred feet, and the total cruise in
.Augusta County to be two hundrea. and ten thousand feet, or a total cruise ot both
counties amounts to Two Million, one hundred seventy-eight thousand four hundred
feet.
Q.
Will you file that paper with the stenographer and request that it be marked Exhibit No. l with your testimony?
A. I will.
Q.
What instructions, if any, were given you as to what to include in your report ot
timber, and who gave you such instructions?
A. Mr. s. H. Marsh, Supervisor of the Shenandoah National Park, llhich is under the
State Oonaission on Conservation and Development, personally instructed me to cruise
and appraise the John A • .Alexander tract, omitting two pieces ot land that had no
timber on in Albemarle County, I believe, and told me not to appraise it as of today, but as ot any time in the paat five years, and to give it a fair and square
conscientious valuation as between man and man, irrespective of the fact that I waa
working tor him, which I consider to be the whitest and most generous instructions
that I have ever heard from anyone on a measure ot that kind, and I made my
appraisal accordingly.
BYMR. T.AVENER: Answer objected to -BY MR. Amm!'RONG:
I will admit that what the witness stated as to what he felt as to
Mr. Marsh's directions were not admissable as evidence, and may be stricken from the
record.
BY MR. TAVENER: Further objection to the statement of the witness on the ground that it
is pure hearsay, self serving hearsay on the part of the party in litigation, and that
the answer should be stricken out.
BY MR. WHITE: These objections are made on behalf of the fee simple owner and all claimants save Wallace c. Saunders, the said Wallace c. Saunders, as heretofore stated, taking no part in these proceedings.
Q.
I hand you herewith a statement in detail, signed by you, purporting to be a statement in detail of the board teat of timber found in the various sections ot the
-39Tl'\
�Alexander tract and a value per thousand :feet assigned to such timber, together
w1 th a total or the feet and a total or the values, and I will ask you whether or
not this is your statement, whether you ~ade it up and whether it represents your
estimate ot the quantity and value of such timber?
BY MR. TAVENER: Objection is made to testimony by this witness ot values or lumber on
the stump, because he has not been qualified as an expert on that.
A. Yes, this is
my
statement; I made it up, types it and signed it and gave it to
Mr. Marsh.
Q.
Will you state the totals or the board feet and the totals of the values as shown
by that statement in :Rockingham County end August County respectively? ·
A. My report shows that there are 1,968,000 feet of' tlmber in Rockingham County,
with a stumpage valuation of $4,822.60; and in Augusta County 210,000 feet, with
a stumpage value of' $420.00, or a total valuation or stumpage on the John A. Alexw
ander tract in the two counties ot $5,242.60.
Q.
State whether or not the various estimates of stumpage value per thousand feet on
the various sections of the tract are the estimates that you personally placed upon such timber, or not?
A. They are, and the vary according to the conditions and the quality of' the timber. Some are as low as ·two dollars and some is as high as five. Five dollars is the
highest known valuation ot wild land timber that I have heard of in all my experience.
Q.
I will ask you to tile that statement and ask the stenographer to mark it Exhibit
No. 2 with your testimony.
A. I will file it.
Q,.
I hand you herew1.th a statement signed by you, which appears to be a summary of'
classified timber, showing how much virgin timber, how much cut over timber and
how much second growth timber, and ask you whether or not this is a statement made
by you, and if this statement was made by you, what did you do w1 th it?
A. In answeriDg that question, may I explain to the Court why I made that form ot
statanent, as otherwise it would be meaningless. This is my statanent; I made it,
compiled the field data tor it and turned it in to Mr. Marsh, and I presume that
no one here has ever seen a statement of this kind. I have not taken the timber
trom. a basis ot the name ot the timber, as to whether it is poplar or oak, but
timber boundaries from the wild land standpoint, or in various classes. There is
virgin timber land, there is cut over timber land and there is second gronh timber
land, and this tract ·is of such a nature that it this was not forcibly brought to
the attention of the Court, they would be apt to think that the Alexander tract was
a genuine tract of timber, but, I em sony to say that it is not. I would far rather have went in there and found millions ot feet, as I did expect to find, but I
was so disappointed and surprised that I decided I had better make a sheet to show
the kind ot timber. No tract of timber is c onsi dared a commercial operative bandmill proposition unless it contains three thousand feet to the acre; three thousand
teet is the smallest amount it should have on it. If the John A. Alexander tract
was a commercial bandmill proposition, which its size indicates - twenty-two thousand acres, it should have at least sixty-six million feet on it, or it would be well
to have a hundred and ten million, five thousand feet to the acre, as many tracts in
the country do have. It has to measure between the sixty-six million and the hunctred
million to be classified as a timber property, but when it has only two million one
hundred eighty-eight thousand teet, it does not cut in the catagory of the large
-407'2-°
�timber tract, and I have so estimated the timber in the three classes. There is
no genuine virgin operating timber on the tract today; that has been absolutely
illiminatad years ago. There is 776,400 teat ot timber that is the ranains ot
wh~re the good timber was taken out. · tt is cut over timber. Then, there is the
third grade called the second growth timber, which comprises the largest portion ot it, which does not permit property to be considered a timber property
at all. The acreage which comprises timber is only about one-titth or one-sixth
of the property. Three•:tourths ot the property does not have any timber on it
at all, and, therefore, while I regret to say it and to give the evidence, but
this Court is naturally being misled, owing to the tact that this has not been
brought out.
BY MR. TAVENEB:
I object to the witness afguing the case :tor the Commonwealth,
although he may be employed as a witmss by the Commonwealth; I :t!mrther object to
the testimony of the witness that the Court is being misled when the only testimony
which has been given has been given on the part of the Commonwealth. I object particularly to the witness arguing the case and ask that he confine his statements
to tacts.
A.(cont'd.) I therefore file my report in substantiation of what I have just
said, as Exhibit No. 3 with my deposition.
Q.
I hand you herewith a statement signed by you, which bears the caption "Land
Valuation of the John A. Alexander tract o:t 21,600 acres", and which shows or
purports to show the number of acres classed respectively as tillable and grazing, flat woods, cove land, hillside, ridge top, and has a valuation per acre
opposite the entry of the various classes as well as a total valuation o:t the
various classes and an aggregate valuation ot all classes. This stat8I!Bnt
appears to include the land in Rockingham County and in Augusta County respectively, together with a total in both counties. I will ask you whether or not
you prepared this statement and whether ar not you assigned the values appearing on the statement.
BY MR. TAVENER: Objection is mao.e to the introduction ot any testimony by this wit-
nesa in regard to valuations of land, because the witness haa shown from his own
testimony that he cannot be qualified as an expert on land valuations in tlis section ot Virginia, and his experience in Pennsylvania and Tennessee does not qualify
him as an expert on land values on the Mount Vernon tract of real estate.
A. Yes, this is my statement that I personally prepared, established the values
myself, typed the statement ano. turned it in to Mr. Marsh. I prepared this :form
of statement the tirst time in my lite I did such a thing, as I have never been
on a tract ot twenty-two thousand acres that is ot such a pronounced vacancy
you might say, and, in order to show the actual status of the land, it was
necessary to make this :form of a description, which I had never seen done before
and to my surprise ---
BY MR. TAVENER: I object to the witnesses answer, being not responsive to the question and being in argument o:t the government's case and failure to confine himself
to :tacts.
A. (cont'd.}
I :further prepared this form ot report to show the large amount
�ot land that is vacant. In 'Rockingham County, as it virtually comprises the
larger amount ot it, to be exact, the total acreage is nineteen thousand six
hundred twenty-ei ght acres, while there is seven thousand six hundred seventythree acres that don't even have a sprig ot grass on it. There is nine thousand nine hundred seventy acres that is mostly in small jack oak, waist high,
although that includes some tew acres or bottom land, possibly about one thousand acres, but the total or low grade worthless in the nineteen thousand six
hundred twenty-ei ght acres is seventeen thousand six hundred torty-thr ee acres,
which leaves a very small amount ot the timber to go on, and when on top ot the
Blue Ridge mountain ,next the .Albemarle line, looking across the John Alexander
tract - I had field glasses - will not detect any timber ot any consequen ce,as
it is all below the hillside and is so deep in the valley that you cannot see
it, although the Blue Ridge is several hundred teet higher than the other hills,
and I was ot the impressio n that one-half' the .Alexander tract had nothing at
all, but upon ente~ those hollows, I found there was a nominal growth down
deep in the hollows.
Q.
I Will ask you to tile that statement as Exhibit No. 4 with your testimony .
A. I herewith tile the statement as Exhibit No. 4.
Q.
State whether or not you have in your possessio n any me.p showing the location
ot this Alexander land.
A. I had.
Q.
Where did you get that map?
A. Mr. Marsh gave it to me the day he gave me the instructio ns to cruise and
appraise the property.
Q.
I will ask you to produce that map and file it as Exhibit No. 6 w1 th your
testimony .
A. I hereby produce the map and file it as Exhibit No. 5 with my testimony .
Q.
I see on this map a number ot pencil notations . Were these notations made by
you in the course of your work, or not?
A. Yes, all the pencil notations on there were made by me in the field.
Q.
State who, if anyone,accompanied you whilst you were making your field observations.
A. Mr. George A. Roadcap, of Grottoes, Virginia, accompanied me when I was
working around Grottoes, most ot the time; also, Melitus Garrison, of Brown's
Gap, was With us a :tew days, also Andrew Garrison and John Garrison, and on
the Elkton end ot the property, I was accompanied by Elmer Munger.
Q.
Why were you accompanied by these men, if you know?
A. It apparentl y is the custan. here tor the Park of'ricials to send a man along
with the cruiser to aid him in getting through the country convenien •ly, otherwise you would lose more or less time finding the pathways, and so f'orth; and,
turthermo re, it is business prudence to not attempt working in the mountains
alone. It is better to have company, especiall y someone who knows the country,
that they may find the pathways tor you leading to the various places that you
wish to go.
Q.
Where did you find the timber on this Ale:mnder tract, that is, with reference
to the topo~ph y of the country?
A• It laid down in the bottoms, hollows, as a rule; nothing at all on the top
with very little exception .
l-~- ---- ---- ~--- --
-42-
----- -~--- ~~~ -~--- -7U-
�~.
State whether or noti in the course of your examinations, you found any evidence
of timber blight, particularly with reference to pine timber.
A. Yea.
Q.
To what extent?
A. I found that the pine had suffered a blight, as well as the chestnut. It ia
generally known that the chestnut blight swept the chestnut from the country,
and the Alexander tract was no exception, and the bark was already falling ott
the trees that remained, but I wondered why there was not some large pine, and
I round that there was a pine blight forty years ago that swept every living
pine the 88111.e as the chestnut blight las at the present time, although I think:
I found three or tour that I thought must have survived that blight; they seemed to be older than forty years.
BY MR. TAVENER: I object to the witness saying what he heard trom any one else. It
is a matter of hearsay, and should be stricken from the record.
By the witness: That is a matter of history.
Q.
State whether or not you found any evidence of the property, or portions of it,
having been burned over, and it you found any evidence of any portion of it
having been bumed over, wba.t affect had it on the stand of timber?
A. The property has been burned over the worst ot any property I know ot, and
not only burned over once, but, apparently, there has been fire atter tire in
that country until the forest is diminishing in value. In other words, forests
naturally, just like men do, when they reach a certain age they start backwards
as a whole. There may be some second growth, but when deaee.se breaks forth in
a forest, one tree will deaease hundreds around it, and this forest has seen its
maturity, mvat have, years ago, and has become what lumbermen would term "past
maturity", and now, having the fires ravaging it besides, it is depreciating
very rapidly, and I consider the Jop A. Alexander tract today, to be not nearly as good a tract as it was ten years ego.
BY MR. TAVENER: The witness's comparative value of the tract now and ten years ago
is objected to for the reason that he has not shown that he was on this tract ot
land before he was employed in August, 1931, by the petitioner in this case.
By the
witness: One does not have to be on the tract to read the signs of demarkat1on and destruction; a dying tree indicates that it was alive a few years back.
BY MR. TAVENER: Counsel especially calls the attention of the Commission to the
witness's answer made after the objection, which answer shows, we submit, that he
is so biased as to be unqualified to give a fair, honest and sincere valuation in
any respect to th1 s property.
BY MR. A.HASTRONG: Counsel for petitioner, in reply to this objection, states that,
not only is it perfectly proper, but, in addition, it is highly connnendable for the
witness to undertake to state how he arrived at his conclusions as to why this land
and timber is worth less now then ten years ago, when his atat8IIE nt was challenged
on the ground that he had not been actually on the property Within the past ten
years except for the work that he has done in cruising the timber in August and
September, l93l.
Q. Mr. Campbell, I will now ask you what, in your opinion, is the fair, caah,
market value for the portions of the Alexander tract respectively in Augusta
and Rockingham counties, for all purposes for which it is adapted?
�BY MR. TAVENER: Same objection to question and e.nawer thereto, on the grounds ot
the witness not being qualified on lanct values.
A. Shall I go into detail?
Q,.
No sir, just take it and add up the values as you have found them and give the
answer so that it will appear at one place in the record.
A. I have determined, by my inepection of the property, that the land valuation of the Alexander tract in Rockingham County is $27.,626.00, and that the
land valuation in Augusta County is $2462. 50, or a total valuation in the two
counties of $30,089.00. The total valuation ot my findings tor the Alexender
tract, including timber and land is $35,331.60; ot which, Rockingham County is
$32,448.60, and the total valuation for Augusta County for land and timber is
$2,882.30.
Q.
Now then, do I understand, from your answer, that these values which you have
just given, represent, in your opinion, the fair, cash, market value tor the
lands and the timber growing thereon?
A. Yes.
Q,.
They do not include any val.ue for any minerals thereon, if, in fact, there by
any such, do they; anything else other than land and timber?
A. No, nothing but land and timber. Land, in tee simple title is what my :f'igures
are based on.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. 'l'AVENER:
Q,.
You were engaged tor tour years in winding up a North Caroline milling property
before you came here?
A. Yes.
Q,.
What was the name ot that concern?
A. Meadowtield Lumber Company.
Q,.
Where?
Q.
Was it under a receivership?
A. I was eventually made temporary receiver, then it went over to a permanent
receiver, but it was not under a receivership until several years later.
Q,.
You had operated it before it went into a receivership?
A. Yes sir. As a matter ot fact, it never did operate, -- I was in charge of it.
Q,.
In the estimation of the number of board feet on this tract, in what manner
did you make your measurements?
A. May I interject in regards to the receivership. The interence would naturally
be made that I was not a can.patent manager. This fi:rm never had the money to
complete their operations so that it could function. They needed fitty thousand
dollars more. So, I have a mill, a standard gauge railroad, locomotive, railroad
cars and a general all around equipment tor a band mill operation laying there
about two-thirds completed, and owing to the lack ot funds ot the firm who had
A. Mount Ariel, North Carolina.
-4'-
�employed me, I was unable to complete it. It went into a receivership, not due
to any fault ot mine.
Q,.
Down to what size timber do you make your estimation?
A. The practical operating size, which is approxime.tely ten inches.
Q.
At what heighth above the ground?
Q,.
What height above the ground is that?
A. Some you cut high and some low, where it is pre.ctical to cut it ott; sometimes little and sometimes high.
~-
You made no estimate at all of timber there under ten inches; in your value
of timber, as you have outlinid in detail, have you included any item of timber
under ten inches at the stump?
A. No air, because it is not presumed in any kind of timber proposition -- all
timber less than ten inches is not ot a camnercial nature.
Q..
Then you take the position before this Commission that no matter how many
millions or thousands of feet of timber there may be below ten inches, that it
is of no commercial value?
A. You may find a tree now and then, but, the world at large does not accept
timber under ten inches as having a commercial value. When you are taki:cg
millions of feet, it has no value under ten inches.
Q,.
I aek you again to please answer the question I asked you. I em not interested
in what the world may know, I am interested in what you know, as an expert in
this case. Do you assign any value to timber under ten inches?
A. Not on the Alexander tract. There is none there worth giving anything mor e.
It you buy the merchantable timber that you can saw, that gives value to that
that you can't saw.
•
A. Stump height.
BY MR. WHITE: The question involved in this case is not the value of this timber
sold off the tract; the issue involved in this case is the value of the properfor all purposes that it may have value for.
A. There is no other purpose that this property can be ot value tor. I assume,
from your previous questions, that you wish me to state that it has a stave
value, but it has not. Stave mills have got to have thousands of feet at their
conme.nd, and there is not enough there to run a stave factory, that is impracical. I might further add that when I say in buying the virgin timber, which is
the mature timber and the large timber, that it gives value to the lesser
diameters, ten inches and under, I mee.n by that that you have paid for that,and
the man has sold the ten inch with that.
'Y
Q.
Q.
You mean that if I buy timber from a ae.n ten inches and up, that I am therefore
buying the stut:r below ten inches?
.A. No sir, if you were buying ten inches and up, you would be buying that one
grade, you would be picking out the better class, but it you buy all - you
don't want the other because it is of no value - but, if you buy all, then you
consider paying for the other and it is paid for, but you only take off the
better grade of it, but you have bought it all. That is the general practice in
the lumber world, dear triad.
I think you will find, Mr. Campbell, that there are some of us wao have had
lumber experience that you have not had experience in.
A. Oh, I know there are all kinds of small things made out of timber; but this
�is twenty-two thousand acres, but you can go down eight or nine miles baok to
get a load in the mountain - to get a load or small quantity to try to assemble
to a distant point, and that is not commerciall y practical. There is timber
scattered virtually over a wide area ot the twenty-two thousand acres, but it
is so amall that it is hardly practical to operate the small quantity, let
along assembling a large area of it to one location; the cost ot assembling will
not permit. Therefore, there is no possibility ot any small wood manutacturi ng
enterprise making a success on the Alexander tract, let it be staves, spokes,
handles, or whatever it may be.
~.
Now, in judging the amount ot this timber, you used tield glasses to a considerable extent?
A.. Yes.
Q.
So, you estimate acreage and teet ot timber by tield glasses?
A. I use them to assist me. Let me add that tield glasses are a very material
asset to any cruiser, and I know, looking over mountains, you will think, at
times, when you are at the bottom, looking up, or .otherwise, that the timber
is smaller, and by using the glasses, you get the tull benetit of it. I have
had as good eyes as anyone, but experience has told me that, in order to give
the territory :f'ul.l considerati on, it you don't have your glasses to look up the
side of a hill, you will figure the timber is smaller than it is, but with the
glasses, it will give you the tull value ot the timber, which is really to the
benefit of the land peopl~ It aids very :materially too.
Q.
Mr. Campbell, by whom are you employed now?
A. By the State I presume, not presume, I know, but, gentlemen, please don't
misundersta nd me as being biased against this tract. You may have been led to
believe so because ot the tact that it was cama:tlouged to you and money was
loaned on it, because you were made to believe that it has more value than it
has, and the Court naturally assumes, it I don't give this testimony, that
there is value down there in view of the thousands of dollars that have been
loaned on it. It is what the lumber world generally considers a white elephant.
I am not biased against the property. My gracious, I am a better friend ot the
property than you are. You would not do for it what I have done; so you must
not take the attitude that I am biased against the property. I am.only trying
to bring out the true tacts tor your information .
Q,.
Are you through?
Q.
Why did you consider 1t necessary to make that answer because a simple question
was asked you for wh~ you were now working?
A. Because you asked it with an air that because I was working for the government, I had a biased attitude, but I do not. I will not investigate any property without coming out and giving the facts even it it hurts me.
Q.
Then you assume that the Commission and the Court would think that you are a
biased witness because you are now working for the State?
A. Well, you were rather insinuating that by your attitude, or intimating it.
Q.
Did you take my question as intimating that you were biased and unqualified as
a witness, and if so, what part of my question?
A. I think you and your honorable contemporar y have stated that in plain words
a tew minutes ago. I am not taking any personal ottense at this matter, and I
am not ass ming that you are, but 1 t is just an aspect of the case.
A. Yes.
Tllo
�Q.
Are you through?
A. Yes.
ot Rockingham
County as to the values ot any land adjoining the Mount Vernon tract in ascertaining your value of this property?
A. No sir.
Q. Mr. Campbell, did you examine any records of the Circuit Court
Q.
Did you ascertain the values of any of the adjoining land from
thereof'?
A. I may have inquired of valuations from one or two.
Q.
Do you mean to say you inquired of valuations of lands adjoining this property
or inquired of valuations of this land?
A. The party I inquired of I think adjoins the property.
Q.
What value did he put on his land, this party to whom you rater?
A. The party was Mrs. Steer, 01' Grottoes, with whom I boarded; I asked her what
they paid for their tarm; she st.id ten dollars an acre -- it she didn't pay ten
dollars for that, it was generally sold for ten. I think she paid forty tor
her's, but it was generally being sold for ten.
any
of the owners
Q. That was the only intormation you sought and got as to the valuation ot land
itself?
A. That's the only one I recollect, although I may have asked sane others, but
I did not ask them to confirm my general knowledge.
Q. It you did, say so, and if you did not, say so.
A. I may have and I :piay not; who can tell what all is in your conversation.
Q.
Did you make any other inquiry to ascertain the value of land?
A. It wasn't nec~ssary, but it may casually have come up, ana the only one I
know to come up was this one with these people, Steers, because I lived there
w1 th them tor about ten days.
Q.
Is there any question that I could ask you that would illicit from you an
answer that would in any way be tavofable to this tract of land?
A. Why, it you intelligently know the land -- you don't know the land.
Q.
What, in your opinion, is this land, for any purpose, good tor?
BY MR. ARdSTRONG: Objected to as the Witness has answered this question in his
examination in chief, stating in detail what the land was worth and how he arrived at his valuations.
Q. You having stated it I had known
my subject,that there are some things that
you could s.ay in behalf of this tract of land?
A. Yes, there are sane, I presume, but, in order to try to answer your ques•
tion, it you first take Big Run and sell that to some country club some place
who would develope it, it would have made one of the finest hunting, fishing
and game preserves in this country, bit it has got to be developed,o:t' course.'
Q..
How much land in this tract do you consider veey tine tor hunting and fishing
and game preserve?
�BY MR • .ARfflRCNG: Counsel for petitioner here info:rms counsel tor claimants th~t
on this question they make the witness their own, and he shall so contend before
the Board ot Appraisal Commissioners and the Court.
BY Jim. WHITE: The witn&ss is on cross exemination, not only that, he has shown
himself to be biased.
BY MR. AmASI'RONG: Question is objected to on cross eDIDination as not being responsive on any matters brought out in examination in chiet.
Q.
Now, would you mind stating how much of this tract is the best land in the
country for the purposes which you have just stated?
A. It could be made by proper development ---
Q,.
How many acres in this tract is especially valuable for this purpose?
A. There must be forty-tive acres of it in the Big Run section, but, bear in
mind that 1 t would require an enormous amount of money to develope it, and it
is in an undeveloped state at this time.
Q.
I assume that you know values of truit land, don't you?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Then, are you in a position to state whether some of this land is valuable for
fruit growing purposes?
A. Well, I wouldn't say, what 11 ttle I do know of the 1'ru1 t world, there is not
enough soil on the side of the hills tor fruit to grow properly. It is void of
actual ground.
Q. Please state whether you know, or not, if any of this land is valuable tor fruit
growing purposes.
A. There may be one, two or three acres, but there is very little of it. There
are a thousand acres there that are bare, absolutely pure &lean rock standing
out. That rook zone is mostly in the truit zone and the fruit zone is in the
thermal zone, not too high and not too low.
Q,.
Then you are an expert on trui t growing?
A. Well, I don't say I am an expert, but I know something of truit growing.
Q.
Did you examine any ot this property :for the purpose of ascertaining whether it
has any value for fruit growing purposes, did you or did you not?
A. I did not.
I was not sent in there for that specific purpose.
Q.
In view ot the tact that you have stated that. nineteen thousand and some hundred
acres have no value at all and seven thousand acres not a sprig of grass will
grow on, can you state for What purposes this land is being sought?
BY MR. AlM&l'RONG: Question is objected to as the comdemnation proceedings now pending, byvirtue o:f which this hearing and taking of testimony is being had, specitioally states the object of the proceeding and the purposes for which the land is being sought to be condemned.
Q.
You know, do you not, that the State has filed these proceedings for the purpose
ot condemning this land for park purposes?
A. Yes.
Q.
Is this land, rugged and rough as you have described it, especially valuable
-48-
�tor park purposes by any firm, corporation, partnership or association interested in establishing parks?
A. No, not especially valuable,as you say. As a matter ot tact, it surprised me
very much that the Virginia people were able to interest the government in making a park in this zone, and it it had not been for the tact that the caves ot
the country are so tamous, I don't believe they eo1lld have secured a park in the
Shenand~ah Valley, as the mountain zone just south ot the park area is so tar
more attractive, more interesting and more naturally designed tor park purposes,
that they naturally would have selected the zone most adapted tor it.
Q.
Then, knowing as much as you have put in the record, you think the State has
made a mistake in proceeding against tbi s property tor park purposes?
BY MR. ARMSrRONG: Question obj acted to as it calls for an answer upon an entirely
immaterial matter.
A. Well, I can't say that the government is making a mistake, as it wasn't the
government primarily. It started with you local people, and as I view the situation, you are to be congratulated that you had the enthusiasm to induce the
government to buy this section and make a park site ot it.
Q. Then you think that whoever started the park project likewise were camaflouged,
as you think the lienors on the Mount Vernon tract were camaflouged, as stated
by you?
A. No, I don't think it was necessary for them to camaflouge the situation. I
had been in this section ten or twelve years ago, and I learned that there was
a vast amount of vacant land through here, and where there was such a large area
that had lost its camnercial value as a timber property, it was a very wise idea
to develope it tor purposes that might make use ot this mountain zone.
Q.
Q.
Did you not just state that this tract of land had no value for park purposes?
A. No.
Has this land any value for park purposes?
A. If it has any value at all, that would be all the value ot any consequence it
has.
Q.
Has this land any value tor park purposes?
A. Yes, it does, owing to the fact ot its location. It this tract was segregated
trom the park, you wouldn't want it. There is nothing particularly attractive
about it on account of the barren rock that people cannot walk over, but since
it is in the park, then it has some value.
Q. In your estimate ot the value of this property, have you placed any valuation on
it for its value for park purposes?
A. You Will note, by reference to the valuation that I have placed on the land,
what I consider it to be. Irrespective of what it was for, that is a very high
valuation for the entire thing.
Q.
Will you please answer the question?
A. Please repeat the question.
~.
You don't even know what the question is, do you?
A. I consider that valuation as applying tor park or any other purposes that the
governmEll.t may Wish to do with it. I t it was for a lumbering enterprise, the
Taluation would be very materially reduced.
72'j
�Q.
Mr. Campbell, you have tiled tour exhibits in detail, setting out what you f'ound
and the valuations. Is any value, in any one ot these tour statements, placed
on this land tor park purposes, and, it so, please state the statEll!lent and point
out whereon you have placed any value on this land tor park purposes?
A. You misunderstood me in saying that I placed a valuation on it tor park purposes; I said I placed a valuation on it tor the government tor park or whatever
purpose they may want.
Q.
Is there any item on any one of your tour statE111ents,tiled by you, showing any
valuation on this land for park purposes?
A. No sir.
Q.
Did you tind a considerable amount of dead chestnut on this property?
A. There was, in one fork, quite a little of it.
Q.
You treated that as being worthless, according to your statement?
A. It is at present, although I included a large portion of it in the stumpage.
Dead chestnut that will only make extract wood in that location is worthless,
as it w111 cost more to get it to market than you can get tor it.
Q.
You have stated that you made those estimates entirely independent of the other
cruiser's estimates?
A. Yes 9 I am glad you asked me that question. You gentlemen are cognizant of the
tact that the government now has and has had a number of cruisers employed, and
you naturally assume that we all domicile and fraternize with one another, but
Mr. Marsh surrounded me with conditions that prevented me from meeting or coming
in contact w1 th the other cruisers until the work was completed and the reports
tumed in. He assigned me to live at a private house with no other boarders,and
I did not meet another government employee with the exception ot Mr. Marsh and
my field man who accompanied roe, until I had finished my work and turned in my
report, and had no means whatever ot securing any data to assist me or aid me,
and I was very glad of it, as I didnft want it - had no occasion tor the u,e of
it.
Q.
Will you look at your manorandum book and see 11' you were in Big Run on September
sixth?
A. Yes, I was in Big Bun on September sixth.
Q.
Do
you recall writing your name on a rock?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
On that same rock appears the name of J. w. Shitflet and the other Shittlet, do
they not?
A. It did not at the time, but Mr. Shifflet afterward informed me that he had
been to where my name was, and he had wr1 tten his name on it, and, 11' I ram.ember
rightly, there was some other name on it, but it wasn't Jack's.
Q.
Give the names of the two Mr. Shittlets who were cruisers for the government.
A. I am informed and believe, though I have seen neither one cruising, that Jack
Shiffiet is check cruiser tor the government, and I am informed that Will
Shit:t'let has done some cruising tor the government.
Q.
Do
you not recall that it was the names ot yourself, Mr. Will Shitt'let and Mr.
Jack Shifflet that was on that rock, dated September sixth?
A. No, all I recall is that I wrote my name and that Jack told me he had found
the place and wrote his. The reason I wrote mine was because I tound saneone
-50730
�else's and I wrote mine. It is a custom among woodsmen and does not indicate
anything beyond that you have passed that way.
BY MR. WALKER:
~-
Mr. Campbell, in reaching your conclusions as to the value of that mountain
land, did you take into consideration its sale value, that is, considering
local conditions end prospective purchasers ot that character of land?
A. Yes, I did. You gentlemen will hardly believe it, but if the same acreage
was tu.rther down the line, you would consider it nothing, but here I gave it
this value on account of its proximity to the park.
Q.
Did you give it this value on its sale value to people -- to that class of
people who buy land up on the mountain and make their homes there?
A. Absolutely not.
Q.
You were not a prospective purchaser of a home up there?
A. No sir, although I have lived about halt my life in those conditions.
Q,.
If that class ot people who buy small homes there in the mountains are willing
to pay a good price tor those homes, that creates a sale value in that particular
locality?
A. I didn't interview anyone living in the mountains -- didn't need to, as I
have been in the mountains forty years myself.
Q,. Then, it you did not need to interview any of the mountain people who live in
that section and have homes in that section, then you know nothing whatever as
to its sale price?
A. Yes I do, absolutely.
Q. Please tell me how?
A. I can show you a hundred and forty options taken on just such mountain land
as that, that I took only two years ago, and right on the Blue Ridge just a tew
miles south.
Q.
I am not asking about options taken on any mountains; I am asking you, and you
are telling me that you didn't interview those mountain people and have not
taken into consideration the sale price of those mountain ilands locally.
A. I did, but in so doing I didn't need to interview those tolks living there.
Q,.
Then, it you did not think it necessary to understand local conditions, the
habits of the local people, the types of homes they had, where they decided to
live and what they were willing to pay, how can you arrive at any sale value
of those properties?
A. I already knew it before I came there. Values do not nuctuate within.a tew
miles, and I had emmined the same zone just north of it.
Q. And to have all that information before you came there, what prophetic vision
you have.
A. My dear sir, the Blue Ridge mountains do not change ot any consequence trom
north to south.
Q.
Did you meet many of the Shitfleta?
A. No, not until after my work was done.
Q,.
Did you ofter any of them two dollars an acre for their land and get out of
there alive?
131
�A. No air, I attempte d to negotia te with no one tor the lend.
Q,.
Then the only local people that you intervie wed w1 th referenc e to the sale value
was Mra. Steer, who keeps a boarding house down in Grottoe s and who came f'rom
the North end has been here only about ten years?
A. Yea.
BY MR. LEVI:
It a man cruised a million teet, how close do they cut out?
A. They cut out pretty close,e.s a rule.
By the witness: Permit me to state to Mr. Walker that, in regards to getting valuations
f'rom the local land own.era, that it is impossi ble to get any informa tion
that would pertain to the valuatio n of' a large acreage , as they are wholly untamilia r with that, and their smell farms that are in a state of' cultiva tion
bear little relation to the large wild timber land, and my judgment has been
based on the sale of' other propert ies along this particu lar line.
BY MR. WALKER:
A. Then, do I understa nd trom your explana tion, that a large area, around
twenty thousand acres, which the government is to secure tor park purpose s, ia
of' less value than land containi ng a small acreage in oultivat ioh?
A. Yes, 1 t is ot less value per acre. The small tarm Will have more value per
acre than the same number of' acres will have in the wild land.
Q,.
But, in view of' the tact that the government is acquirin g a large area tor park
purpose s, which is necessa ry f'or park purpose s, does not that increase the
value of' that area tor park purpose s?
A. Possibl y it would, and I gave it that conside ration, in a sense, in placing
the valuatio n on it. As I said, if' I had not taken that into conside ration, I
would not have given it the valuatio n I did.
Q,.
Assuming, Mr. Campbell, that the Shenandoah Nationa l Park would strike its
southern boundary at the Spottswood Trail, and not go turther south, would not
this large area of' land, it not taken into the park, be of' conside rably more
value by reason of i ta proximi ty to the park?
BY MR. AIMSI'ltONG: Question objected to because the value of the land must be ascertained as of the time of' the taking, without regard to future developmente.
A. Only portions of it would be; such portions as might happen to interes t
some people who would like to live or be near the Shenandoah Nationa l Park,
but, in the history or the land business that I have had, and they give me
credit or knowing more ot wili land east of the Mississ ippi R1ver th4ll any
one else, I don't believe you Will be able to sell that land to anyone as
a whole if it is not sold to the government; yet, portion s or 1 t me¥ sell,
like you might sell a portion to some club. So, as a matter of fact, as a
whole, you don't enhance in value by the park.
Q.
You have given that answer tran a theoret ical standpo int, and not trom any
practic al understa nding of the Mount Vernon tract?
A. Yes, it is. I don't think you have anyone that has been connecte d with
the Mount Vernon tract that has it analyzed as well as I have.
Q.
Would your same conclus ion hold good for the past five years as it Will for the
tuture with referenc e to securing a purchas er?
A. Mr. Alexand er tried to sell that tract to me a number or years ago.
Q.
Do you recall what the price was?
A. No, I don't remember - He spoke of a tract, and it correspo nded very much
•52•
�to this.
Q. Then you would be surprised to learn that there was a purchaser tor that property at seventy-ti ve thouaand dollars Within
the past
A. Well, not to contradict what you say, but no
man
ti ve years?
who knows what he is doing,
would pay that in the past twenty years even.
BY MR. WHITE:
Q. Mr. Cempbell, the options you spoke ot tor land in the Blue Ridge Mountains -have you those options?
A. I have them in my ettects at Elkton.
Q.
Would you submit those options to the counsel?
A. I would be glad to.
Q.
When Will you do that?
A. By the way, I think I have them there.
Q,.
It you haven't got them. who 11>uld have them?
A. They are in my ettecta someplace. I have just had a moving, and I have
twelve hundred pounds ot baggage scattered around.
Q.
Will you please ascertain it you have those options at Elkton, and notity Mr.
Tavener 11" you can tind them, or not?
A. Yea.
Q.
You stated in your answers "I can show you a hundred and forty options taken
on just such mountain land as that that I took only two years ago on the Blue
Ridge just a tew miles south." Will you please state in whose possession
those options are?
A. They are in my possession, in my ettects somewhere.
Q.
Q.
Will you please examine your e:ttects and notity Mr. Frank s. Tavener, :rr.,
whether you have been able to find thoae options?
A. It will be impossible to examine all my effects as some are in Clarksburg, West Virginia and some are in North Carolina. I preewne they are
among those boxed up materials, as I have with me only such equipment and
clothes as I need tor this 110rk here.
Please state in which box in which state those options are, in your ettects.
A. Well now, I couldn't tell you which box it is in as there are several
boxes filled With clothing, papers and books, but if there is any intormation
you Wish to have which I can give you mentally, I will.
Q. Are those options in Virginia, North Carolina, West Virginia or Mississippi ?
A. I coulidn't tell you.
Q.
In what year did you get those optiona?
A. In the neighborhoo d of two years ago.
Q.
From whom did you get them?
A. I took them for the Meadowtield Lumber Company at the. instigation ot a
prospective buyer.
------ ------ ---~- ------ ------ -----~ --~-- -~-- J~
�Q.
In what county was the land situated on which you secured options?
A. Mostly in Patrick County.
Q.
How far is Patrick County from this tract of land?
A. It is the most southermost county on the line adjoining North Carolina.
Q.
Do you know how many miles?
A. No, I don't.
Q.
Will you please examine your effects that you have in this state and see it
you can locate those options?
A. I will be glad to do so.
Q.
Will you please report to Mr. Franks. Tavener, Jr., whether or not you have
tound them?
A. I Will. It will be a pleasure for me to show you those options, but I
would not care to make them a part of the record, as they are ot value to
me yet .
BY MR. A!NSTRONG:
.
Q.
,
Mr. Campbell, the record shows that, in your testimony about those options,
in answer to a question by opposing counsel, you stated that you took options on properties just a tew miles distant, or w1 thin a short distance
of this Alexander tract. It now appears that you were referring to options
on land in Patrick County, Virginia, which county is several hundred miles
from the lands of the Alexana.er tract. Now, were you referring to the sane
options, and, if so, what explanation have you to make as to your first
statement?
A. In using the words "a tew miles", I did not consider that the distance
from here to Patrick County was so great, and possibly did speak ot it in
e. light manner, as if' it was closer than it actually is, but us lumbermen
have gotten in the habit of doing so, but I live in Murphy, Georgia,to up
in Pennsylvani a, and we do not consider a hundred or so miles a great distance.
BY MR. WHITE:
Q.
Mr. Campbell, you know that the object of' your testimony is to enlighten
the Canmission and the Court on what would be a tair value of' the property?
A. Yes.
Q.
Why did you make the mistake of saying that you had taken options on land
w1 thin a tew miles of' this property, whEll you had in mind and knew that the
Commission is trying to ascertain from testimony g1 ven in this case what is
a fair value of the property?
A. I don't consider that it is a mistake.
Q.
You don't consider that the difterence between a tew miles and a hundred
and fifty miles is a mistake?
A. No, I don't. I consider anything in the same state on the same range ot
mountains is virtually in the same locality in the lumber world.
-54?3'1
�BY MB. WALKER:
Q.
Mr. Campbell, you have spoken ot conditions being the same, and that is what
I was talking about with reterence to the sale value ot the land. Don• t you
know that this land in Patrick County is trom titty to seventy-five miles
trom the 1'81lroad, whereas the land on the Mount Vernon tract is only sane
tew miles?
A. Yes, and yet that land in Patrick County is worth more than this.
!!Q!:!: It is agreed by counsel for the petitioner and counsel tor claimants that
the buildings on the land under consideration are worth eight hundred and titty
dollar•, and that no testimony need be taken tor or against this agreed value.
And turther this deponent saith not.
MR. OSCAR o. WITT, a witness ot lawful age, being duly sworn, deposes and says
as tollowa:
Q.
Will you state your name and age, please?
A. Oscar ' O• Witt; torty-aix years old.
Q.
Mr. W1 tt, what is your present occupation or business?
A. My present occupation is cruising timber and valuing land
Shenandoah National Park.
Q.
tor t~e proposed
·
Are you anployed by the state Commission on Conservation and Development ot
the State ot Virginia?
J.. Yes.
Q. How long have you been in the employe ot the State Commission on ConseI"'l'ation
and Development ot the State of Vi l'giniaf and engaged in the work of cruising
timber and valuing lands tor the Shenandoah National Park?
A. Since December tirst, 1930.
tor the State Commission on Conservation
and Development, what has been your education and experience in the matter ot
judging or cruising timber and estimating stands of timber and estimating values of timbered lands?
A. Well, my experience has been greater than my education. I started in March
15th, 1924, with the Cherokee Kational Forest, with headquarters at Athens,
Tennessee, and I worked with them up until April, 1928. At that time, I went
with the Smokey Mountain Park Conmission and worked with them until the 15th
ot August, the same year; then I went back with the Forest Service and have
been with them since that time up until I started with the Park.
Q..
Mr. Witt, prior to your beginning work
Q.
Did your ark, during the time testified to by you and at the places where you
worked, require the valuation ot lands as well as timber?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
And you did '9'8.l.ue lands as well as timber?
A. Yea.
135
�Q. You did this work for the State of North Carolina in the matter ot the acquisition of lands in North Carolina tor the Smokey Mountain National Park?
A. l!'or the State of Tenneelee.
Q.
Oh, tor the State ot Tennessee?
Q,.
What counties in Virginia have you worked in for the Virginia Commission?
A. In Bockinghem, Madison, Green and Albemarle, I believe.
Q.
Have you worked upon the Alexander tract now under consideration here?
A. Yes air, on a small part of it.
A. Yea.
Q. State which portions of the Alexander tract you went over.
A. I worked the entire watershed of the lower Lewis lhln, and part, possibly
halt or a little more, of upper Lewis Run, and helped work the other halt. I
have been over both watersheds.
Q.
You made estimates and reports on those estimates to Mr. Marsh, Park Director,
on which portions?
A. The parts that I just mentioned, lower Lewis Run and part of upper Lewis
Bun.
Q.
How did you cruise the parts that you did cruise?
A. By the strip method.
Q.
You heard Mr. Smith testify as to the strip method?
A. Yea.
Q.
And that is the same method that you used?
A. Yea.
Q.
Will you tell the Commissioners the quantity of merchantable timber growing
or standing upon the portions that you cruised, and, if you cannot state this
from recollection, if you have a memorandum in your possession which you made
at the time, you may reter to that memorandum tor the purpose ot refreshing
your recollection.
A. On lower Lewis Run I found two hundred sixty-one thousand feet; Smith's
estimate and mine canbined on upper Lewis Run was two hundred nineteen feet.
Q.
Did you consider in that estimate ot growing timber anything under ten inches
across the stump, breast high?
A. No sir, I did not.
Q.
Did you classify the land over which you traversed with regard to slope land,
ridge land, cove land, burned over and not burned over?
A. Yes.
Q.
And did you make a memorandum ot that; did you put that in the form ot tield
notes?
A. I did, but I don't have that memorandum with me. I put it on the map trom
the notes.
Q.
What memorandum or notation, if any, have you on the manorandum which I notice
in your posaeaaion, showing anythiDS with regard to such classification?
A. On these little map sheets, I have the topography and the type ot lands and
each type labeled.
Q. That does not show the acreage?
A. No.
�But that comprises the lands on which you estimated the timber?
Q.
A. Yes.
And you tumed that in to the park office tor the purpose ot making up the
data map covering the whole area?
A. Yes sir.
And turther this deponent aai th not.
MR. w. H. STONEBURNER, a witness ot lawtul age, being duly sworn, deposes and says
as follows:
Q,. Mr. Stoneburner, Will you state your name and age, please air?
A. W. H. Stoneburner; torty-six.
Q,.
What is your present occupation, and how long have you been engaged in the saJm?
A. I have been employed by the State Commission on Conservation and Development
tor approximately n. ve years; the last year and a halt being w1 th the Shenandoah Park division ot that Commission.
Q.
What have been your duties since you have been assigned to serving in the matter
ot the acquisition ot the Shenandoah National Park area?
,
A. To assist with the examination and valuation ot lands in the area.
Q.
Now, Mr. Stoneburner, what experience have you had, before beginning work in this
Shenandoah National Park area, in the matter ot examining lands, cruising timber,
valuing timber, and so on?
A. · :rrom 1913 to 1926 I was an employee ot the United states Forest Service in
various capacities in the •cquisition and administration ot forest lands in
Virginia, West Virginia and Tennessee.
Q.
What portions ot Virginia did you cover under that employment?
A. The entire Shenandoah National Forest, extending tran Strasburg •o Goshen
and three counties in southwest V11'8in1a.
~.
State brietly, in a general way, what were your duties in connection with that
section of the National Forest in Virginia, I believe it is called the Shenandoah National. Forest, is it?
A. Part of the time I was engaged in the examination ot lands tor purchase, and
the rest of the time in the administration of lands, atter they had been purchased.
Q,.
I understand that you made an inspection of the lands and a cruise ot the
timber on the lands for the purpose ot ascertaining the value that the government would be Willing to buy them at?
A. Yes sir.
Do
�Q.
Were those areas in which you made inspec tions of land and classif ication thereof and timber cruises , simila r and comparable to the lands ot John A. Alexan
der,
now under consid eration here, or not?
A. Some ot them were, very simila r.
Q. Have you person ally been over the Alexan der tract?
A. I have seen about three-t ourtha ot it.
~.
Q.
Were your visits tor the purpose ot examining the land tor soil classif ication
or not?
A. Some tor that purpos e, and some while I was engaged under the State
Forest
Servic e.
Do you know if tire ever swept over this Alexan der tract?
A. Not over the entire tract at any one time, but conaid erable portion a ot it
were burned over it while I was working under the State Forest er.
Q,.
You helped to :tight it? .
A. Yes.
Q.
On severa l occasio ns?
A.. Yes.
Q.
In recent yean?
A. Since 1926.
Q.
Look on the manorandum which I hand you, which purpor ts to be a memorandum showing the diTisio n of the lands ot the Alexan der tract into types; it also
opposi te the number ot acres shown to belong to each type a valuati on perhas
acre.
State, trom your knowledge ot this particu lar tract gained from person al examin
ation and trom your knowledge ot simila r types ot land which you have testifi ed
you have examined in simila r locali ties, aa to whethe r or not the values given
are fair market values tor such types of land in this neighborhood?
BY MR. WHITE: The questio n and any answer thereto are objecte d to; first, tor
reason that the Witness has already stated that he has not been over all the the
second , tor the reason that this witnes s should place his own valuati ons upontract;
the
land rather than conti:rm the valuati ons. of some other person .
BY MR. ABMSl'RONG: In deteren ce to the excepti on, I Will ask, state what, in
your
opinion , is a tair valuati on of the dittere nt types of land on this tract.
BY MR. WHITE: The cpestio n and any answer thereto e.re objecte d to tor the reason
stated , that the witnes s has not been over the entire tract; turthe r, tor the
reason that the witnes s has not qualifi ed as an expert as to the value of this
land tor all purpos es tor which 1t m~ be used. Hie testimo ny showa that he
is
only qualifi ed trom the standp oint of a foreste r and cruise r.
BY MR. A.1U9l'RONG: Refer to the memorandum I have handed you tor your conven
ience
in testify ing, if necessa ry.
BY MR. \'HITE: The witnes s was asked the questio n to state what, in hia opinion
the valuat ion ot the land. It is improp er for him to refer to the valuati on ,was
thereon by some other person , aa his indepen dent valuati on will necess arillyplaced
be intluence d by the valuati on stated in the memorandum prepare d by sane other person
,
which persai we do not know and the evidenc e does not disclos e ia canpet ent
to have
put the valuati ons in the statem ent contain ed.
13
�Q.
Influenced, competent or incompetent, please answer the question.
A. Independent ot any merohantable timber on the Alexander tract, I consider
a large portion of it without value, approximately one-third ot it without
value, approximately one-third ot it worth titty cents an acre, and approximately one-third of it with a value of a dollar and a halt an acre.
Q.
How would that be influenced or affected as to cove type, slope type or ridge
type, burned or wiburned?
A. The one-third that I consider ot no value is the portion severely burned,
without regard to cruisers' :tigurea; the other third is an area that has not
been so severely burned in recent years, and the other third is what is claHed as cove type and some of the better slope type, burned over perhaps within
the last ten years, but not so severely as to kill young timber more than four
inches in diameter, breast high •
Q.
You have stated that, in the course of the discharge of your duties in connection with the acquisition ot the Shenandoah National Forest, you had placed
prices upon lands. State whether or not you know whether the government later
acquired, by purchase, those lands at the prices you placed on them.
A. At the prices I recODll;D.ended, yes sir.
•
Q. Explain.
A. The procedure in the purchase of land for the Federal Government tor forestry purposes is that the tracts are approved for purchase by the National Park
Conservation Commission at Washington. The employees in the field merely
recODlllend values. The tracts were approved for purchase by this Commission.
Q.
Now, were sallh areas comparable w1 th the area comprised within the Alexander
tract?
A. In many respects.
Q.
Compare prices for the Shenandoah Forest lands referred to, with prices shown
on the sheet I have just mentioned to you tor the Alexander lands.
BY MR. WHITE:
We object to the question end any answer thereto for tha reason
that the witness has not stated what prices he recommended to buy1he land at.
BY MR. ARBI'RONG: That is true, but the q11estion I have asked him will compel him
to state what such prices were when I call far a comparison.
A. I can only remember the scale ot pr.Lees tor the ditterent types ot land. I
can't recall any particliar tract.
BY MR. WHITE; The witness having stated he does not recall at what price he
recommended to the government and at what pr.Loe the government purchased it, we
object to the question and answer, and for the :further reason that the deeds and
contracts would be the best evidence.
And turther this deponent saith not.
NOO'E (By Mr. .Armstrong) : Counsel for petitioner here produces memorandum and tally
sheets of the witness, Smith, who testified on yesterday, and asks that the smne
be filed and marked Exb.1 bit X with the testimony ot Mr. Sm1 th•
..5913"1
�.. .
.• •
.
.•
.
.•
STATE COMMISSION ON CONSERVATION
A.ND DEVELOPMENT
v.
CASS.ANDRA,LAWSON,ATKINS, and Others
and 52,561 acres, more or less, of
land in Rockingham County, Virginia,
Defendants.
• •• 000 •••
..
.
•
Hearing resumed pursuant to adjournment •
.
PRESENT: Members or the Boe.rd of Appraisal
Members of the Board o~ Appraisal
Weaver and Amstrong, counsel for
F. S. Tavener, Jr., and George E.
Commissioners of Rockingham County,
Commisaioners of Albemarle County,
petitioner,
Walker, counsel tor claimants.
MR. STONEBURNER resumes testimony as follows:
Q.
Mr. Stoneburner, what familiarity have you with the value or price of moun-
tain le.nds in Virginia within a radius of twenty to forty miles of the .Alex-
ander tract now under consideration?
A. I am familiar with most ot the l8Ild acquired by the Federal Government in
Augusta, Bockingham, Shenandoah and Page Counties and sane in Nelson County
and Warren County.
Q..
Is that what is known as the Shenandoah National Forest?
A. That and the Natural Bridge National Forest.
Q.
Shehandoe.h National Forest and Natural Bridge National Forest?
A. Yea.
~.
Have you information yourself, or do you have any personal knowledge of
eel.ea of tracts of land w1 thin the Blue Ridge Mountains or Massanutten
Mountains in Rockingham or Shenandoah Counties, of lands similar to the
tract under consideration?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Now, will you tell the Board, in your own way, the names of these tracts
and the prices tor which they were sold and when they were sold, and compare the tracts that you refer to with the tracts now under consideration
as to elements making up values.
A. The largest tract is a tract of approximately fifteen thousand acres,
which was sold in 1915, or a deed recorded in 1915, for $1.25 per acre.That
tract was very similar to the .Alexander tract, both as to soil and young
timber, if anything, there was a larger proportion or the area covered with
immature hardwoods than there is on the Alexander tract. It is situated in
Rockingham and Page Counties, extending from the east side to the west side
of the Massanutten range, south ot the Shenandoah County line.
Q.
This was a sale, you say?
Q..
Who sold it and to whom?
A. Yes.
-eo1 o
�A. The Alleghen y Ore and Iron Company sold it to the United States of America.
Q.
That tract, I take it, is in the Shenandoah Nationa l Forest?
A. Yes.
Q.
Name some more tracts.
A. Kauttman and Prince tract of approxim ately 700 acres, lying on both sides of
the Lee Highway near the New Market Ge.p in Page County,. sold by the widow ot Henry
Kauttman and Mrs. Ida Prince for two dollars per acre, to the United States ot
America.
Q.
For the Shenandoah Nationa l Forest?
Q.
Q.
A. Yes.
Give the approximate dates of the · sales you have referred to.
A. The deed of the Alleghen y Ore and Iron Company was recorded in 1915, and the
Kauffman and Prince tracts are to be condemned to secure the title. That was contirmed in 1922.
You mean the report of the camniss ioners fixing the vaiuatio n of them?
A. Yes.
BY COUNSEL: I Will have to admit that that is not proper evidence because it is not
a plain price agreed upon.
A. (cont'd) Yes 1t was. There was a contrac t between the parties . I negotia ted the
sale. I examined the tract and reported on it.
Q,.
Well, it you have in mind any other tracts that you can name and describe ind give
the names of the seller and purchas er and the price, I would be glad if you would
do so.
A. I examined a tract of five hundred acres near Edinburgh on the Massanu tten,
and negotia ted With Mr. E. D. Clark, at $2.50 an acre. That was better timbered
•
than the other .tracts I had examined.
BY MR. TAVENER: That was condenmed also?
A. That was direct purchas e.
•· Didn't that case come up to the Attorney General?
A. I think not. It had been delinque nt tor toes at one time.
Q,.
That was the first case I had; I remember it well -A. It is recorded in Deed Book 91 in Shenandoah County, I have forgotte n the page.
BY MR • .A:INS'l'BONG (Direct Examination continue d)
Q.
From your knowledge ot the tracts that you have just referred to as having been
purchase d by the United States government as compared With the Alexand er tract
under conside ration, how did these tracts compare with the Alexand er tract as to
elements of value, such as timber, such as adaptab ility of land for farming, grazing or any other purpose for which these tracts are reasonab ly adaptab le?
A. All three ot the tracts that I have describe d were essenti ally timber land
tracts; small areas might be farmed, but not tarmed at a profit, in my estimati on.
The slopes in sane instance s were gentle and could be tarmed if the person had to
:t'ann them.
•61741
�Q. Is the character ot the soil ot the Alexander tract and the lay of the land
and the quality ot the timber better or worse than that three tracts you have
mentioned ?
A. The topograph y is very similar; the character ot the timber I would say is
a little sounder in each case, just slightly better quality. The treea have
not been cut over quite so closely. To make it clear, the Allegheny Ore and
Iron Company tract had a considera ble acreage that had been cut close tor
charcoal purposes thirty or forty years before, and were almost fully restocked with stands or hardwood with promise.
Q. Mr. Stoneburn er, it you lmow, will you tell these gentlemen of the Commission
the various values of the types of land placed by the United States Government
in the matter of the acquisiti on of the Shenandoah National. Forest?
A. There is a graduated scale of pricea, or was in use when I was employed
looking over the lands mentioned , ranging from fifty cents to fivedolla rs e.n
acre, according to the soil types. There were tour general soil types, and in
each case there was a variation of about titty cents -- they varied from titty
cents to five dollars tor the best quality ot cove type.
Q.
Did I ask you any questions on your former examinati on as to whether or not
this tract showed signs of ever having been burned over or not?
A. I think you did.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. TAVENl!B:
Q. Mr. Stoneburn er, you stated, I think, in your examinati on a few days ago that
you fixed these prices tor the government on these various tracts of land acquired by the National Forest?
A. That was a part of my duty on certain tracts, not on all that were acquired,
but tor a number of years that was a part of my work, to recommend values to the
Commission in Washington.
Q..
When that price was not satisfact ory to the land owner, he would usually contest the matter in a condemnation proceedin g before the Federal Court at Lynchburg?
A. No, ordinaril ly there was no sale. Those proceedin gs in Lynchburg were to
clear the title to certain parts of the tract.
Q. Did you not frequentl y attempt to buy land at a dollar e.n acre and the owner
would not agree to sell at that?
One owner would always agree. The government would not attempt to buy the
land unless one ot the claimants had agreed to a stipulate d price.
A..
you not recall that the Walter Fravel land on the slope of the Massanutt en
Mountain, east ot Woodstock, was acquired by the government by condemnation
proceedin gs, and that the price that the government tixed on that property
was either a dollar or a dollar and a halt an acre, but that, as a result ot
the condemnation proceedin gs the government was required to pay tour dollars
an acre tor that land?
A. I was a witness in that case and my understan ding was that the government
did not accept the judge's verdict; that is my understan ding. One of the
claimants signed the purchase agreement , Mr. M. H. Hull . He had signed an
agreement ot purchase, and Mr. Fravel contested and it was tried before a
jury, end it was rejected by the government.
~. Do
�Q.
But the jury rendered a verdict of tour dollars an acre for that land?
A. Four or something like that.
Q.
Do you not recall that the government attempted to condenm. real estate owned
by Mr. Cover on the North Mountain, and the jury gave him three dollars an
acre tor that land?
A. I don't remember that oase.
Q,.
In other words, Mr. Stoneburner, the condemnation proceedings is a drawn out,
expensive proceeding for a property owner to go through, particularly the man
Without much means?
A. That has not always been my experience.
Q.
They are tried in Lynchburg, are th~y not, these condemnation proceedings?
A. Usually.
Q,.
That means the taking of Witnesses from their homes to Lynchburg for the t rial
of the oase?
A. Yes, that is t rue wher e t he o ther claimant contests the ti t le.
Q,.
Do you no~ know that the National Forest is at the p:esent time acquiring the
Tampkins and the Munch lands in Powell's Fort, about ten miles east of Woods1Pck at tour dollars an acre?
A. I had understood that that land had been ottered for sale.
Q,.
And that they also contemplate the purchase of the Hoffman lands, adjoining
the Munch lands at tour dollars an acre?
A. I did not know of that.
Q,.
Do you not recall that those lands had been cut over in comparatively recent
years and that the timber on it is just average mediocre timber?
A. As I recell it, the last time I was on the land there was a thrifty stand
of sound immature hardwoods, not large enough for saw logs.
Q,.
Now, the only outlet to market is to haul that timber off over the Massanutten
Mountain into Woodstock or take that long haul out through the lower end ot
the valley to Waterlick?
A. Yes.
Q,.
Would you say it is about eighteen or twenty miles from that tract out to
Waterlick?
A. I thought it was around sixteen miles trom that section. I don't think it
is twenty miles.
C<::MfiSSION:
BY
THE
Q..
Do
Q.
How do they compare with the Alexander land as to soil - the different types?
A. There is a larger proportion or lower slope and cove type on the tracts
mentioned, on the Munch land than the Alexander tract.
you lmow those two tracts Mr. Tavener spoke about?
A. Yes.
OBOSS EXAMINATION RESUMED BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
Now, on the Walter Fravel tract, that is absolutely on the side of the mountain,
is it not?
7"i 3
�A. Some ot it had been developed as an orchard, and a claim was made tor
an orchard value on that land.
Q.
That was a tew acres, was it not?
A. A tew had been actually planted, but a claim was made that some torty or
titty acres was adapted to it.
Q.
The bulk ot it was on the :t'ace ot that mountain that coul,d not be used other
than tor the growing ot timber?
A. Mountain land, mountain timber land, yes.
Q.
Do you recall what price the government paid, by contract, tor the Lenning
Estate property consisting of sixty thousand acres and located in the Shenandoah Mountain?
A. I don't recall.
Q,.
It is at the head ot the North Fork of the Shenandoah River and in Rockingham
County; you are familiar with that tract, aren't you?
A. I know the location. I did not help to examine that tract. I Jen.ow approximately the price paid, it was something like three or tour dollars; it might
have been as much as tour dollars. Title tor that was acquired atter I was
transferred to Tennessee. It was in the proces~ ot acquisition when I was on
this forest.
Q,.
you not also recall that some portions of that land were sought to be condemned and the appraisers fixed the valuation at tive to six dollars an acre
on it, but the government did not finally purchase that part ot it because of
the price?
A. That was atter I had moved trom the valley.
Q.
Do you not know that to be a tact?
A. No, I had not heard.
Q.
Are you temiliar with that large tract ot land in Bath County that was acquired by the National Forest, tor which they paid tour dollars an acre?
A. There were several large tracts, 11' I had the names.
Q.
Do you recall the names ot any ot those large tracts?
.A. I was in touch with the acquisition or the work of acquiring the Augusta
Woods Products tract in Augusta, near the Bath County line, the tract that
was not more than halt cut over; it had a lot ot virgin timber on it. There
were stave mills there. The company, atter the war, discontinued their operations and sold the land to the government.
Q.
Do you recall whether they paid five dollars?
A. Not as much as five dollara.
Do
BY COUNSEL: That is not the land I have in mind; I will have to find out the name.
I shall probably want to call you to the stand, Mr. Stoneburner, and ask you about
other condemnation proceedings in which four or tive dollars an acre was paid, but
I haven't the names of those tracts right at the moment, but may have them before
the day is over.
Now, in the fixing of these various prices for land tor the National Forest,
doesn't the government outline a aceJ.e ot prices whic}. they are willing to
�pay for land?
A. They do.
Q.
And it they cannot get it tor that price, then they just don't buy the land?
A. That is true.
Q.
Is it not the policy of the lorestry Department to encourage farmers to grow
and save the timber on their farms?
A. I believe there is sane extension work being done by the Department ot
Agricultu re in that direction , in --
Q.
In encouragi ng the public, particula rly the fai,n owners to save their timber;
doesn't your departmen t claim that that timber will increase in value at the
rate ot approxim ately a dollar an acre per year by the additiona l growth ot
timber?
A. I don't think any such claim as that is made. I have never used it myself,
and have never heard anyone make that claim for the best of land, especiall y
on what is termed marginal and sub-margi nal land.
Q.
I will ask you this question; where timber is developed to the point where it
is merchanta ble and on the average type of soil that produces good timber,
what does your departmen t claim -- I am speaking of the National Forest, under
which you have been working tor a number of yeara, in other words, the Reforestation Department of the Federal Department of Agricullu re-- how much do they
claim that that timber will increase in a year in value by its normal growth?
A. To be frank, I have never seen any definite statement . There is such a
wide range in the quality of tbe soil and the species of timber in this region
that it is very ditticult to arrive at any figures. I happen to mow that the
Experime ntal Station at Ashville have been conductin g a certain experimen t,
but they have never published any figures to be exact for any given type ot
land even. Market condition s and all that are so variable that it is problematical what the increase in value will be.
Q•
Now, you have heard the testimony of the state's 111.tnesses here as to some
parts of the timber on the Alexander tract being excellent timber, and you
have stated that you have bean over a part of the tract yourself -A. Since the other hearing, I have spent tour days on the tract.
Q.
Now, wool.d you not state to this Commission that the normal increase in
growth of that timber,pe r year, would be of considera ble value?
A. I can't say that it would. Fram having made some mat studies of the
trees, cut off some of them and determine d the rate ot growth, it is my
opini_on that a large part of the Alexander tract is what is termed as marginal or sub-marg inal land, land claimed by the Department ot Agricultu re or the
United States Forest officials to be land that should be in government ownership; that it is not pron table tor an individua l to make an investmen t in
and pay the taxes and expect to reap a profit. There is some or that land
that will grow merchanta ble saw timber in a course of time.
Q.
Isn't the pine on that tract ot land at the toe ot the mountain at the southeastern edge of this property ot rapid growth?
A. On the contrary, it has been my observati on that it is hardly average
growth.
Q.
Well, timber that makes about the average growth would increase in value
each year?
A. That is the particula r area that I had in mind when I said some of it
-65-
�would grow merchan table timber in a course ot time.
Q.
Is it not a tact that that tract of five hundred eighty nine acres that you
stated was purchase d :f'rom Mr. Clark was a tract that was sandwiched in between
a number ot other tracts,a nd not even a right ot way out from it, and on the
side ot the Massanu tten Mountain?
A. It was just like practic ally ever,, tract there; the question ot right of
way did not enter into the value ot it.
Q.
Isn't this the tract that was left there because of overlaps in other tracts
that were adjoinin g it?
A. It was not. The tract was acquired by direct purchas e, as evidence d by the
deed. It was adjoinin g the John M. Solomon tract. That tract was purchase d
tor taxes by Mr. Clark. It had not been assessed tor thirty or forty years.
Q.
And that case involvin g the condemnation of that land went up to the Assista nt
Attorney General twice before the government tinally bought the tract?
A.. I em convince d there was no effort made to condemn it. There is a straigh
t
out and out deed, signed by Mr. and Mrs. Clark.
HE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. A1NS'l'K>NG:
Q.
Q.
Did I understa nd you to say that,sin ce you last testitie d,you have visited the
Alexand er tract?
A.. Yes, and spent about tour days on it.
Did you remove any samples of the timber on that tract?
J.. I did.
Q.
Have you any such w1 th you?
A. Yes sir, I have five of them.
Q.
Where are they?
Q.
Now, Mr. Stonebu rner, will you exhibit the samples which you have there be1'ore
you to the Colllllissionera and tell them from what type of soil on the Alexand er
tract you took the same, and explain to the Commission whether er not that
timber has made a quick growth, or average growth or below average growth?
A. I aimed to take and did select daninan t trees in the stand, trees that were
ot equal· height or the best trees in the stand, and I did not get any suppress ed
trees in the specimen.ts taken, and I can identity the spot on the map on Big
Run and Depp Run, not more than five or six rods 1'rom the stream in any place
on the floor ot the valleys and in the hollows .
A. I have them here.
Q. Then I take it, the samples were taken from trees growing on cove type?
A. It was not classifi ed as cove type because of the poor quality; it was
classifi ed on the map as lower slope, not cove, but it was the best soil in
those two hollows .
Q.
Now, explain those samples to the Commission, it you please.
A. This pine tree, marked No. 2, was not quite sf inches in diamete r; inside
the bark it was about 8.67 and outside it was 9.87, and seventy -six years old.
I have a record as to the total usable length in the trees. This specimen of
pitch pine was~ inches in diamete r outside the bark 4½ feet trom the ground,
and measured at a point 6 inches in diamete r outside the bark it was sixteen
feet from the stump up to that point; that is number 6.
·
Q. Is that breast high?
�A. The diam eter of eight inche s was 4½ feet from the
groun d.
A chest nut oak, label ed No. 4t is forty -thre
e years old, 7½ inche s in diam eter
outsi de the bark at a poin t 42 :rae, from the ground,
up to a poin t 6 inche s in diam eter outsi de the bark. and was twent y feet long
Specimen No. 5 is ches tnut oak a¼ inche s in diam eter outsi de the bark at a poin
t 4i- feet trom the
ground and was twent y teet long up to a poin t 6 inche
s
in
diam eter outsi de the
bark. Specimen No. 1, scar let oak, is nine inche s in
diam
eter 4i- f'eet from the
ground and was 22 feet up to a poin t 6 inche s in diam
eter;
it is between seven ty
and eight y years old.
Q,.
Mr. Stone burne r, I hear you say that these secti ons which
abou t which you have testi fied , are forty to eight y years you have iden tifie d,
old. To the eye ot
an inexp erien ced man they do
not look like much more than good sized sapli ngs.
How do you accou nt tor that?
A. Poor soil and repea ted tires .
RE-CROSS
EXAMINATION
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
Do
Q.
What is the age ot that exhib it?
~.
Tbat ia a 1'ully matu red oak, i_a it not, that
you took that sample trom?
A. No, I would not say; I would say it we.a an imat
ure
you have a chest nut oak there ?
A. Yes.
A. 1!'1tt y-tou r years .
tree.
Q,.
In what
way?
A. That it showed no evide nce ot decay due to old age; that
there was still a
chance tor it to grow.
Q,.
Well, when I speak of a matu re tree, I do not mean where
it has reach ed the
poin t where it is ready to decli ne; I mean a tree that
has
reach ed a stage ot
growth where it can be utili zed as merc hanta ble timb er.
In
that sense of the
word matu rity, you would call that a matu re tree?
A. Not unlea a you would expec t to use the bark. The rest
I would not cons ider
merc hanta ble, ot merc hanta ble size.
Q.
What is the diam eter ot that tree, brea st high?
A. •igh t and a quar ter inche s outsi de the bark.
Q. Then you mean to state to this Commission that all the
timbe r on that tract
that is el- inche s in diam eter, brea st high, is ot no
merc
A. Of that spec ies, ot chest nut oak, I would aay has no hanta ble WJ..ue to us?
saw timb er.
merc hanta ble value tor
Q.
Well, wbat about staTe wood?
A. I have neTe r seen any ches tnut oak being used for
stave s; I know ot none
being used so, ches tnut oak of that size.
Q,.
Do you not know that the best size tor stave
wood timb er is between six and
nine inche s?
A. Of the speci es that are in dElll.and tor stave s, I will
gran t you that.
l'il
�Q.
What is the age at which a chestnut oak is mature enough to be merchantable?
A. Ordinarilly a chestnut oak stand must have reached the age ot seventy-five
years betore it is large enough for aaw timber.
Q.
Now, Mr. Stoneburner, isn't it usually considend that chestnut oak torty years
ot age is old enough tor ties and wood ot that sort?
A. I tailed to find any stands that would have made that growth, and I have
seen quite a few in the Blue Ridge.
Q.
Now it this particular exhibit, No. 5, is now only fifty-tour years old, and you
say it requires a tree seventy-five years old to be merchantable timber, then
this particular exhibit cannot be tar below what it should be at fifty-four
years ot age?
A. At seventy-five years of ese, a stand of chestnut oak is not ot the best; it
is just entering the merchantable stage, in my experience.
Q.
Well then, one of the greater differences between the State and the claimants
in this case is as to what is merchantable timber and what is not. If your
contention is correct that timber is of no value until it is seventy-five years
of age, or at least ia not merchantable until seventy-five years ot age, and
your witnesses have shown approximately two millions ot feet ot timber on there,
tBey are speaking then ot timber that is considerably advanced in age?
A. They are speaking of all the trees from ten inches in diameter up.
Q.
Well, when this chestnut oak is seventy-five years ot age, what would you say
its diameter would be, breast high?
BY MR. AH.Jgl'roNG: Question objected to because, manitestly, no person could say what
would be the size of any particular tree in a good number of years. It is bound to
depend on any number ot circumstances and conditiona that the question does not include; namely, quality ot soil, whether watered sutticiently to induce growth, exposure and type ot soil, whether ot rich slope or cove type, and perhaps many other
circumetances.
BY MR. TAVENER: In reply to that objection,counael states that the witness hastestified that he knows exactly where he got this exhibit, he knows the nature of the
soil; that he is an expert on trees and tree values; that he has made a study ot
these particular trees, and it any witness could be qualitied to answer a question
ot that type, certainly this witness has qualified himself as an expert on that
matter, and could certainly be expected to answer what, under normal conditions,
would be the diameter ot that tree when it is seventy-ti ve years old.
BY MR. AIMSTRONG: If counsel for claimant means by his question to reter to the
particular tree from which the exhibit was taken, and not to trees generally, then
the objection is withdrawn.
BY MR. TAVENER: The question reterred only to Exhibit No. 5.
A. At the same rate of growth made in the last twenty-five years, this tree
could be expected to attain a diameter of ll¾ inches at the age of seventy-five
years.
Q.
Now, Mr. Stoneburner, on how many other tracts in Shenandoah National Park have
you cut the trees and made an investigation ot this exact type, if any?
A. I recall one tract on the Massanutten Mountain --
�· Q,.
In the Shenandoah Nation al Park?
A. In the Shenandoah Nation al Forest .
Q.
In the Shenandoah Nation al Park was my questio n.
A. I would have to say none, because I know ot no other tract where the soil
is quite as bad except one. There is one other tract that has virtua lly no
chestn ut oak or any timber or that size on it. I have examined the timber
a number of tracts where the soil is better quality on the other side of theon
Blue Ridge, or the same specie s, and found that the trees had made a better
rate ot growth .
Q..
But you cannot compare this tract with any
al Park as to the growth ot trees, becaus e
on any other tract?
A. I have examined them withou t making any
have looked into it to get some idea about
Q.
other tract in the Shenandoah Nation •
you have not made that exemina"tion
record of the figures , becaus e I
the rate ot growth .
But it you did not do it with the idea or preserr ing figures on it, you would
not be able to make any accura te comparison ot this tract and any other tract
in the Shenandoah Nation al Park?
A. Only in a genera l '18-Y•
BY MR. WALKER:
Q.
I believe you brough t here, Mr. Stoneb urner, five exhibi ts of samples of trees,
numbers l, 2, 3, 4 and 5; is that c orrect?
A. Ntllllber l, 2, 4, 5 and 6. I spoiled No. 3 in getting it shaped up.
Q.
Are any ot those exhibi ts over ten inches in diamet er, breast high?
A. None.
Q.
None over ten inches?
Q.
You have heard all the testimo ny in this case, I believe , have you not, Mr.
Stoneb urner?
A. Practi cally all.
Q.
Then the two million feet of timber which has been apprais ed on the Mount
Vernon tract of land by the government apprai sers is in excess ot ten inches
,
breast high?
A. Ten inches and up, yes sir.
Q.
Then
some
been
A. I
Q.
That must be the case now.
A. It is the genera l practic e to value young growth under ten inches in
diamet er with the soil.
Q,.
Now, Mr. Stoneb urner, we have had the government apprai sers on this stand
and all of them have testifi ed that they placed no vaJ.ue upon any timber under
ten inches , breast high. Are the government apprai sers right in that stateme
nt
or are they wrong, and·al l have testifi ed to it?
A. No.
the government apprai sers have absolu tely given no value to timber, or
of the timber trom which these sample s that you have brough t here have
cut?
cannot say that that is the case.
7'fl
�A. I will have to answer that this way; I testified at the beginning that I
had not prepared the examination report. I assisted in the preparation of that
report to the extent ot a consultation on the type values; I was consulted to
that extent, and I know, ot my own knowledge, that all young growth not considered merchantable size was counted with the soil, and that the absence or presence ot young growth determined in a large measure the price per acre fixed for
the soil, the cove and the slope types appearing in the report.
Q.
Now, without arguing the case, Mr. Stoneburner, isn't it a fact that ever:,
appraiser for the government who has testified in this case, and I will not
call names because it is not necessar:,, have testified that they did not take
into consideration tor timber value any timber less than ten inches in diameter,
breast high?
A. I think you are correct to that extent; they were not included in the estimate
ot timber, that was my understanding of the answers.
Q..
~hen, that being true, the government appraisers have absolutely fixed no ·v alue
on timber similar to Emllbits Nos. l, 2, 4, 5 and 6 which you have brought here
before the Commissioners?
A. I can't say that that is the case. The report shows six hundred cords of .wood
that is made up of that species, pitch pine.
Q.
Well, in other words, the government appraisers have absolutely tixed no value
on timber under ten inches in diameter, breast high, similar to the exhibits
brought here, as merchantable timber?
A. They did consider sl.l the pine on a given area down to five or six inches.
That was for comb wood. My understanding was that it was an estimate of wood
tor llhatever purposes it might be used.
Q..
Don't let us dtlp the issue again; I em talking about what you tenn merchantable timber, and I will ask you again if you placed any value on the timber
similar to the exhibits you have brought here as merchantable timber?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
What value have you placed on timber similar to the exhibits you brought here,as
merchantable timber?
A. Fifty cents per cord tor pitch pine ot 128 cubic feet, where it occurred in
suf'ticient quantity to be considered merchantable.
Q.
Well, is this ~rticular value that you have just mentioned restricted to pine?
A. Yes.
Q..
What are the exhibits that did not include pine; just the numbers, please?
A. Numbers 5, 4 and l; there are two chestnut oaks and a scarlet oak.
Q..
Then timber similar to Exhibits Nos. 5, 4 and l under ten inches in diameter,
breast high, has not been considered of any value at all by the government
appraisers?
A. It was considered with the soil. It was not estimated as saw timber or not
estimated for any specific product.
Q.
Then you have estimated the value ot timber similar to Exhibits l, · 4 and 5 as
of the soil, and then you have not placed any soil at more than one dollar an
acre, have you?
A. Some of it is two dollars and a quarter and two and a halt.
Q..
An almost infilit*aimally small amount you have placed at two dollars and a
quarter and two and a halt?
-70,.. .
-~---
150
�A. The gre~ter portion is less than that.
Q..
Then if any of that land is well timbered with timber similar to Exhibits 1, 4
and 5, you have not valued it at more than two dollars an acre?
A. Whatever the highest price is.
)IY MR. AIMSTRONG:
Q. Mr. Stoneburner , I believe you have stated that you assigned values to the
various types of soil on this Alexander tract, did you not?
A. I assisted, yes.
A. Yes.
Q.
You expressed your opinion as tot.he value?
Q..
I hdd you herewith a typewritten memorandum showing 19,554 acres of land on
the Alexander tract in Rockinghem County, classified as to type, with a per
acre value set opposite each type, and ask you whether or not you had anything
to do with the fixing of those values?
A. Yes, I did; these are my vel.uations. This memorandum reads as follows:
"Rockingham County value of land by types.
$4403.00
8806 acres, at a value of 50¢ per acre, making
(bumed)
Eidge
17991.00
Slope type, 7996 acres, value per acre, $2.25, total
3125.00
Slop• type (burned) 2500 acres, value per acre $1..25, total
1004.00
Cove type, 223 acres, valued at $4.50 per acre, total
36.00
Grazing type, 2 acres, valued at $18.00 per acre, total
375.00
Tillable type, 25 acres, valued at $15.00 per acre, total
16.00
Woodland grazing type, 2 acres, at $8.00 per acre, total
$26,950.00 "
Total acreage 19,554 acres, total. value
Q..
I understand this value to be exclusive of growing merchantabl e timber; that is,
exclusive of all growing merchantabl e timber that will measure ten inches across
the butt, breast high; am I correct in that?
A. You are, with the exception of the pine; that was counted as another product,
that was below ten inches. This table excludes all merchantabl e timber under ten
inches escept young pine.
Q.
In arriving at the value of the various types and in fixing this value, what did
you consider; what entered into the value?
BY MR. WALKER: This question excepted to tor the reason that the witness has heretofore stated that he has not cruised over all of the Alexander tract of land. He has
only been over about three-fourt hs ot it.
~.
It it be true that you have been over three-fourt hs of the Alexander tract,state
how you arrived at the various values of types on the three-fourt hs that you
were over?
A. The character of the soil, depth of soil, the roughness of the slopes or
surfaces and the condition of the in:mature timber was all considered. It is a
matter of judgment largely, and by comparison with lands that have been sold.
Q.
So, if there was timber growing on the soil, though not, in your judgment,
marketable as merchantabl e saw timber, you nevertheles s gave it some value, did
you not?
A. Yes.
751
�Q.
And it is included in the values which you have assigned to the various types
ot soil?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Then, do I understand that everything of any value, present or reasonably prospective, in the way of timber bas been taken into consideration and assigned a
value?
A. Yes sir.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q.
Mr. Stoneburner, I note that on this typewritten paper, presumably the result
of work of several government anployees, you find that out ot an acreage of
19,554 acres, there are only two acres put down as grazing, twenty-tive acres
put down as tillable and two acres put down as woodland grazing. Don't you think
•
that is a little tar tetched?
A. I think not.
Q.
Those who made up such a statement as that out of an acreage ot 19,554 acres;
don't you think they were romancing somewhat?
A. I don't think so.
Q•
Did you go near the superintendent's house, where Mace lives?
A. A number of times.
~.
Aren't there more than two acres of grazing land right there?
A. I think that was all classified as cultivated land. I think there is some
grazing land in Mile Bun.
Q.
I don't see any land here classified at all as cultivated land.
A. Soaetimes that term is used indiscriminately where it is used to indicate
the more valuable land, the cleared land.
Q•
Did you not use a good many things here indiscriminately in order to reduce
the Talue of this property?
A. I think that is a fair value of that land.
Q.
Don't you know that where John Mace lives there is more than two acres of
woodland grazing?
A. That depends sanewhat on what is classed as woodland grazing. I know we
have used that classification where there is some grass mixed through a
scattered stand of timber, in forest land that may be used to range cattle on.
Q..
Are you familiar w1 th the grazing tarm of J. o. Armstrong?
A. I think I em fairly well acquainted With it.
Q.
That of c. L. and J. c. Hedrick?
A. Yes sir, I have been on it.
Q.
That of J. W. Hinkle?
A. I have not been on that tract, but I know where it is located.
Q.
That ot Ella F. Hictle?
Q.
That of
w.
P.R. Weaver?
A. I wasn't on that tract.
A. Yes sir.
-72752-
�Q.
That of E. R. McFadden?
Q..
That of I. G. Kaylor, adjoining the Weaver tract?
A. I know where that is, yes sir.
A. Yes sir.
Q. Isn't it a fact that all of the land owners that I have mentioned have fairly
valuable grazing farms and worth from fifty to a hundred dollars an acre?
A. I wouldn't say it was so valuable.
Q.
Well, it is considered valuable to them, anyway?
A. It is considerably more valuable as cleared land.
Q.
Aren't those tarms recoanized as good grazing lands, and those tanners place
a high value on them, and those farms have been selling in recent years trom
fifty to a hundred dollars an acre?
A. I don't think at that price.
Q.
Are allot those farms within what was known as the exterior boundary ot the
Mount Vernon tract, as shown by the old map?
A. Several.
Q.
All adjoining the Mount Vernon tract?
A. Taken as a group, they are.
Q.
Yet, adjoining this Mount Vernon tract ot land and w1 thin its exterior boundary, as shown by the old suney, I believe the Hotchkiss Suney, there are
several thousand acres of good grazing land, and yet, on an acreage of 19,000
acres ot land, adjoining these grazing tarms, you report that there are only
two acres of grazing land. Now, isn't that, on the tace of it, absurd?
A. No, I think not.
I think our examination men have shown every acre ot
cleared land that is there.
Q.
In other words, Mr. Stoneburner, there is a tract of over *1netwen thousand
acres of land adjoining several thousand acres of splendid grazing land, yet
on these nineteen thousand acres of land, which was included in the original
Mount Vernon Survey, there is only left two acres of grazing land?
A. I think that classification is correct,as to cleared land.
Q.
Can you, with any reasonable degree of conmen sense see how on a survey of
twenty thousand acres you can cut five thousand acres which turns out to be
splendid grazing land, and leave only two acres in an area of nineteen thousand
acres?
A. Because it was not developed and cleared tor grazing land.
Q.
Well, it that land were cleared, it would be just as valuable tor grazing lend
as that which has been cleared?
A. Only a small part ot it.
Q.
Well, how about that land on the various runs, on Deep D.ln?
A. It is too rocky and sandy.
Q. How much of that land upon which you were kind enough to give us two million
feet or timber?
A. That is comparatively rough, in mountain gorges, ravines, whereas the five
thousand acres of grazing land ot Weaver and McFadden is on the smooth side ot
the mountain, different soil formation, different slope.
?53
�Q. There is only a dividing line dividing these grazing tams and the Mount Vernon
Survey?
A. There is a distinct demarkation in the soil.
Q. There is such a distinct demarkation in the soil that you can cut ott grazing
tarms ot several thousand acres of great value, and leave nineteen thousand acres
in which there is only two acres ot grazing land?
A. Yes sir.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
The dividing of that land up into slope, cove and wood land was done by Mr. Smith,
who. was the first witness in this case, was it not?
A. Mr. Smith and Mr. Witt.
Q. Mr. Witt has already testified?
A. Yes.
Q.
I think he testified that he was only in two runs, but Mr. Smith did the rest
of the work?
A. Yes.
Q.
You took their estimates on the slopes end the woodland and based your figures
according to that?
A. Attar checking it on the ground, yes.
Q.
You made no measurement at all of the amount of timber that was, say, six inches
one foot above the ground up to ten inches, breast high, did you?
A. No actual. measurement w1 th a rule; an occular estimate.
Q.
Well, what are your estimates, then, of timber in these various runs trom six
inches one foot above the ground up to ten inches, breast high?
A. The only place where we considered the six inch material was in the pine
region.
Q.
Then you did not make any estimate of that except in the pine tract?
A. The hardwoods six inches up to ten inches was considered with the other
young growth in the soil value. I didn't make any estimate of how much timber
there was of that size.
Q. Then your calculation of the value is absolutely problematical, isn't it?
A. No, it is a case o~ judgment, comparing the young growth on the sides with
the young growth on the ridges and bearing in mind what, on similar land, they
sold for.
Q.
Now, Mr. Stoneburner, didn't you just take those estimates that the surveyor
had made and fix what you thought was a fair price, without going into detail
as to how much timber there was six to ten inches, or how much timber there
was on these various sub-divisions of land?
A. We used no mathamatical formula, but they were considered; they were examined before an estimate was made as to the total value of the tract. The value
per acre for the different classifications was not put down hastily or at
random; it was after the cruisers had been on it, and inspected by Mr. Marsh
and myself at different times.
~.
Now, at the time you prepared this estimate on the value of these different
75'/
�types ot land, you had not been over more than three-fourths of the land,
according to your statement here the other day; that is correct, isn't it?
A. I had been over about three-fourths of it at that time.
Q.
How can you give an estimate of the amount of small timber, or timber under
ten inches, breast high, on these various sub-divisions or classifications of
land, when you had not been over them all?
A. They are so uniform; the young growth is of such a unirorm character.
Q. That is what I em getting at; you just made a general estimate on this without
making an estimate of the timber under ten inches, breast high, and took it on
an average, and, ot coume, I know you did it according to your best judgment
Q.
Now, you have been asked questions about there being only two acres of grazing
land and you have stated that there was very little land there that could be
cut over and used for grazing land; don't you recall, Mr. Stoneburner, that
there is a tract of somewhere near two thousand acres of land that is nearly
level, extending from the toe of the mountain, the southeastern corner of this
property, and extending clear down almost to Grottoes, and possibly some little
ot it extending beyond the Norfolk and Western Railroad; you are femiliar With
that, aren't you?
A. Yes.
Q.
Do you not know that there have been tracts sold oft of that that are now owned
by people operating farms there; tor instance, Mr. George Roadcap; do you not
know that?
A. Yes.
Q.
Do you not know that Mr. Coleman, at the eastern end, has a very valuable farm,
and has grazing land that you could not buy for lees than a hundred dollars an
acre?
BY MR • .ARIDTRONG: Question objected to as to what you could buy the land for.
A. I did not kn.ow what he was holding the place for. I would not consider it
worth that per acre.
Q.
Do you not know that there are a number of other tracts that were sold in 1917
and 1918 for titty dollars an acre, known aa the Richland Heights?
A. I have talked with one or two of the owners, who told me that they paid that,
but they considered they paid too much; one imn told me that about a month ago.
Q,.
Isn't all that land there used for grazing purposes?
A. It is not good grazing land.
Q,.
Now, wouldn't all this tract of
which Mace lives, at the toe of
land that could be utilized for
A. I think any man would make a
do, honestly.
Q,.
You mean that, in your opinion, it would be a mistake, yet you must admit that
it could be used tor that purpose?
A. It could be cleared up and a certain number of head ot sheep or cattle run
on it.
land, Virtually all of it, from the house in
the mountain, on down almost to Grottoes, be
grazing purposes?
mistake to develope 1 t for grazing purposes; I
-75-
�Q,.
How many acres would you say are in that tract that could be utilized in that
way?
A. I made a calculati on the other day -- less than a thousand acres of a gentle
slope there in this county.
Q.
Do you know how many acres of this are in Augusta County?
A. A couple of hundred across over on the other line there.
Q,.
You made no actual survey?
A. I took the map and scaled it. I did not compute the acreage. I scaled it
one day last week when I was up there. It is nearly divided in two parts,
that is why I remember it.
Q.
Do you not know that Mr. George Roadcap has a nice little fann there that came
off this same tract?
A. I was on it the other day. I didn't know that it had been owned by the
Alexander people.
Q.
Would you say that that land of his there is worth fifty dollars an acre, and
I don't imagine that he would accept that tor it?
A. I would think that would be high tor it.
Q.
That is the same type ot soil exactly as the rest of this twelve or fifteen
hundred acres, is it not?
A. Perhaps a little smoother than this other. This is a little inclined to be
swampy in this titteen hundred acres.
Q,.
Now, Mr. Stoneburn er, after refreshin g your mind about this large tract at the
base ot the mountain and these adjoining tracts that are used for grazing purposes and some ot which were taken ott the Alexander tract, do you still say
there are only two acres ot grazing land on that property?
A. I was speaking a while ago of actually cleared land. There is a certain area
that might be cleared up and put to some other use. In that sense, two acres
isn't the extent of the grazing land, but what we classed as grazing land has
been cleared land.
Q.
Couldn't practical ly all of that whole tract in there be used for grazing, now?
A. I t you recall, pine is about the only timber on that lower tract. It isn't
the type of land that is ordinaril ly devoted to grazing o_r developed for grazing.
Q. But, isn't land of that type frequentl y used tor grazing purposes?
A. There is some of that land in Rockingham County between the mountain and the
river that has been cleared, but the farmers have testified that they have had
to have the land on top for grass, but the land at the foot of the mountain was
not good graas land; it wouldn't hold the sod.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q.
~.
In other words, Mr. Stoneburn er, when you refer to grazing land, that classific ation meaaa that it must be cleared and grass growing on it?
A. It had to be cleared before we classifie d it that way.
And what you classify as tillable, you mean land cleared and in cultivatio n?
A. Yes.
Q.
What is this land?
A. A.scatter ed stand of trees with some grass around between the trees.
-'76-
�Q.
So then, under that classification, if there are a thousand acres up there that
can be made into grazing land, tillable land or woodland grazing, you did not
attach any value to that at all.
A. That was not considered in the report.
Q.
In
be
it
A.
Q.
other wol'ds, if there is an acre of soil that we could find there which can
cleared and used for cultivation, for grazing, you don't attach any value to
as to tillable soil or grazing soil?
Not unless it was an area large enough to justify the trouble.
Well, if there are areas there large enough to justify the trouble, you did not
give that any value?
A. If there are :t'1 ve thousand acres--
Q.
It there are five thousand acres, that would justit'y the trouble, and you don't
attach any value at all to that potentiality?
A. No, we didn't in this case.
Q.
So, in the appr aisement that you made, there is absolutely no value attached
whatever to potential values?
A. We didn't think that that lend had values tor any other use other than growing timber.
Q.
I asked if you gave any value to potential values, as to what the land might
be used for?
A. We did not.
BY MR • .MMm'RONG:
What, in
your opinion, is the tair, cash, market value of the tract of 19,554 acres,
known as the Alexander tract now under consideration in Rockingham County,excluding the standing merchantable timber of ten inches acress the butt, breast
high, and excluding the pine six inches across the butt, breast high, as to
which you have testified; excluding those, what is the fair, cash, market value
of the tract for all other purposes, to the best of your judgment?
A. Exclusive of buildings also?
Q•
I would like to now ask you a question tor the sake of the record.
Q.
I will say for your benefit that the value of the buildings have been agreed
upon as eight hundred and fifty dollars.
A. The total value of the tract, exclusive of timber end buildings, is
$26,950.00.
Q,.
You mean the fair, cash,market price of the tract?
A. Yes.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q.
It you knew that there was a reliable prospective purchaser at that price which
you have just named, would you increase the price?
A. I would not.
Q.
Would you think the purchaser would be getting stuck?
A. I couldn't see how he could get a return on that investment.
Q.
Do you take into consideration the value that Mr. Campbell placed on a five
thousand acre tract as being the best hunting and fishing preserve that he knew
of anywhere?
157
�A. Yes, considering that also.
Q..
Did you take into consideration the value ot any minerals on the property?
A. No, I didn't.
Q.
But, you took in every other value that you could possibly think ot and fixed
it at twenty-six thousand dollars?
A. Not including the timber.
BY MR. AlMSTRONG:
Q.
Mr. Stoneburner, I hand you herewith what purports to be a certified copy
made by the Clerk ot the Circuit Court ot Shenandoah County, Virginia, ot
a deed of record in his office, dated July 10, 1922, made by Ernest D. Clark
and Bertha B. Clark, his w11'e, to the United States ot America, conveying a
tract ot land therein described, in Shenandoah County, containing 589.51
acres, tor the named consideration ot $1473.70, cash. Was this copy obtain•
ed by you from the County Clerk of Shenandoah County, Virginia?
A. It was.
Q..
Will you file it with your testimony taken here today and ask the stenographer
to mark it Exhibit x.
A. I will.
And further this deponent saith not.
s. H. MARSHa a witness ot lawful age, being duly sworn, deposes and says as
tollows:
MR.
A. s. H. Marsh.
Q.
Please state your name.
Q.
Age?
Q.
What is your occupation or relationship with the Virginia State Commission on
Conservation and Development?
A. My title is Park Supervisor, and I have charge ot the examination work in
connection with the purchase of the Shenandoah National Park.
Q..
A. Forty-five.
You mean of the acquiring ot lands for the Shenandoah National Park?
A. Yes.
Q•
How long have you been an.ployed by the Conmission in this capacity?
Since February 15, 1930.
Q.
Where were you educated?
Q.
Any other college?
A. Yes, but that is where I took
A. Yale University.
my
technical work.
�Q. Are you not
el.so a graduate
ot Berea College?
A. Yes.
Q. Did I understand you to say that you took a technical course at Yale?
A. Yes.
A. Forestry Course.
Q..
What?
Q..
Covering what period ot time?
Q.
Atter you came out ot Yale, what did you do?
A. I went with the United States Forest Service as timber cruiser in North
A. Two years.
Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, and worked with the United States Forest Service as a cruiser tor about a year and was transterred to Virginia in
charge of the examination of the proposed Shenandoah National Forest area. It
was not a national forest at that time, but had been laid out as a national
forest, and I was sent here to take charge ot the work of examining this area
preparatory to purchase. That was in 1912, and we continued to examine the
land from 1912 until 1917. There was about five years in there when we were
examining the land continuously, end during which time examination work was
the principal part ot the work done.
Q.
What do you mean by "examining land"?
A. Cruising the timber end making a map showing the types of land and making
land valuations and timber valuations preparatory to negotiating with the owners for those tracts ot land.
Q. Estimating the acreage ot the ditterent types aJ.so?
A. Oh, yes.
Q.
Placing values on different types in different localities?
A. That' IS right.
Q,.
Placing values on dit'ferent species of timber and grading it as to quality
and so torth?
A. Yes.
Q..
After 1917 what did you do?
A. In 1917 a sutticient amount of land had been acquired to make a national
forest, and I was made Superintendent in 1917 of that forest. We continued,
then, to examine lands within this area. The lands were examined even after
it became a national forest, and that formed a considerable part of the work
we had to do from that time on. Also, we sold timber, leased grazing rights,
leased farms, and, ot course, fire protection was quite a considerable portion, and I had charge of the work until 1927, and then I was transferred to
the Washington otfice as an Inspector, and worked for two years before coming
with the State in the states ot Virginia and West Virginia, North Carolina and
South Carolina, Georgia and Florida.
Q. You mean you worked in the states you have just named as an employee of the
Federal Government?
A. That's right.
Q. And thereat'ter you accepted th~ position ot Park Supervisor with the Virginia
State Commission on Conservation and Development beginning about the 15th ot
February, 1930?
A. Yes.
-79~
15''1
�Q.
And have you been engaged in this last mentioned work continuously from that time
to the present?
A. I have.
Q.
In your capacity ae employee of the United States Government in its forestry work,
what counties in Virginia, it eny, did you work in?
A. Parts of thirteen counties included in the Shenandoah National Forest; two or
three ot these counties lying in West Virginia. The counties of Bath, Rock, Bridge ,
Highland, Augusta, Pendleton, Shenandoah, Frederick, Bockingham, Warren and Page,
and Hardy and Hempstead counties in West Virginia. I reckon there are thirteen.
Q•
You worked personally in each of these counties you have named?
A. Yes.
Q.
In the mountains, ot course?
Q.
What mountain ranges, what were they known as?
A. You mean in the Shenandoah National Forest?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes •
The range was known as the Shenandoah or Great North Range. In the northern
part it is known as the Great North Mountain, in the southern part as the Shenandoah.
.&..
Q.
Did you work over what is known as the Massanutten Mountains in Rockingham and
Shenandoah Counties?
A. Yes sir.
Q. In what is known as The Fort in Shenandoah and Warren, or not?
A. Yes. The Massanutten was .one diVision of the Shenandoah National Forest. The
thirteen counties included Massanutten and the other two divisions lttich lie
over on the west side ot the valley.
Q.
Now, in your capacity ae Park Director, please state whether or not your duties
required you to visit and familiarize yourself with the Blue Bidge Mountain,
particularly in the counties of Warren, Rappahannock, Page, Madison, Green,
Albemarle, Rockingham and Augusta?
A. They have.
Q.
Have you been upon the lands in those counties for the purpose of ascertaining
the fair, cash, market value of the land thereon?
A. I have.
Q.
Coming now to the tract under consideration; namely, the Alexander tract, and
to the acres of the same in Rockingham County, namely some 19,554 acres, I will
ask you if you are personally familiar with this tract?
A. I am.
Q.
Pardon me, Mr. Marsh, I desire to go back now once more to the organization of
your office and to ascertain how you and your subordinates discharge your duties.
Tell the Board of Appraisal Comnissioners just how your office is run, the duties
of your various employees, with respect to ascertaining the values of lands and
timber, and, for that matter, all purposes for ·which lands within the Shenandoah
National Park area are reasonably adapted.
A. Well, the first thing to do is make a map of the county in whioh we are working. We have to work out an ownership map; having worked out this ownership map,
we take each tract and go through it very carefully, making a type map of the
property. That consists of running st.rAaa through the property at regular inter-
�vals. The crew which is running strips through the property examine the land and
map it as they go through. When they get to the end ot the strip, they offset and
go back on a parallel line, also mapping timber types and soil types and making a
cruise ot the timber. Fach strip is run back parallel with the strip preceding it;
the mapping continues, and a:f'ter the whole tract has been stripped, then we have
what we consider an accurate map ot the property by types; and also we get tran
these strips an estimate ot the timber. In this Alexander case we had very little
b_.t timber types to work with. It was a case ot di~ferentiating between the cove
type down in the hollows, the slope type on the sides ot the ridges, and the ridge
type wbich occurs along the tops of the ridges. There was very 11 ttle agricultural
or grazing land or land of other character than timber land in this tract.
Q..
But, I would like to understand a l1 ttle more fully the workings ot your organization. As I understand, after the map that you referred to has been prepared, you
send out skilled men to find and report what there is or value on the land, and
they make such reports to you, do they not?
A. They do. In this particular case, the men who were assigned to this job were
men who had a considerable amount of experience in this line of work on the Great
Smokey Range when the proposed Smokey Mountain National Park was in the process
of acquisition, and in this country betore going on this tract; that is, in Virginia within the Park area, before going on this tract. I took those men out,
we went over the ground and studied the lay of the land and decided where the
strips would be located and the directions in which they would run, and worked
all that out very carefully on the map and by a preliminary survey on the ground
before they ever started the work. Then I was with thEID. on several occasions
while the work was progressing. I had been on the tract before and had worked
over it, and have been on the tract since and have checked up with thsn on the
ground at the time ther were making the survey.
Q.
When these employees would me.ke a report to you of what they had found, say, for
instance so many thousand feet of standing timber of certain varieties, would
they estimate, or place an estimate of value on the different species of timber
found, or not?
A. No, they did not. They mede an estimate, which estimate was checked. I did
not accept their estimate, that is, without further cheek. We had a man, Mr.
Jack Shifflet, who has testified, whom we used as a check estimator. I sent Mr.
Shifflet over this tract after the regular cruisers had cruised it, and I got
Mr. Will Shifflet, who is here, to go with him over the tract. Mr. Will Shifflet
knew the l~ of the land better than Mr. J. A. Shifflet, and I wanted Will Shittlet to be with him as a guide and also I wanted his judgxmnt on the timber, and
those men knew nothing whatever about the amount of timber which was found by
the cruisers. The estimates had been worked up, but those men knew nothing whatever about the estimates of the cruisers when they went on the property. That ia
the custom we followed throughout. There is no use in having a check estimator
• if the check estimator knows what the other men found/ The value is to get the
check estimates on the original estimates of the value of the timber. In this
particular case I was not satisfied, but I got another check estimator, Mr.
Campbell, and put him on the tract, and he knew nothing of the estimates of the
two Shifflets or the estimates ot the cruisers. He didn't know any of the
cruisers. I shipped him in here and put him in a diftarent boarding place and
nobody knew he was in the country at all until he had been here about a week,
and then he had no opportunity to talk with any of the cruisers until after his
estimates had been filed. I knew it was a large tract of land and it might be
difficult to convince a Commission or anyone else that there was so little timber
on it as I knew there was.
%1
�A. (cont'd.) I might add -- I did not get quite to the end o:f' the story,
Those check estimates having .been submitted and out other estimates having
been submitted, a report was written on this tract by me, which embodied my
ideas as to the value, in consultation, or course, with Mr. Stoneburner, who
was my assistant.
Q,.
What report are you speaking ot?
A. A report
Q.
Do
Q.
Let me see it,
Witness hands counsel report.
Q.
That report, you say, was made up by you and your assistant, Mr. Stoneburner?
A. Yes.
Q.
Q.
you have it?
A. Yes.
Attar consultation w1 th Mr. Stoneburner, Mr. Witt, Mr. Smith, the two Mr.
Shit:f'lets; all of thEm were consulted?
A. No, not all ot them; Mr. Will Shittlet was not. The report was written before he came into the picture.
Well, had you been on the land before that report was written up?
A. I had, and also attenrard.
Q.
Did you make a pretty complete inspection ot the land?
A. Yes.
Q.
And of the timber growing on the land?
Q.
And did you, in your own mind, make an estimate o:f' the acres of slope type and
of ridge type and o:f' cove type on the nineteen thousand acre tract?
A. Yes.
A. I o.id.
Q,.
And of the values of the different types per acre, and of the- values of the
standing timber in accordance with the species and the location thereof?
A. Yee sir, I did.
Q.
And all or that is embodied in this memorandum?
Q.
Now, Mr. Marsh, I Will ask you to tell the Commission, based upon your knowledge,
your personal knowledge of the land and everything that goes· to make up its
A. Yes sir.
value, and based upon your information gained and obtained as you have testitied;
I say, tell the Commission the fair, cash, market value of this tract of 19,554
acres in Rockingham County, and tell the Commission what makes up that aggregate
value; that is, the various values in detail and every element that goes to make
up the value.
A. Reterring to the manorandum, in the Rockingham portion of the tract, the land
value is estimated at $26,950.00; timber valued at $4,117.50, the improvements
valued at $585.00, which, of course, there is an understanding about, or a tote.l
of $31,652.50.
Q.
Mr. Marsh, I will ask you whether or not that memorandum that you now have be-
fore you and from which you have testified is or is not the id&ntical memorandum
and the identical figures that were had before this Commission at the time of the
taking of testimony of former witnesses in this case?
A. It is.
-82-
�Q,.
Has it been changed in any particular whatsoever?
A. It has not. In tact. the gentlemen had an opportunity to examine it at that
time. There has been no changes whatsoever.
Q.
Now. Mr. Marsh, continuing your testimony, end referring to portions ot the
Alexander tract lying in other counties . than Rockingham, please state how many
acres lie in each of the other counties end what, in your opinion, is the fair,
cash, market value of each acreage in each other county.
A. In Augusta County we found the following: 3?0 acres of slope type land, tract
number l, which is valued at $1480.00. The timber on that land amounts to $1.00.00;
there are no improvements. The total value of the tract is $1580.00. That is one
tract in Augusta County. The Rockingham Co\lll"ty tract is No. 326. One little tract
in Rockingham County, 326-A, a small tract of four acres with a value of $2?3.00,
which should be added to the total tor Rockingham. In Augusta County, there are
two tracts. We started a different series of numbers in each county, and the tract
I hav1 just spoken of is Tract No. l in Augusta County, but Tract 326 and 326-A
are in Rockingham County. Tract 1-A in Augusta County contains 393 acres, valued
at $1016.50, the timber is valued at $300.00, or a total value of $1316.50.
A tract of land in Albemarle County, No. 219 in Albemarle, consists of 68 acres,
With a value of $102.00, land value only; there are no timber values and no improvements on the Albemarle side. In Green County, No. 136, we found 644 acres,
with a value of $681.00. The total acreage in the tour counties is 21,103 acres.
The total land value in all the counties is $30,503.00. The total timber value
tor all the counties is $4,517.00. The total agreed improvement values in all
the counties is ta50.oo. The total value of the tract is $35,605.50, ot course
with the difference between $585.00 and the price agreed upon for the buildings
ta5o.oo; the increased value, with improvements, making $35,870.50.
Q,.
Now, Mr. Marsh, you have testified quite at length; that is, your answer has
been quite lengthy; I have not followed it exactly. My question waa what, in
your opinion, based upon your knowledge of the land under consideratio n, is its
fair market value for all purposes tor which it is reasonably adapted?
A. $35,870.50.
Q.
Including the area in all counties?
Q,.
Now, for purposes of the Coounisaion, or rather the Board of Appraisal Commissioners tor Rockingham County, I will ask you once more to state what, in your opinion is the fair, cash, market value of so much of the tract or tracts as lie
w1 thin Rockingham County?
A. A total of $31,925.50.
Q,.
And those values are mede up of land values and timber values only?
A. And improvements.
Q,.
And improvements, meaning buildings?
Q,.
In estimating the timber, what did you include?
A. In estimating the timber everything was estimated as saw timber above ten
inches DBH; below ten inches DBH, with the exception or pine - the young stuff .went with the soil. That is the custom, the stuff under ten inches is not considered merchantabl e anywhere except in unusual cases.
Q,.
When you use the words "went with the soil", do you mean that you gave the land
a higher value because of it, because it had some young growing timber on it or
A. Everything.
A. Buildings, yes.
-83-
�because it had timber on it smaller than ten inches across the stump, breast
high?
A. Certainly. It the land had no timber on it, instead of being placed as
two dollar land or a dollar and a half land or four dollar land, it would be
placed as t'itty cent land. If all the timber was gone, of course, the land
value would be much lower than the value assigned.
Q.
I see you have there only two acres of grazing land. Counsel for claimants in
their examination of the preceding witness, Mr. Stoneburner, indicated that
there must be some mistake. Have you any explanation to make of this?
A. No, that is all there is. Of course, the fact he was trying to bring out
was as to its potential grazing value. The reason no potential value has been
fixed is because it is a poor grade of grazing land and it was not considered
worth the time and trouble it would take to enclose it.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. WALKE:R:
Q. Mr. Marsh, with reference to that last answer you gave with reference to the
value of this land that had some timber on it, which you said was put at $1.50
tor the reason that it had timber thereon under ten inches in diameter, waist
high -- I s that what I understood you to say?
A. That has an affect on the value assigned to that type of land. If you have
slope type of land with a normal growth of young stuff on it, it would class
as lend worth $2.50. If it had no young stuff, it might be reduced to $2.00
or $1.50 or lower.
Q.
~.
If there is some young timber on it and it is classed as $1.50 land, isn't that
land suitable for grazing land?
A. No; an old steer could probably keep from starving to death in there, but it
is not a grazing proposition.
What would be necessary to make a grazing proposition out of it?
A. You have got to get the timber off and then t'ight to keep the brush down,
and aside tram that, the land is so rockY; it is the rockiest piece of land
of that size I have seen in the State of Virginia. A goat might make a living
there but it would take a good goat at that; but, as:lhr as a potential grazing
proposition is concerned, it is not there. There may be a very little of it
that,it cleared up and properly cared tor for a number of years would .produce
a sod, but, on the other hand, where you find an acre of that, you find hundreds
ot acres of nothing but rock.
Q..
Does your reference that a good goat might make a living on it apply to this
land down near Grottoes and adjoining the land owned by Mr. Roadcap end other
people down there who have bought land trom the Mount Vernon survey?
A. It can be- seen otf there. If there we.a any other land down there capable
of ma.king good :!'ams, it would probably have been sold off too. You have a
residue of land there not good for agridultural purposes; land adjoining this
land on top of the mountain in Green County.
Q..
Were they not of the same character?
A. No sir, you have up there on that land a broad nat top with a good soil,
capable of producing a good sod, and there is a good sod on those tracts, but
over on the west side of the mountain you have rocks and cliffs and an entirely
different proposition.
-84-
�Q.
But doesn't this land extend on the east side of the mountain?
A. Yes, it doea, but it n.a not similar at all; it was steep lend, and that ia
the reasa:i it had not been fenced ott. Those people would have done that too
if it had been good for anything. That is the only reason it is still in the
Alexander tract.
Q.
Well, isn't the land there in the various runs, the one called Deep Run, isn't
that land valuable in that locality?
A. For what?
Q. To be cultivate d.
A. No sir. It could be cleared and cultivate d, of course, but look at those people
who are trying to farm up there now -- look what they are up against. If they
would try to make a living up there on those farms on which they are living
and which have cane out of the Alexander tract and other tracts up there, they
would get pretty hungry before the winter 1• over. Most of them have other outside work t~ do. They live there and get part of their living from the place.
Q.
There are hundreds of people living there who have lived there for many years.
A. And a good many have moved out because they can't make a 11ving, and 1 f you
can find anyone up there that can make a 11ving from their land, you can do
better than I can. The only reason they are living there is because they can't
ac.cumulate enough to get away from there. They realize they got skinned and
are going to get out as soon as they can, and some of them have gotten out,
abandoned their houses and everythin g else.
BY MR. TAVENEB: I object to the witness's staten:ent s in so far as they refer to
his surmises as to why people may leave their hanes or what they may be expected
to do, as it calls for a mere matter of opinion by him concernin g matters of which
he has not qualified as an expert, and concernin g which he is not in a position to
testify in this case.
Q.
You say that a great many of th.ose mountain people all feel that they paid too
much for their land and are moving out?
A. I em speaking of that development around Grottoes, and they are moving out
of the mountains too, .as tar as that is concerned .
Q.
I was speaking of those people up on the mountains particula rly.
A. A great many more people have lived in the mountains than do today. A great
many are neglectin g their homes and fanns and moving away. They have been doing
it tor twenty years.
Q.
And it has become rather precipito us during the past two or three years?
A. No sir, that condition has been going on for the past twenty years.
Q.
How do you lmow?
A. Because I have been working in the Blue Ridge for that length of time.
Q.
Since you have been telling about what you have heard A. I was telling what I have seen.
Q,.
But you did mention sanething you have heard.
A. I don't recall that I did.
Q.
Haven't you heard that a great many were not going to improve their homes because the State was going to take them from them?
A. They have not been improving them tor the past twenty years.
-85-
7"6
�Q.
Isn't it a tact that they are not ma.king any improvements to their homes and
are trying to establish their homes elsewhere because they have an idea that
the State ot Virginia is going to go up and take their homes tor nothing?
BY MR. A™STRONG: Question objected to as no answer could be given thereto to
assist the Board ot Appraisal Commissioners in ascertaining the fair, cash, market
value of the tract ot lend under consideration.
BY MR. WALKER: Counsel, in reply to this, states that the witness has endeavored
to impress the Commission with the idea that those mountain people .were leaving
their homes tor the reason that they tound it hard to make a living due to the condition of the land and surroundings. Having gone into this voluntarilly, we think
we have a right to show other reasons tor their leaving their homes, and I think
this Commission is entitled to.. know all the reasons that are being given, if any
one is to be given.
BY MR. AmBI'R)NG: In reply it can only be said that it would side track trom the
issue, namely, the tair, cash, market value of the laild under consideration. It
we are to take testimony and ascertain why people are leaving their homes, we
Will be here until the middle of next April.
BY MR. WALKER: In reply to that, it is only _fair to say that we ought to stay
until the middle of next April rather than deprive people of their homes and their
property without extending to them their inalienable and constitutional rights;
that the COJll!liasioners, as tair minded men, have undertaken this duty, and are not
reatri cted as to the length of time in which they may perform, so the counsel
interjecting theanount of time here has nothing to do with the question.
BY MR. AR.m!'RONG: Counsel here asks Counsel tor claimant if it is to be considered that the objection just interposed to the testimony of the witness in this respect shall be further considered or if it is decided to question him further,regardlesa of the objection.
BY MR. WALKER: Counsel states that if the witness attempts to give his personal
reasons as to why people are leaving their mountain homes, then we have a right to
show that they are leaving them for other reasons than those given by him.
Q,.
~-
Mr. Marsh, have you made any inquiry as to the sale value of the land in the
mountain adjacent to and adjoining the Mount Vernon tract?
A. Yes.
What did those people generally ask per acre for their land?
A. I thought you were talking about the sale value. Do you mean the asking
value or the sale value?
The value placed upon it by the omer.
A. You mean the price at which property changed hands or the value of the
property?
~. What did those mountain people ask for their property?
A. Anywhere from forty, fifty, thirty, seventy-five, a hundred; any price
you might name would get some ot them.
Q.
Are you talking about tams or mountain lands?
A. I am talking about mountain lands.
-86-
•
�Q. Have you gone far enough as to find out what that land has been sold for, as
between individuals?
A. We went into that very carefully; in fact, get every sale made in the county
for the pest five years in that particular neighborhood before we began work.
~. Tell ,me as nearly as you can as to sales made there within the past five years;
what was paid.
A. I can't just tell you those things, but we have done that in every county
we have worked in, and we have that recor4.
Q. Will you file that record?
A. I think we have 1-t available so that we can file itJ I would be very glad
to do it.
Q,. Would you f'11e that record during this meeting of t he Commissioners?
A. Our records are in Front Boyal, and I don't expect to be there for several
days.
BY MR. AfMSTRONG: I can file that record before this Commission presents ita report.
BY MR. WALKER: Would you mind presenting it to Counsel for claimants before filing it?
BY MR. ARA.STRONG: I will undertake the responsibility for that.
And further this deponent saith not.
MR. WILLIAM SHIFFLM', a witness of
as follows:
law:f.'ul.
age. being duly sworn, deposes and says
A. J. W. Shifflet.
Q,.
What is your name?
Q.
Where do you live?
A. McGab.eysville, East Rockingham County.
Q.
What is you:r age?
A. Fifty-tour.
Q.
How far do you live trom the .Alexander tract of land now under consideration?
A. About four or five mileso
~.
Have you ever been over that tract, and if so, about how many times?
A. I couldn't tell you how many times; I have taken care of it tor fire; I
. have hunted over it, and I have been on it in different ways, and I wouldn't
like to say how many times.
Q.
I understand you to say you have been on it a great many times?
A. Yes air.
Q.
Did you go upon it in the company of Mr. Jack Shifflet,as an employee of the
State Commission on Conservation and Development,for the purpose of ascertaining any value it had?
-87-
�A. I went on it with Mr. Jack Shifflet as a line guide to estimate the kind
of timber on there.
Q.
Did anyone ask you to go?
A. Mr. Marsh.
Q.
Were you paid tor doing it?
A. Yes.
Q.
You are talking about Mr.
A. Yes.
Q.
What did you find on that tract, and what value did you assign to what you
:found?
A. As to the value, right now I don't believe a man could handle it at any
value.
Q.
What are you talking about, land or timber?
A. Timber I was talking about.
Q.
What do you know about timber, anyway?
A. Well, I worked for different people up until 1910, and in 1910 I went to
work for myself in staves, bark and lumber until 1924. In 1924 I quit. I have
cruised quite a lot of timber since 1924; seventeen thousand acres tor the
Boller heirs in 1925, and I cruised 2800 acres tor Mr. Thomas, the c. & w.
Railroad superintend ent, in Massanutten Mountain.
Q,.
You say you have cruised timber; in what years do you refer to?
A. In 1925 a big tract over here in West lbokinghem, and in 1930 I cruised
that down here tor Mr. Thomas, and it was in this year that I did the work
for Mr. Marsh.
Q,.
Did you ever cut timber and haul the same to saw mills to be manufacture d?
A. Yes.
Q.
s. H. Marsh,
who is Park Supervisor?
For yourself or tor others, or tor both?
A. Both.
Q,.
Then you know something about what it costs to out timber and haul it t•
mills?
A. Yes.
Q.
In what mountains?
Q,.
How tar from the Alexander tract?
A. Something 1.ike eight or ten mil es.
Q.
Did you ever purchase standing timber and have it sawed and placed on the
market and sold?
A. I have.
Q,.
Then you are familiar with what it costs to out timber and put it on the
market, are you not?
A. Yes ..
Q.
Are you familiar with the market prices now or within the past six months
for different classes of timber?
A. No, I have not been in since 1924, and I have not kept up with the prices.
They tell me what they are buying for, that is the only way.
A. Mostly in Massanutten Mountain.
-as-
�BYMR. TAVENER: The Witness, by his own statement, has shown that he is not qualified to testify on prices, as he admits that since 1924 he has been out of the
business, so objection is made to any further testimony by this witness on the
prices ot timber.
BY MR. AlNSl'RONG: In reply, e. man may have never been in the business and may have
never seen a stick or timber, e.nd yet may know the prices.
BY MR. TAVENER: In answer thereto, 1he witness has stated that he did not know.
If he does not know, he is not called upon to conjecture upon what prices are.
Q.
you know the range of prices of the character of timber growing on the
Alexander tract?
A. Mr. Funkhouser bought good white pine at $1.50 a thousand, and they offe-redit to him in Grottoes at $1..50.
Do
BY MR. TAVENER:
A. Yes.
Do
you know that of your own personal knowledge?
Q.
~ I understand that the gentlemen referred to did not buy at that price?
A. He did.
Q.
At Grottoes, tor that price?
A. No, trom a fellow from Brandywine, West Virginia, for $1.50.
Q.
What kinds of timber and how many thousands of teet did you estimate there to
be on the Alexander tractnot land in Rockingham County, e.s a result of your
cruise of such timber?
A. Most of that timber is pine, some hardwood, but most of it is pine, and I
made it in Two Mile Run fifty thousand; in One Mile Run, :titty thousand; in
Big Run, one million two hundred thousand; in Lewis Lower Run around the base
of the mountain, seventy-five thousand; in Lewis Upper Run, seventy-five thousand; in Deep Run, forty-thousand; Brown's Gap, two hundred fifty thousand;
Miller "Run or Swamp Run, seventy thousand. I t I did not make any mistake, in
all one million eight hundred eighty thousand.
Q.
Did you attempt to classify that number of' teat as to species?
A. No sir, I did not; the most of it, I would say, is pine.
Q. How much of the whole would you say, according to your best idea, is pine?
A. Well, I would think three-fourths of it is pine.
Q.
What is the smallest sized tree you took into consideration?
A. I think you would have to cut about all of it to make anything. The hardwood, you could cut ten inches and up, and the pine you would have to get
about all of it to make anything.
Q.
So you took into consideration practically all of the pine that could be used?
A. Most of it, big enough to make anything.
Q,.
Do111 to six inches across the butt?
~.
As to the other species, what was the minimum sized tree you took into consideration?
A. Well, ten inches.
A. About that.
�Q.
Ten inches across the butt?
Q.
Did you give any stumpage value to this one millio n eight hundre d eighty
thousan d feet, or not?
A. Yes sir, I did. The best of it is in Big Run. I don't think a man could
hardly work it now, but a man might, and I put that at two dollars , and the
other at a dollar and a half on the stump, togethe.r with Swamp Run and around
up there, take six hundre d cords of wood that could be made into pine staves
.
A. Yes.
cross EXIMINATION BY MR. TAVENm:
Q.
Q.
Mr. Shiffl et, when did you purcha se any timber and work it yourse lf?
A. From 1912 to 1920.
Where --
A. Two tracts I worke4 myself , one tract I worked the extrac t off myself ; one
tract we made staves out of, Mr. Hurd and I, and anothe r tract I sawed it off
in timber myself .
Q.
Q.
You say there were two tracts that you p~rcha sed between 1912 and 1920?
A. Yes.
From whom?
A. G. T. Hopkin s, and the other from --
Q.
Q.
Just a minute ; how many acres?
A. A hundred and fifty acres in the Greenb riar tract, and the other a little
over four hundre d.
From whom was that purchas ed?
A. J. L. Hopkin s.
Q.
That has been the extent of your experie nce?
A. I purchas ed some from c. L. Hedric k.
Q.
When was that?
Q.
When you purcha sed that, how did you purcha se it?
A.
Q.
A. In 1910.
By the boundary; looked over it and bought just what was on it.
You have had no recent experie nce in buying and cutting ?
A. Not since 1920; that was the last I bought myselfo
Q.
What did you pay, on the hundred and fifty acre tract, for that timber on the
stump?
A. Six hundred dollars .
Q.
Well, did you buy it accord ing to the number of thousan d feet?
A. I tried to, yes, but I didn't get quite as much as I expecte d to.
Q.
How much were ypu paying a thousan d?
A. I aimed to pay $2.50 a thousan d, and it cost me about $3.25.
Q.
Because you misjudg ed the amount of \imber?
A. A little .
-90•
TIO
�Q. In 1920, what did you pay for that a thousand?
A. I bought that the same way, but I didn't lose anything on that. It cost me
$2.90 a thousand.
Q. What was the total you paid on that five hundred acres?
A. I don't just remember how much that was.
Q. Did you buy it by the thousand feet on the stump?
A. $2.90 a thousand.
Q. That is what you were paying for it in all these cases?
A. No, in one I paid six hundred .dollars for, that cost me $2.75.
Q. In one case of the hundred and fifty acres, you cruised that timber and paid
a lump sum for it; in the other two cases, you bought it by the thousand feet?
A. Yes.
Q. You made a miscalculation on your first effort and you never tried it afterward?
A. Well, sir, I wasn't afraid to; there wasn't any more to try for.
Q. On this Roller tract that you cruised, I think there was quite a difference between your estimate on that timber and the estimate by the people?
A. I think so, yes sir, a good bit.
Q.
So they took an average tract and cut 1t off to see just how much it would make?
A. I don't think so.
Q.
And your estimate was just one-halt of the emount of timber on there?
A. No, I don't think that is right. I don't know just how much the gentleman cut
off; I couldn't say that because I didn't measure it, but I do know th.e gentleman
went with us to help cruise it a day and a half, but how much he cut off,I don't
know, but I know close to what his estimate was. There was quite a bit of difference between his estimate and our•s.
Q. I understand that you went with Mr. Jack Shifflet in cruising on this property?
A. Yes.
Q. And I understand that when he made up his report, he called you on the telephone
and got your O.K. to that report?
A. Certainly, there ain't nothing to that.
you not recall Mr. Jack Shiffiet testifying that he signed your name to the
report and that he called you over the telephone----A. As to its being alright to sign my name to the report, that is a different
thing; you said didn't I take Mr. Jack Shiftlet's report over the telephone, and
I did not.
~ . Do
Q. Did you make your report separate and distinct fran Mr. Jack Shittlet's?
A. We worked together.
Q.
You also heard Mr. Smith testifying as to the aum,.er of thousand feet on these
various tracts. Did you know what those amounts were before you reduced your
figures to writing?
A. Absolutely I did not know.
771
�A. (cont'd.) I couldn't tell you today, because I was sick that day and didn't
hear but very little.
Q.
I would like you to explain to the Commission why your estimate happened to be
the same to the exact foot on five of the eight tracts as that made by Mr.Smith.
A. I can't do that. I can't tell what Mr. Smith's was like, so I can only testify as to what I seen myself. I never knew what Mr. Smith's estimate was.
Q. Mr. Jack Shifflet testified, according to my recollection, that he made his calculations on the basis of ten inches in diameter?
A. Possibly he did.
Q.
And you have arrived at exactly the same figures, and you said you measured
down to six inches in diameter?
A. I said I would have to cut it to six inches to get that amount of lumber out
of it, expecially this six hundred cords up here, I think I cut it down to six
inches and maybe below six inches.
Q.
Then your original statement signed by Mr. Jack Shifflet and signed on your behalf, is wrong?
A. I don't think so.
Q.
Well now, you .are stating that it is necessary to go to six inches to get it;
one or the other is wrong.
A. I think you would have to go to six inches on that pine to get six hundred
cords of wood on Swamp llun.
~. You just went in there, and, according to your eye, estimated what you thought
was the amount of timber there?
A. Yes, sir, I didn't strip any of it.
Q.
You did it by the same method that you looked over the hundred and fifty acre
tract back in 1912?
A. Yes, but that tract was a little different than this.
Q.
You did it the same way you did the Roller tract?
Q.
Do you think you are any more nearly correct on this than on those two?
A. I think I was pretty nearly correct on the Boller tract. The jury must have
thought so; they gave a verdict of three thousand dollars, and that com.pared
with our estimate.
A. Yes sir.
RE-DIRJ!X)T EXAMINATION BY MR. AIMSI1RONG:
Q,.
Mr. Shifflet, counsel for claimants have insinuated that you made a "tremendous
mistake in cruising what is known as the Roller tract. I would be glad ifyou
would tell us all about it here; what is it? Did you cruise a tract known as
the Roller tract and make a report on it?
A. Yes.
Q.
Was it cruised by anyone else?
A. By Mr. A. M. Turner and, I think, Mr. Zack Turner and different people; Mr.
Lynn, possibly, and I couldn't tell you just who was on it.
Q.
Who did you cruise for?
Q.
And Mr. Turner?
A. Mr• .Anderson.
A. The Roll er people.
The Andersen people were being sued ·ror negotiating a sale
-92-
�to Mr. Ingle.
~-
Was there any final determinati on ot the case as to whose cruise was nearest
correct?
A. The jury must have taken our estimate as being nearly correct, because they
did give a vt.rdict ot three thousand.
Q,.
Now. regardless of what the verdict might have been, wasn't a tract cut oft
there and an eatimate taken from that?
A. I just said I don't know at all; I haven't been on the tract since that.
I don't know.
Q.
It you don't know the details ot that, don't you recall that the way it turned
out, there was just twice the amount ot timber on the tract as what you cruised and estimated?
A. I don't know that, no sir.
Q..
Didn't Mr. Turner, right here, cruise that timber for Mr. Roller instead ot
Mr. Anderson?
A. He cruised a day and a halt with us, and he said he would come back, but
he didn't come back to work with us. Who he cruised it for, I don't know.
BY MB• .AaJisrRONG:
Q,.
Mr. Shi:ttlet, as a. matter of fact, when your own interest was involved when
you bought the hundred and fifty acre tract and cruised it yourself, it you
made any mistake at all it was against your interest, was it not?
A. It was a little against my interest, yes sir.
And further this deponent saith not.
MR. C. L. GAYNOR, a witness of lawful age, being duly sworn, deposes and says as
follows:
c.
L. Gaynor.
Q,.
What are your initials?
A.
Q..
Mr. Gaynor, where do you reside?
A. Elkton, Rockingham County, Virginia.
Q,.
Do
Q..
What is your business or occupation?
A. Making staves; manufacturi ng staves.
Q.
How long have you been so engaged?
A. Well, around thirty years, with the exception of a year or two.
Q.
Where have you been so engaged within that period?
A. First in Loudon County, near Harpers Ferry end Leesburg, a place called
A. Fifty-seven .
you mind stating your age, sir?
-93-
�Round Hill. I was working there in 1899 or 1898 I reckon. I will say 1899.
From that time on at various places in Virginia. I worked there around four
and a halt years.
Q.
Well, to shorten the examinati on as much as I can, how long have you been
engaged in the manufactu ring ot staves for yourself?
A. About nine years.
Q.
What kind of staves have you made and do you make?
A. Apple barrel staves; nothing else but apple and lime barrel staves.
Q.
Have you been
tract of land
and ascertain
A. Yes sir, I
Marsh.
employed by Mr. Marsh, the Park Superviso r, to go upon the
now under considera tion, commonly called the Alexander tract,
the value of the stave wood on that tract?
was asked to estimate some of the timber on this tract by Mr.
Q.
you
He said he would pay/for it ?
Q.
Did you go?
Q.
Tell the Commission what you found?
A. Well, the first day we went up --
Q.
A. Yes.
A. Yes.
When you say "we", who do you refer to?
A. Mr. Ma:bsh, Mr. Will Shifflet and Mr. Stoneburn er. We went up to the top
of the mountain last Saturtlay and came back, end, ot course, there is some
pine up there, but it was scattered and I didn't estimate that at all. There
was no stave job in there. We came on back and went up black rock by that
old hotel; we were there a while and came back and went through this piece
of pine and looked over it. Ot course,! couldn't estimate it without going
through it, and on Monday I got in it, and I got :f'ull of it too, but we walked in there nearly all day, trom about nine until about three or four. When
I walked out, I said, "About a million staves"; that is what I think; I don't
know, but that is lllat I think.
Q.
In the bunch of pines that you went through?
Now listen, that million staves, it would take some of that
stutt over ten inches. All that was in there, we measured down to six inches.
A. Yes sir.
Q.
And your estimate was that there was one million staves?
A. Yes; something like eight hundred cords; maybe a little more or a little
less.
~.
Q.
Now state whether or not that particula r section that you went through where
you found those pines was the section known as the section at the toe of the
mountain, frequentl y referred to by my triend, Mr. Tavener, here; kind of
nat land?
A. That was the place, yes sir.
Did you find any other stave propositi ons up there?
A. No, I didn't see any other place to set up a mill.
I forget the names of
th~ different places; that was the first time I was in there. I was up Big
:Run too, and we came down and looked in One Mile Run I think it was.
Q.
But you didn't find any stave propositi ons up there?
A. No.
-94-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ~ - - - - - - - - - - - - 11~
�Q.
Are you familia r with what it costs to cut timber and haul it to a stave mill
and
manufa cture it into staves?
A. Well, the last I went to work over at Hopkins Spring s -- the first that
tor myself - that has been nine or ten years ago. When I first went there, I made
agreed to make staves on shares , you unders tand. When we worked that way, Mr.I
Shiffle t cut the wood. We worked that way a year or two and Mr. Hoftme.n wanted
to drop out. I asked him what he wanted a thousan d tor it, and he said a dollar
a thousan d for it. I got that timber cut then, and I think it cost me $2.25
cut it and mill it a thousan d. Well now, that is about as near as I can come to
to
it; you see that is by the thousan d. You see it would take about thirtee n hundre
d
of that to make a cord of wood. I paid a dollar a thousan d and $2.25 to get
it
to
mill.
Q.
What would be your idea as to what it would cost to cut and saw and move off
land to Elkton this body of pines that you have testifi ed to on this Alexan the
der
tract?
BY MR. TAVENER: I object to any testimo ny about moving any of this timber trom
the
Mount Vernon tract to Elkton .
A. I wouldn 't move it to Elkton .
Q.
Q,.
Where is 'the neares t place it could be moved to to be sawed up into staves?
A. They would have to take it to the river, as dry as it is up in that hollow
now.
What river, and how far from the place?
A. I don't know.
Q,.
Have you got eny idea in the world of the value of these million staves standin
g
on the stump?
A. I can tell you this; for better timber , I am paying $4.16 at Elkton
.
Q,.
What, in your opinion , if you are able to give an opinion , is the fair, cash,
market value of the body ot pine which you have just testifi ed to, standin g
on
the stump, tor stave purpos es?
BY MR. TAVENER: I object to the questio n because the witnes s has plainly indica
ted
that he knows ve-ry little of the value in this particu lar section ; and, if
the
witness states that he does know the value, he is entitle d to answer the questio
if he does not know, he should not answer. The witnes s is not called upon to n, end
make a
mere guess as to what these values are.
By the w1 tness: He kept talking about hauling this timber to Elkton . Noone
would haul
it to Elkton .
BYMR • .AIMSrRONG: I withdraw all questio ns about Elkton .
A. You couldn 't give it to me until next year, because I couldn 't move it until
next year. No man could work 1t this coming year.
~.
You mean the value ot staves is so low?
A. Yes sir, that is what I mean, and I have six boys to run my mill too.
What, in your opinion , is the fair, cash, market value ot the one million staves
standin g in these pine trees?
A. I will say fifty cents; I put it at eight hundre d cords; that is my opinion
.
Q.
From six inches on up?
Q.
A. Yes sir.
115
�Q.
And eight hundred cords, in your opinion, '°uld be worth fifty cents a cord on
the stump?
A. Yes.
Q.
A
Q.
And that, in your opinion, would be a fair, cash, market value?
Q.
You stated that you purchased staves at a dollar a thousand, and you stated
that there were thirteen hundred staves to a cord. Do you not know that the
standard price from the government for stave wood on the stump is a dollar a
cord?
A. No, I don't know it; some days it is worth two dollars a cord on the stump,
and sane days not worth titty cents.
Q.
If it is close to a railroad, it is worth more than if it is back fourteen or
fifteen miles from the railroad?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
you not know that stave wood men are now buying stave wood out of North
Mountain in Shenandoah County, fourteen miles from the railroad, for a dollar
a cord on the stump?
A. I do know.
Q.
If that is correct, then wouldn't you alter your figures?
A. It ain't a good stave proposition up there. This stuff' up here isn't fit
for staves.
Q,.
What sort ot pine do you use?
A. About the same as this, fox tail, rattlesnake pine.
Q,.
Then you put on the unsuspecting fruit man stuff that isn't worth anything?
A. What do you 7.jean?
Q.
You said some of the same as that up there?
A. Some of them.
A. Yes.
value of four hundred dollars?
A. Yes.
Do
Q. How long did you spend in there?
A. I was in the~e six or seven hours altogether. The first evening I was up the
road, and I got out and walked up the road a little way.
Q.
How much time did you spend cruising around in that Mount Vernon tract?
A. About six hours, once.
Q.
How much time altogether?
Q.
How much time, altogether, did you spend cro!sing around in the woods?
A. I imagine about eighteen or twenty hours; I don't know.
Q,.
Did you go up Big Run as much as a mile?
A. We went up seven or eight miles from where the car broke down on ue down
at the foot of the mountain. It wouldn't go any :further.
. A. I don't know.
Q. This stave wood at the toe of' the mountain that you have described as being a
million staves, is just about two miles from Grottoes, is it not?
~ ~ - - ~ - - - - - - - - - - ~ ~ - -..!]7h
�A. I don't know; I didn't pay much attentlo n to that; I wouldn' t like to say.
~.
The eight hundred cords that you estimate d, I want to be certain I understa nd
you, is the pine from six inches up to ten inches?
A. All that is there.
Q.. All that is there?
A. Yes.
A. Yes; sane stuff there
Q.
Is there anything there over ten inches?
t~rteen inches and fourteen inches.
Q..
That is pretty nice pine,is it?
A. Some people might call it nioe pine; I would call it old burr pine.
Q..
You stated it is fair pine?
Q.
How many staves are there to a thousand feet of lumber?
A. Well, I had that kind of figurei out, but I have forgotte n.
A. Part of it.
And further this deponen t saith not.
MR. sroNEBUHNER recalled .
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
You were testifyi ng, in your examina tion in chief, about the values of several
tracts of land that were bought for the Shenandoah Nationa l Forest. Do you not
recall that the state attempte d to buy land in which Mr. Luther Brill was interested, and made him e.n offer of two or three dollars an acre, and in the condemnation proceed ings which resulted , the jury brought in a verdict of thirty dollars an aore, those lands being located in the mountain section of Shenandoah
County?
BY MR • .ARJSl'RONG: Question objected to because it is irreleva nt and it does not state
what elements of damage or of value were handed to the jury or to the apprais al commission ers or whoever ascertai ned the thirty dollar value claimed , and it is conceded
that as much as a thousand dollars an acre has been awarded certain land owners in
certain condemnation proceed ings, and even more.
BY MR. TAVENEB: Of course, the question will be qualifie d to the extent that it refers to mountain lands that were being condemned for nationa l forest purpose s, and
in further answer to the objectio n, I desire to -state that the mare fact that a man
is Willing to let his forest land go for a value that the Forestry Department may
fix on it is not always a true standard of value for that land because of the fact
that e. condemnation proceed ing is an expensiv e and troubles ome matter, and where a
man refuses to accept what the government thinks, from their standpo int, is an advantageo us price, and then, when the matter is set for judicial determi nation as to
the value of the land, then the result of that condemnation proceed ing ia the beat
evidence of the value of that land; and, inasmuch as the state has seen fit to ask
Witness es on several differen t occasion s about the purchase of lands general ly tor
nationa l forest purpose s, we feel that this question is not only admissa ble but one
of importan ce, and one from which this Commission is entitled to the informa tion•
777
�BY MR. Amm'RONG: It is universally conceded that the purchase price agreed upon between a willing seller,who wants to sell,and a willing buyer, who wants to buy, of a
tract of land is about the best evidence obtainable as to its value, and so tar as
the evidence which has been introduced on behalf ot the petitioner here today as to
purchases of land in the neighborhood of the land under consideration, conforming
generally to the type and class of land under consideration, it is insisted that it
should have a persuasive innuence w1 th the Board ot Appraisal. Commissioners as to
the value of the Alexander land. It the land ot Brill is of the same type or approximately the same type as the Alexander land, then it is perfectly proper evidence to
introduce testimony as to what it brought. However, the value fixed by a Board ot
Appraisal. Commissioners or by a jury on a tract ot land of a man who is unwilling to
sell can never be considered competent evidence to be introduced as to the value of
some other tract of land sought to be condenm.ed. And, certainly, when the land is
described merely as ?.u-. Brill's land in Frederick County, without giving its location, desirability, for what purposes reasonably adapted, and saying that the Commissioners valued it at thirty dollars, cannot be evidence that would in any wise
enable this Board of Appraisal Commissioners to arrive at a fair valuation of the
Alexander property.
BY MR. TAVENER: In further reply to the objection raised, counsel desires to state
that this witness has testified that he has set the valuation on these various lands
in the National. Forest area according to a scale, and the additional purpose of this
question is to show that when his valuations were under fire by dur process of law,
they have, at least on these occasions, been greatly increased in value from that
which he· gave. The valuation placed on the Luther Brill tract was not far in excess
of that fixed on the Mount Vernon tract, and if this Yd. tness6s honest valuation,
which he gave on the Luther Brill tract was tound to be erroneous and increased under
du• proeess of law, then it is very material evidence that the witness may be in error
as to the valuation which he placed on this tract.
A. I was not a witness in that condemnation case; neither did I exemine the
Brill tract. I em familiar with it's location, but had nothing to do with it~
valuation originally.
Q.
Is it not a fact that the valuation placed according to the scale or the Forestry Department of two or three dollars was raised in the condemnation proceedings
to thirty dollars?
BY MR. AHA3l'RONG: Question objected to because even it this witness were able to
state, the evidence is immaterial.
A. I have no personal knowledge of that.
Q.
I Will ask you if you are familiar with a tract of land, the exact name of which
I do not have at the moment, and which the government sought to condemn at a
price of a dollar and a half to two dollars an acre, which valuation was conteated in the condElllllation proceedings and upon which a verdict of between five and
six dollars was rendered, this land being located in the back end of Shenandoah
County or at the edge of Frederick County in the Cedar Creek section, possibly
ten miles from the railroad?
BY MR. A.IMSTRONG: Question objected to because incompetent for reasons stated in the
objection states to foregoing questions.
A. I was a witness and went on a tract of approximately one thousand acres in
that immediate locality, for which there were two claimants. One agreed to sell
tor two dollars an acre, the other objected; a commission was appointed; the
case was heard at Lynchburg, and the timber and soil value was not contested•
Evidence on minerals only was introduced and the jury awarded a verdict ot
-98-
. 11'&
�three dollars. That is near the county line. Your father was attorney in the case.
BY MR • .ilMSI'RONG: Answer excepted to for the foregoing reasons and asked to be
stricken outo
A. (cont'd.) I can't say that that is the same tract or not; I think the Bearpone Lumber Company was the claimant.
By Mr. Tavener: That is not the same.
By the Witness: That is the only case in Cedar Creek upon which I was a witness.
By Mr. Tavener: I am going to ask Mr. Marsh to furnish me w1 th a statement of the
condemnation proceedings by the Forestry Department; that is, a statement of the
names and the amounts which were awarded. Can you do that trom the files here in
Harrisonburg?
BY MR. AIMSTRCNG: Objection will be made to the introduction- ---BY MR. TAVENER: I em not asking him to introduce them; I em merely asking him it he
can furnish them. Can you do that, Mr. Marsh?
By Mr. Marsh: I cotikin't say. I think you could get than as easily as I could, because I have no more connection with them now than anyone else.
BY MR. AIMSTIDNG: Do you know how many acres there are in the Shenandoah National
Forest, or how many acres were acquired by the United States Government in the
Shenandoah National Forest?
A. Approximately halt a million acres in the Shenandoah National Forest.
~.
And what did it cost?
A. All the land approved tor purchase was $3.66, an average, and that actually
acquired was 3.66.
BYMR. TAVENER:
Q.
Mr. Stoneburner, any tracts that the government sought to purchase for $1.50 or
$2.00 an acre and which were contested as to amounts in the condemnation proceedings in wlich there was a return of five, six or even more dollars, and which were
not actually taken because of the price, would not be included in that?
A. That area is very small.
~.
But, the point is that those matters are not included in the average of $3.66 an
acre?
A. They are not.
And turther this deponent saith not.
-9977'f
�MB. A. M. TURNER, a witness of lawful age, being duly sworn, deposes and says as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TAVENER:
A. A. M. Turner.
Q.
What is your full name, Mr. Turner?
Q.
Where do you reside?
A. About three miles northwest of Broadway, Rockingham County.
Q.
What is your age?
Q.
What is your occupation, Mr. Turner?
A. It has been principally that of lumbering, farming and grazing.
Q.
What positions of a public nature have you held in Rockingham County, Mr. Tumer?
A. Well, my first public service that I have held was I was a school teacher, and
I was a member of the Board of Supervisors of Rockingham County tor Plains Disthe lands in Plains District
trict, and then I was appointed to
and I held that office until it was legislated out,for two successive tel!llS, and
I have, on two occasions, valued timber in which the govermnent was the purchaser.
Q.
When was that, Mr. Turner, and where was the land located, that you assessed or
appraised for the United States Governmmt?
A. In the Massanutten range of mountains and in the spurs of the Shenandoah
Mountain.
Q.
When did you first begin your work in lumber?
A. Well, I have been in the timber end lumber business tram the time I was twelve
years old. I commenced it about twenty-seven years ago for myself.
Q.
When you began as a small boy, in what way were you working?
A. I was working for my father, cleaning up grazing land, making rails and so on•
Q.
And from that time on you have been identified w1 th the lumber and timber industry?
A. Buying mountain land and cleaning up grazing land for myself, when I was about
twenty years old.
Q,.
Have you owned large tracts of timber lend yourself?
A. Yes sir, along w1 th my brothers, thirty-two hundred acres in the spurs of the
Shenandoah Mountain w1 thin the limits of Brock's Gap, and then on the Shenandoah
Mountain, I owned about sixteen hundred acres in different tracts adjoining each
other, maybe seventeen hundred, which I own sane of it yet, but have the options
to the government now.
Q.
What use did you make of those lands?
A. Principally tor grazing, I also raised some hardy crops such as buckwheat,
potatoes and so forth.
Q.
Have you cut the timber from any of those tracts?
A. Yes sir, I out the timber oft the thirty-two hundred acre tract of land.
Q.
Now, in addition to your ownership or timber lands in those two large tracts
that you have described, have you been engaged in buying up timber lands over
the northern part of Virginia in different counties, end if you have, in what
counties?
A. Seventy-two, pest.
-100750
�A. Well, I have been buying quite a number of tracts during these twenty-seven
years in Bockingham County, some in Augusta County, some in Shenandoah County
and Fairfax County and Albemarle County.
Q.
When you would buy this timber, tell the Commission in what way you would hat.dle
it.
A. Well, about a year ago I began to buy sane by the thousand on the stump, but
betore that I would go into a tract of timber and I would take an occular observation of it and estimate it in my mind how many thousand feet or lumber was there;
some of it I would get by strips, in which I would include a saw mill; how many
thousand feet I thought was there, then I would move my equipment in there, saw
mill engines, teams and so on, and cut it off.
~.
So your experience in occular observation of timber hes been made up by going in
and seeing that timber and sawing what you estimated?
A. Yes sir, I would estimate a piece of timber and buy it, cut it off and market
it, and go back and buy another piece the same way.
Q. Now, that business has been extended even to the purchase of farms in which you
would buy the farm to get the timber and then resell the farm?
A. Yes sir, we buy the tarm, which would cost as much as five or six thousand
dollars and then get the timber off and then sell the fann. I did that in Shenandoah County, Fairfax County and Albemarle County. In Albemarle County I didn't
manufacture it, but I cut it or:r.
Q.
Mr. Turner, is it not a fact that the best experience that a man can get in timber
is to estimate a piece ot timber, buy it, then cut it, au on his own account?
A. The best experience that a man can get is to estimate the timber, buy it and
pay for it, take his machinery in there, cut it and market it.
Q.
Now, over these twenty-seven years that you have been conducting your business
in that manner, have you acquired the ability to make an accurate and reasonable
estimation or the number of feet of lumber on a tract that you propose to buy or
investigate?
A. I would think so, sir. I remen:ber some cases I estimated in Fairtax County on
two hundred and fifty acres of land in about four hours that there was eleven
hundred thousand feet of timber on it, and I cut it oft and it made nearly twelve
hundred thousand. Sometimes it runs a little short and sanetimes a little more.
Q,.
You operate your own mills in that business?
•
A. Yes sir.
Q. How many mills would you operate at a time, ordinarilly?
A. About two mills in which I was the om.er, and then sometimes in what I was in
partnership with my brothers.
Q.
Do you mean by that that you would have as many as four mills under your supervision?
· A. Not at all times, but sometimes more than that •
•
Q.
Then you have lumbered from Fairfax County through to West Virginia?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Now, in addition to the very vital esperienoe that you had in manufacturing after
your own estimate of ltnnber, have you had experience in estimating lumber for other
people?
A. Yes.
-101-
�Q.
What bas been the nature of that experience?
A. Well, I have estimated a number of small tracts for people, and I estimated
the timber as to how many board teet it would make on an eighteen thousand acre
tract of land tor .the John Roller estate, and then again for the J.P.Houck
Company as to bark and lumber and also as to the value of the land, and a number
of smaller tracts, four, :five and six or eight hundred acres, maybe as high as
a thousand acres, parts of Shenandoah County, in the eastem part of Pendleton
County and so Ono
Q.
As a lllf1tter of fact, have you not estimated the timber practically from Hardy
County, West Virginia to Augusta County, Virginia?
A. Practically all of it, sane for myself and the rest tor others.
Q.
That land lies chiefly in Rockingham County and partly in Pendleton County?
A. Yes.
Q.
I understood you to state that you have been active in the purchase of this
timber land up until the last year?
A. The last year I have been cutting by the thousand, putting a price on the
land and timber, and I bought by the thousand, prl.ncipally in Shenandoah County.
Q.
Are you still manufacturi ng lumber to some extent?
A. The railroads are our principal markets; they got dull and I just stopped,
but I've got two mills setting down ready and have been manufacturi ng some with
the one mill in the last year.
Q. Mr. Turner, have you been employed by the claimants in this case to go upon the
Mount Vernon tract of real estate and estimate the timber on that tract?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Q.
How many days did you spend in your work on that property?
A. About twelve days in the :field in the work.
What time of year was it in w;hich you did that work?
A. Well, it was, I think, commenced on the 26th of November; I think .that is the
date we commenced, November 26th.
Q.
At that season of the year, of course, the leaves are off the trees?
A. Yes.
Q.
And it is much easier to do the work?
Q.
Will you compare the ease with which you can do the work of estimating timber
when the leaves are off the trees with doing the same work in August when the
leaves are on the trees an6 brush?
A. Well, you can cover as much again of the territory, you can see further in
the woods, and you can travel further and faster than you can in August .
Q.
Do you mean to state that one day's work in November is nearly as efficient as
two days work w•en the leaves are on the trees and brush?
A. It has been in my experience.
Q.
In this twelve days that you spent on this property, were you able to cover all
the timber that was on it?
A. I think not; I didn't get all over the boundaries where they told me to go.
-102-
A. Yes.
�Q. Are you in a position to testi:ty in definite terms about the amount of' timber
that you did see on this tract?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
The fact that you were not able, in twelve days, even in November, to cover all
the timber in this tract necessitates our pointing out on the map and describing a little in detail just where you went, so that it will be possible to
supplement your figures with the figures of' other witnesses or even the figures
of' the state as to places where you did not go. Before proceeding with that, however, will you tell the Connnission what method you used in estimating this
timber.
: .
A. I used an occular method and what you might call a strip method. I would go
in a location where there was saw timber. I would lay oft enough tor a saw mill
seat that would be profitable to bring in, and then I would estimate how much
was there, and then I would go on to the next point where there we.a saw timber
and estimate how much would be in that place, and so on.
Q. That is practically the same as a strip method?
A. Well, you might call it that, whilst I didn't take in territory that was
barren or practically barren; I would take the most denaly timbered places end
then I would fetch in this sparsely timbered territory.
Q.
Is that the same method of' estimating timber that you have used sudoesstully in
your own business for twenty-seven years?
A. Exactly.
Q.
And it is a type ot estimation that you have become experienced in because ot
your past experience; that is, you have become expert in that type of' estimation?
A. That is what I used eJ.l the time and I wouldn't use any other, because it
would be more accurate wt th me.
Q.
In measuring this timber, tell the Connnission how you measured it.
A. Ten inches, twelve inches from the ground are the size of the trees I took.
~.
The government witnesses have stated that they made their estimates on a measurement ten inches in diameter, breast high, which is four and a half feet from the
ground.
A. Yes sir.
Q.
There would naturally be some difference between their figures and your'
ot the different method of making those measurements?
A. Yes sir, I would get more trees than they would.
~.
ot fact, are there a large number of trees on this tract t ha w ld be
ten inches in d18Il!ter one foot above the ground and which would not b ten i nches
in diameter tour and a halt feet from the ground?
A. Oh yes, quite a lot. It is second growth timber, whilst there ia aam virgin
timber there yet. You would call it a cut over territory , and a g wth of timber
there that has been growing for perhaps seventy-five years. Yo1J. will find more
trees below ten inches than above ten inches.
Q.
Theretore, the system the state has used is unfair to th
rop rty owner in this
particular case because of' the size ot those t rees?
A. No, they wouldn't get all the thousand feet that
~ there.
Q.
Now, where did you begin your work in estimating the timber on this tract?
b o u.e
As a matter
-103-
�A. I commenced in Two Mile
Q.
am.
Will you tell the Commission how much timber you tound in Two Mile Run?
A. I t'ound two hundred thousand teet.
A. Yes sir.
Q. Two hundred thousand teet?
Q.
Now, it was called to your attention, at'ter you had made your estimate on Two
Mile Run that the Hill tract of five thousand acres, cut across the lower part
of this Run, and you were asked then to revise your fisures on that Run to shOII'
how much was in the Hill tract and deduct that tran your estimate?
A. Yes.
Q.
What deduction have you made for the timber that you found on the Hill tract?
A. You would have to take otf about forty thousand feet.
Q.
That would leave then a hundred end sixty thousand feet in Two Mile Run?
A. Yes.
Q,.
How many day's work, or how much time did you spend in Two Mile Rm?
A. One day.
Q.
Now, Two Mile Run is approximate ly how long?
A. Well, it is some tour or five miles; I didn't measure it.
Q.
Approximate ly how many acres of land are there in the territory drained by that
stream?
A. It I have the boundaries right, which I think I have, it would be about
twenty-five hundred acres.
Q.
What sort of stream is Two Mile :Run?
A. Well, it is a stream that has got lasting water in it. It has trout in it
e.nd the soil is of a sandy nature.
Q.
It is a stream that can be always depended upon to furnish water for saw mill
seats?
A. I would judge it would be. I am not acquenited with it more than I see the
trout in the stream, and that is a sure sign of lasting water; but, nevertheless, we can saw today about as cheap or perhaps cheaper with motor power than
with steam power. You can take a tractor in and saw and you don't have to have
much water.
Q,.
Speaking of this tract as a whole, are there roads in to these various tracts ot
timber which would make it accessible to market?
A. There have been roads there and used a great deal in the past, which would
take but little work to get in shape to get the products out right now.
Q.
Now, Mr. Shifflet, in his testimony, stated that it would be necessary to spend
fifty cents per thousand feet of timber in order to construct roads with which
to get the timber out of this area, saw timber -- Now, I am going to anticipate
your evidence here and state that if there is approximate ly tour million feet of
lumber on this property, and you would charge fifty cents a thousand to construct
roads, that would amount to two thousand dollars. Will you tell the Commission
whether any such sum as that would be necessary in order to get the timber from
oft this Mount Vernon tract?
A. It wouldn't for me.
-104-
�Q.
Q.
In your opinion, how could the timber from this tract of land be gotten out?
A. Well, it is reasonably accessable on account of the roads, on account of the
grades and the nearness to the railroad.
Where wculd your saw mill seats be located with reference to the roads?
the roads.
A. On
Q.
Then practically all ot the timber could be dragged to the saw mill seats and then
from the seats hauled out to market?
A. Yes sir, the roads are practically all in .the hollows and the timber is
mostly in the hollows or along against the sides not so tar up, and you would
have to have the saw mill seats in the hollows and there are the roads. You
drag your logs in there, and there would be the roads.
Q.
What •ould you consider to be a fair cost, regardless of the number of feet ot
timber on the Mount Vernon tract, that lfiould be required to build roads to get
this timber to market?
A. It would be to clean up the roads there, and there is one place in Big Run
would have to be bridged, but the way we would bridge that stream would be e.
rough way; we would just take logs and use them as sills and put two inch lumber
across it. It might cost two hundred dollars. We would out out brush, fill in
old holes, but we would stay on the old road bed, and the cost of it in all the
different .Buns, it might reach a thousend dollars, but I believe eight hundred
would be nearer it.
Q.
Now, what is the sort of timber that you found, what species , in Two Mile Run?
A. Well, it is different species there. It is pine principally and oak of
different kinds, mixed oak and young white oak; mixed oak is red oak, black oak--
Q.
But you say most of it is pine?
A.
Q,.
That is in Two Mile am?
A. Yes.
Q.
What is the condition of the soil there?
A. sandy loam.
Q.
Is it soil suitable for the production of timber?
A. Yes sir; it has been once heavily timbered in the hollows and sane on the
sides too.
Q.
Is Two Mile Run especially accessable to the railroads?
A. Yes; the railroad runs all along the river there, and the river runs
w1 th the mountain. In sane places, of course, the station would not be
Yes.
parallel
quite as
close.
You have stated that there is a considerable growth of timber on this property
below ten inches in size, one foot above the ground. Now, we propose to show
by another witness that the type of timber for stave wood purposes is timber that
is second growth and is :t'ran four to nine or ten inches in diameter one foot above
the ground. Now, have you estimated the number of cords of timber of that type;
that is, between from four inches to ten inches, one toot above the ground, on
Two Mile lb.m?
A. Yes.
Q.
What is that?
A. That is about three hundrei cords. I think it would be suitable for stave timber, but theTe would be more than that there. I have had sane experience with the
cutting of stave timber and selling it, but not in sawing it out, but I have sold
stave timber, and I think there would be about three hundred thousand feet in
-105755
�there that would sell for stave wood.
Q.
Proceed ing to One Mile Run, what is the approxim ate length of that stream?
A. Well, about four miles.
Q•
The memorandum you have in your hand was prepared by whom?
Q.
From notes taken by you in the field?
Q.
Approxi mately how many acres in there on One Mile Run?
A. About two thousand acres.
Q.
What is the natural now of that stream?
.I. You mean the directio n?
Q.
I mean is it a streem that can be depended upon for saw mill seats?
Q.
Q.
A. By me.
A. Yes sir.
A. I think so, sir.
For running saw mills?
A. I think so.
Is the timber on this run accessab le to the railroad ?
A. Yes, about the same as the rest.
Q.
What ie the chief type of timber you found on One Mile Run?
A. About the same as the other.
Q.
What is your estimate of the number of feet?
A. Saw timber, about one hundred thousand feet.
Q.
What is your estimate of the number of cords ot stave wood?
A. About two hundred cords.
BY THE CCMMISS ION:
Q•
What species do you include in stave wood?
A. Well, soft wood, pines of the differen t kinds, poplar or bass wood.
Q.
You spent about how much time in estimati ng there?
A. About a day.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q,.
Now, let us go to Big Run; about what is the length of that stream?
A. I never was clear around the head of Big Run; I we.an 't to the head of the
streams, all of ths. There is quite a little territor y in there that I didn't
cover.
Q.
Can you estimate the length of the streams that you did observe?
Q.
A. From the south gorge to where I was, it must have been six miles or more.
What about the soil conditio ns in Big Run for developm ent of timber?
A. Well, it is good; there has been a heavy growth of timber there one day, and
the timber is grow.t.ng thrifty that is there.
Q. The fact that the timber that is now there is thrifty and that there has been a
heavy stock of virgin timber shows that the soil conditio n mpst be right for the
growth of timber?
A. Yes.
-10678{,
�Q,.
Did you find any unusually good timber in Big Run?
A. Yes sir, good white pine in there, e.nd I found a good second growth of' oak
and some poplar.
Q.
What was the diameter or some of those pines?
A. I found white pine and poplar in there that will measure thirty-six inches;
I measured them, showing that they are virgin timber from two to three hundred
years old.
·
Q.
Now, the stream in Big Run is the best stream, is it, on this property?
A. It is the heaviest stream; the most water comes through. There are two runs
below, both stocked with trout, and Big Run is the same.
Q.
Do you recall whether, at the base of' Big Run there is a side track of the Norfolk e.nd Western Railroad known as the Cement Siding?
A. That isn't tar, a couple miles. While I am not well acquainted with the distance to the railroad there, I would judge it would not be more than three miles.
The timber is acoessable there; when you get the bridge across, you would have
no trouble getting in with trucks.
Q,.
How does that stream compare with other streams that you know of' as a trout
stream?
A. The best I know of' anywhere. It shows up a solid bottom most of the places,
e.nd not so steep and rugged.
Q.
Now, it is going to be necessary tor you to point out on the map just what
courses you followed on Big Run. First of all, will you state what is the number
of feet of' lumber that you found on that run?
A. It is one million nine hundred eighty-five thousand, I think is my notes there.
Q,.
And how many days did you spend in Big Run?
A. Well, I must have spent about four or five days in there. I cemd up this run
to the first left hand branch of' aey size. The next day I came up and finished
the balance of it up on this branch of that run.
Q.
You are indicating a 'branch to the left or northeast of the main run?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Do you recall whether you went entirely to the source or the top of the mountain?
A. I didn't go to the top of' the mountain. I went up about as far as the old road
extended and seen further too.
Q.
Could you see that there was timber on beyond you that you didn't include in
your estimate?
A. Yes sir, climbing the sides I could see over on the other side and see further
ahe~d. There is more timber up there, but it got smaller and less.
Q.
Will you indicate by a cross mark on the map the places where you went on that
stream?
Witness here takes map and indicates as f'ar as he went by cross marks.
Q.
Coming back to the gorge near the entrance to this property, did you cruise e.nd
estimate the tributaries to that stream on the southwest thereof'?
A. No sir, not until I got up here (pointing to map). Then I went up this stream
on up here. I didn't get up to those hollows here.
-1077
�Q.
Will you indicate by cross marks those tributari es on the southwest side of the
main branc~ of the stream upon which you made no estimate of the timber?
Witness indicates tributari es by marks on the map.
Q.
In other words, practical ly all of your investiga tion of four or five days in
Big Run was ma.de on the northeast ern side of that run?
A. Except up at the head of it up here. I got the head of it in pretty well
except that right hand hollow.
Q.
Could you see whether there was timber up through those hollows through which
these tributari es were coming?
A. As I passed that by, I seen timber standing up the hollows, not very far up.
Q.
Now, a Mr. Smith, the first witness for the state, testified that on these ridges
there was no timber; that there was more timber on the northeast side of the
ridge than on the southwest side; is that correct?
A. It could be, sir.
Q.
Well, he testified to that fact.
You heard him make that statement , didn't you?
A. I don't recall, possibly he did.
Q.
you recall his making the statement that there was as much timber on the southwest side of that stream as there was on the northeast ?
A. I heard it said, yes sir; I think it was Smith, I am not positive, but I heard
it.
Q.
Now, Mr. Smith testified that on Big Run there was one million two hundred and
seventy-f ive thousand feet, and if he testified that there was as much timber
on the southwest side, which is the side that you did not go on, as there was
on the northeast ern side, then, according to his statenent , there would be six
hundred thirty-sev en thousand five hundred feet of timber on the southwest ern
side of that stream for which you have no measurement?
A. Yes sir, that would be about what it would be.
Q.
Now, if you are correct in stating that on the northeast ern side of that stream
there is one million nine hundred eighty-fi ve thousand feet, and Smith is correct
in stating that there is as much on the other side, then that would increase your
figures quite a good deal tor that stream?
A. Yes.
Q.
In fact, it would just double it?
Q.
Now, in or~er that we may be clear on that, your estimate of the timber, that
made in Big Run is one million nine hundred eighty-fi ve thousand feet, and Mr. you
Smith has admitted that there is six hundred thirty-sev en thousand five hundred
feet on the tributary that you didn't cover; so, figuring the number of feet there
to the advantage of the state, there would be, according to your combined figures,
your's and Mr. Smith's, two million six hundred twenty-two thousand five hundred
feet of timber in Big Run?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Now let us go to the lower Lewis Run. How much time did you spend in Lewis Lower
Run?
A. A day, I think.
Q..
Going back to Big Run, what is your estimate on the 8JJX>unt of cord wood suitable
for stave wood purposes?
A. Nine thousand cords.
Do
A. Yes.
-108-
1~
�A. Yes;_ I em testifying now
You are refeITing now to Big Rim?
to what I seen in Big Run.
Q..
-
Lewis Lower Run, you spent what length of time in estimating?
A. About a day.
On
Q,.
What is the approsimate length of that stream?
A~ About three miles.
Q.
What is the amount of your estimate?
A. About fifteen hundred acres.
Q. How many feet of timber did you find on this tract?
A. About a hundred and seventy-fiv e thousand feet.
And what was your estimate of the cords of stave wood?
A. About two hundred.
Q.
Is the timber in this tract as accessable to the railroads?
A. Yes sir. In Deep Run there is a 11 ttle more road work there than in some of
the rest of the runs. There has been roads in there this summer.
How much time did you spend on Lewis Upper Ihm?
A. About the same amount; about a day.
BY
THE COMMISSION:
What kind of timber was on this?
A. It was so:f't wood and oak, about the same as the other runs.
Q..
Q.
You found it about the same all the way through?
A. Some places it will vary a little, but not much until you get to the flat land,
then you find more pine there, but in these hollows they are practically the same
species of timber, the same growth. The heads or the hollows have t he virgin
timber, some, and the hollows down lower, a young growth. It looks like it might
have been cut sixty or seventy-fiv e years ago.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
What is the number of' feet of timber on Lewis Upper
A. Two hundred thousand.
Q.
Now, let us proceed to Deep Run. How much time did you spend on that stream?
A. A day.
Q• .
What is the length of that stream, approximate ly?
A. About tour miles; that is Deep 1\m..
Q.
What is the variety or species of trees that you found there, chiefly?
A. Pine, oak and poplar and some hickory there, right small hickory, but I didn't
take no estimate of the hickory, and gum and some bass wood.
Q.
What is the amount of timber that you found on that tract?
A. A hundred and seventy-fiv e thousand, I think; it is blurred sane -- a hundred
and _fifty thousand feet.
-109-
Run?
�Q.
About how many acres are there in that watershed?
• A. About f'if'teen hundred acres.
Q.
Now, go to Brown's Gap, at Miller's Run.
A. Well, the next day I went into Brown's Gap. That's cut up right smart with
claimants in there, but the territory that I looked over was about a thousand
acres, and had about three hundred and twenty-tive thousand feet of saw timber
and about six hundred cords of' wood.
Q.
I believe I omitted to ask 1:he number of' cords of wood for staves in Deep Run?
A. Two Hundred.
Q. Now, I will ask you to proceed to the smooth or level stretch of' lend at the toe
of' the mountain and the slope against the mountain referred to here as Swamp
lG.ln and Miller's Run.
A. I spent about a day and a half' on that.
What type of' timber did you find on that?
A. I found a young growth of' yellow pine. I estimated that different from the
rest, not fifteen inches twelve inches from the ground, but from about six inches
up to twenty inches, the size of' the trees that are there. It seems that it has
been cut over later than the other hollows. It has a fine growth of young yellow
pine there.
How would you describe that growth of' yellow pine and the condition of' it?
A. It is a thrif'ty growth of' yellow pine, sho,ri.ng that at one time it was well
covered with yellow pine, and the trees there now have a long slim growth and
thri~ty, making two to three logs, and that they are of' the yellow pine type. and
not of' the hard pine type. The genuine yellow pine is in the flats and the hard
mountain pine up in the ridges. Down in the road that leads f'rom Grottoes to
Brown's Gap we found a three cornered strip of land in there that has approximately forty thousand f'eet of' lumber. That lays northeast. It is a good quality
land as well as the rest of' this land; it is good quality and smooth, well adapted to the hardy crops. I saw orchards there within the boundary of this; I think
it was on the Roadcap land. There was orchards there, and they were shucking
corn there, good f'ine corn. They had been growing vegetables on this land. I seen
it down below here on the Furnace land, where the old Furnace house is, and good
thrifty toaato vines there and some fodder. They had been growing some corn there,
and at one time there had been an old mine operated on this flat land, and I included my estimate f'rom a point a little to the east of the old Furnace house up
to Swamp Run and above.
About how many acres in this tract ~ u estimated there?
A. Approximate ly, there might be two,7lliousand acres there.
Q,.
How much yellow pine di4 you f'ind on that tract?
A. About three hundred thousand feet of' yellow pine.
Q,.
When you say that was approximate ly two
thousand acres, and you estimated
three hundred thousand feet of timber, ~o you mean to tell the Commission that you
saw three hundred thousand f'eet of timber there,regar dless of the acreage?
A. Yes sir.
Q,.
If it turns out that it was fifteen thousand acres, that doesn't change the number
of' f'eet that you saw?
A. Not a bit.
illl••
-1107'{0
�Q.
How does that tract ot yellow pine compare with other pine generally found in
thewb.ole area?
A. It is a better quality of pine than the mountain pine.
Q.
How does it compare with pine on other tracts in that area?
A. It is a better grade.
Q.
Is that very accessable to market there?
A. Yes sir; it is close to 1he settlement end to the railroad.
Q.
You stated that that was a second growth of pine?
~.
Is there considerable yellow pine there in this tract that is above four inches
in diameter end below ten inches in diameter a toot above the ground?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
What is your judgment as to the cords of stave wood that there would be on that
particular' tract?
A. About fifteen hundred, including the strip below the road that leads to
Grottoes.
Q,.
You have testified a1'out the crops that you saw on the Roadcap land and other
land adjoining. Is this two thousand acre tract here substantially like the
Roadcap land in quality of soil?
A. A good deal ot it is, and same of it might be better -- just as good, that
strip below the road.
Q.
Now, you have given your estimate here of a number ot feet of timber, 'tlhich,
adding up after you, amounts to 3,395,000 feet, and to that is to be added at
least 537,500 feet, according to the estimate of Mr. Smith, the State's witness,
as to the amount of timber on the southwest side of Big Bun, which makes a total
of 4,032,500 feet of timber. Now, excepting that territory testified to by Mr.
Smith, will you tell this Commission whether or not you saw the amount of timber
that you have testified to here, totalling 3,395,000 feet?
A. Yes, I have seen all the timber that I have testified to.
Q.
Now, I want to ask you• tew questions about the value of timber on the stump.
In your opinion, what is the average value of this timber on the stump?
A. Well, it is about five dollars or between five and six dollars.
Q,.
"
A. Yes.
Mr. Shifflet has prepared a statement here in which he attempts to prove that it
is worth only a dollar end a half on the stump.
A. I can't heip what he has done.
Q.
This suit was instituted on December 18, 1930. Since that time have you sold
lumber of this same general type that is on this tract?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
For the hardwoods, what is the general price that you have been getting?
A. From twenty-two to thirty dollars.
Q,.
What is the price that you have been getting for pine?
A. Well, along about from twenty to tbi rty dollars.
Q.
Mr. Shifflet has placed an average price of twenty-two dollars end a half.
that plenty low enough?
A. Yes sir, that is plenty low enough for that pine.
Is
-1117'if
�Q,.
Q.
Whe.t would be the cost of cutting and getting that timber to the saw mill seat?
A. Well, sanetimes it will cost more, when labor goes up and in bad country, but
we have been averaging about ten dollars; tive tor cutting it and getting it to
the mill and tive tor sawing it.
Do you think it can be done for that price on this property?
A. That is what we have been counting the whole way through.
Q.
When you cut and saw it and get it to the saw mill for ten dollars, does that
allow you a profit for your work?
A. Certainly.
Q,.
You ~ean five dollars tor cutting it and getting it to the saw mill, then five
dollars for sawing it?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Now, you have already testified as to the roads on this property and the fact
that there would be comparatively little cost in getting your timber from your
saw mills to market because of the accessability of this property to the railroad.
What is your opinion as to what it would cost to get this timber, when sawed,
trom the saw mill seats to the nearest railroad station?
A. Well, after you would get the bridge across above the gorge, a man could make
good money at tive dollars a thousand, and hauling it to the railroad station and
putting it on the car; and then, if you deliver to the country around there, you
wouldn't have to put it on the car; it would be about the same thing.
Q,.
Well now, in counting the cost ot your roads, that would eilount to fifteen dollars
would it not?
A. I didn't figure it, but I suppose you are right -- yes, it would. You woul~
need to add any extra cost for the roads, except the bridge.
Q,.
Now, these figures go to prove that five dollars is a very reasonable price for
that timber on the stump, does it not?
A. Well, it is; five dollars it could be hauled tor and make good money. I could
make three or four trips and haul out about fifteen hundred teet each trip.
Q,.
Then if the total cost ot cutting, sawing and hauling is fifteen dollars, then
that would leave seven dollars and a half there as to the value of that timber on
the stump, not counting what is spent on roads?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now, you have stated yesterday when we were qualifying you as an expert here, that
you had spent many of the earlier years o:f your life in cleaning up timber and
pasture and grazing cattle on timber lands?
A. Yes sir.
~-
I will ask you if you saw any good grazing land adjoining this property at any
place.
A. Yes sir;_ I went up, the last day that I was on the land, up Sinmon's Gap road,
and I went up over the mountain through several grazing farms, Hinkle's was the
last; I think a man by the name of Armstrong owned some there, perhaps Taylor and
someone else. It was, they say, Within the boundary of this survey, and I seen
some fat cattle there, in good shape. The last was the Hinkle land, which extended up to the land at the top of the mountain.
Q,.
The Hinkle land is a tract of about three hundred acres, a part of this property?
A. Hinkle told me it was his land.
-112-
�Q.
Q.
What is the value of that grazing land of Hinkle's that is a part of this property, or adjacent to it?
A. I wasn't looking at Hinkle's land, and had no interest in it whatever. The
land that I seen, the most of it,of the Hinkle land that was there, was worth
twenty-fi ve or thirty dollars an acre.
Now, is there any of the Mount Vernon land there that could be utilized for the
same purpose?
A. Yes sir, along the top of the mountain, south of the Hinkle land, there is a
strip there, narrow in places, and other place• it widens out there for some two
miles or better that would go into blue grass sod after cutting off the brush and
stocking it pretty heavy for cattle or sheep. It is of a nature that the cattle
and sheep would eat down and kill out the brush.
]lY THE COMMISSION:
Q,.
Isn't most of that in Green County?
A. Most of it is in Rockingham, I think.
It is on the west side watershed of the
Blue Ridge.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
About what acreage is there in that?
(No answer given)
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q. The line goes at right angles up on the Hinkle place and then back?
A. No sir; I went up through the Eyler and Armstrong land and then through the
Hinkle land.
Q.
And this was to the right?
A. Yes. Some little of it was on the left of the watershed , but most of it on the
right, and it will make good grazing land if cleaned up. The fire has burned
over that land not long ago, and•the brush that is coming up there is a good
deal sassafras , locust and chestnut, but the chestnut is principal ly dead. There
is some hickory there that would be hard to kill, but not much.
BYMR. TAVENER:
About how many aores?
A. About three hundred acres, as near aa I can tell.
Q..
What valuation would you place on that three hundred acres tor grazing purposes?
A. About ten dollars an acre.
Now, have you had experienc e with the grazing of sheep in territory of this sort?
A. Yes.
Q,.
Q..
Will you explain to the Commission in what way this property could be used,
particula rly Big Run, for sheep grazing?
A. It could be used as a sheep ranch better than a cattle ranch.
Mr. Marsh contended here that it would take an awfully good goat to make a 11ving
in Big Run there.
A. Well, I expect there is some that couldn't make anything at all, where there
is others that could make money there; that 110uld depend upon what he had been
-1137'1 3
�doing during his lifetime. I find no sign of any animal in there that would interrupt sheep. There's no bears, wild cats or anything like that in there. We have
bears on our ranch here, but they wouldn't have that trouble.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
What would it cost to clear this land up, Mr. Turner, and make it a grazing property, this three hundred acres?
- A. Well, when I cleaned up my land, I had it ·principally with cattle and sheep. I
cut off the brush and burned it and then I stocked it heavily; and when there was
some they didn't kill, I cut it oft, maple and hickory is hard to kill. On this
mountain it was mostly chestnut, some sassafras. I think it 110uld take about ten
dollars an acre to get this cleared, but it would take perhaps ten years to get
it all cleaned up, but the cattle would be getting pasture there all the time. If
I wanted a quick blue grass sod, I would sow it, but that would cost a little more;
but I think about ten dollars an acre would get it into good shape that would make
it worth about twenty dollars an acre.
BY MR. TAVENER:
~. In other words, that land ought to be worth ten _dol l ars an acre at the present t i me?
A. Oh yes, I think so.
Q.
You have stated that you have spent practically all your life in the mountains in
the timber business; you have been employed by the United States Government and
many individuals and you have worked for yourself?
A. Yes.
~.
Assuming that we are allowed ten dollars an acre for that three hundred acres,and
leaving that out of considerati on, what would be a tair price, in your opinion,
for the rest of that land?
A. Well, that is hard to come at; I would take it from sales of land which I have
made to the government and to other people.
Q.
Sales, after cutting the timber, you mean?
A. Yes sir. The only land of this kind in large tracts that I knor, of being sold
recently is sold to the government. I have a tract optioned now at three dollars
an acre, twenty miles :tom the railroad, from which you couldn't consider the timber on it as we couldn't now get it out. This tract, being nearer to the railroad than mine, I would think would be worth three dollars and fifty cents an
acre.
,
Q,. You mean three dollars end fifty cents after taking off the timber?
A. Yes sir, after taking oft the timber.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
Taking this Alexander tract as a whole, would you compare it of equal soil value
as the land that you have reference to that you have optioned to the government?
A. Yes sir, I would.
Q,.
It has been stated here by the state that the average price that they paid tor the
National Forest's half million •acres of land in West Virginia, as well as in the
Maasanutten range of mountains, was three dollars and sixty-six cents an acre.
Don't you think that this land, including the timber and all, is of equal value?
A. I am not prepared to say; I don't know enough about what they have sold; but,
compared with the land I have optioned and sold, it would be worth more on account
ot its nearness to the railroad.
-114-
�Q.
Now, I am going to ask you, Mr. Turner, to make a compiled statement ot your
various estimates and values, and :f'ile that as a part ot your deposition,and
mark it Turner Exhibit No. 1.
A. I Will do that.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
That two thousand acres that you spoke ot at the toe ot the mountain the soil
part ot that, the price per acre for that, as it all the timber were otf?
A. I don't know that I have got any estimate of that. With the timber on, about
$12.40 - the land that I looked at there.
Q..
What would you consider it now; are you in e. position to make a statement
What would you consider the soil value after the timber was taken oft?
A. Well, there's some of it would be worth more than other. Some of it is better
suited, especially that north road leading to Grottoes and that close to the road
along there, part of it ought to be worth anyhow ten dollars or twelve dollars an
acre tor farming purposes and orchard.
Q.
Did you go over the Augusta County portion?
A. I don't think so; I wasn't up farther than swamp Bun.
BY MR. TAVENER:
The line runs through there somewhere.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
Did you go along that road that goes up to Black Rock Spring?
A. No sir.
Q.
Were you to the right hand side of the road, Mr. Turner, that leads from Grottees
toward Black Rock; that is on south?
A. Yes, I was on the left hand side~and down next to the old Furnace house I was
on a three cornered piece of timber there that they told me belonged to it. I
wasn't up any further than that Roadcap land. I went up through that land there.
Another man lives up there, and I went through the orchards there and then came
down below where the old furnace was.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. AlMSTRONG:
Q. Mr. Turner, the testimony on behalf of the petitioner, which is the state, shows
that the area of the Alexander tract in Rockingham County is approximately nineteen thousand five hundred fifty-tour acres. How much of this nineteen thousand
five hundred fifty-tour acres did you see; how many acres would you say?
A. I have it appraximately estimated here.
Q.
Q.
You need not call out the number of acres. If you can refer to that and add up
the number of acres that you think you saw, that will satisfy me for the present,
but I am going to ask you the different acreages later. Did you see three-fourths
of it?
·
A. That is a question I am hardly able to answer as I wasn't clear around the
_boundary of this land.
Well, you could tell approximately?
A. Yes sir; they are getting it there. About twenty thousand, but that is just a
guess.
-115-
�Q.
Well, were you guessing at the number of acres you didn't go over?
A. Well, sir, it might be a fourth that I didn't go over. That west side of Big
Run there is a pretty big territory , getting an ocular ob•ervati on of it from
the top of the Blue Ridge mountains .
Q,.
You went over three-fou rths of the area in Rockingham County according to your
best iiea?
A. Yes.
Q,.
What, in your opinion, is the fair, cash, market value of the three-fou rths of
the tract that you did go over for all purposes for which it is reasonabl y adapted?
A. Taking the timber away from it?
Q,.
No, the fair, cash, market value of the land and whatever is on it and for all
purposes for which it is reasonabl y adapted.
A. I can compile that statement . You take it there - you can see.
Q.
Well, use your memorandum and what your counsel has here.
A. The timber is about five' on the stump, as of the number of feet there.
Q,.
Now, the question is, the lands which you saw, which you estimated to be threefourths of the tract. You said the lands that you saw would cover approxim ately
twenty thousand acres, and you estimated that there was at least one-fourt h of
the land that you did not see. Now, then, the lands that you saw, referring to
your memorandum and your notes, will you tell us what, in your opinion, is the
fair, cash, market value of the portion of the tract that you saw for all purposes which, in your opinion, it is reasonabl y adapted?
A. $16,976.0 0 for the timber. There is some grazing land there, about three hundred acres of grazing land. That is hard for me to get at because I don't know the
number of acres that are in that flat land.
Q.
I understoo d your counsel to propound a question to you about the land at the toe
of the mountain in which the number of acres, as I recall, you stated to be about
two thousand?
A. Yes sir, approxim ately that, and I have the timber and land valued at $12.40
per acre.
BY MR. TAVENER, RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION:
Q.
Have you sold stave wood by the cord on the stump?
A. Yes, I have; I got a dollar a cord for it.
BY MR • .A™STRONG-:
Q.
Now, will you answer my question -- In order that we may understan d each other,
Mr. Turner, I desire to know from you what, in your opinion, is the fair, cash,
market value of so much of the Alexander tract in Rockingham County as you saw;
I mean the fair, cash, market value for all purposes for which this Rockingham
area that you testified you saw, is rea~onabl y adaptable ; for all purposes, including value of the land and the value of the timber growing thereon. I understand, from your fonn.er answers, that you saw about three-fou rths of the area in
Rockingham County.
A. Well, I am not including any value that might be there for anything that I em
not qualified to answer. Now, what I think that I am qualified to answer, it is
worth $8Q,075.0 0.
-116-
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _79
. ~
�~.
That is for the three-fourths of the tract?
A. Yes, accounting for fifteen thousand acres; that is three-fourths of twenty
thousand. It fisures up at $3.50 for the land, $52,600; for the stave wood,
$12,300.00; for the saw timber, $16,675.00; for grazing purposes, $5,000.00,
and for fire wood, $2,500.00.
~.
I understood you to saw, whilst testifying in chief, that you saw a good portion of the land that you did not go over.
A. An ocular observation of it; seen the outside boundaries, that is at a distance from the top of the Blue Ridge mountains.
Q.
Was there any portion of the tract that you saw that
classed as barren land?
A. Yes.
was
barren, or w:>uld be
Q. About how many acres?
A. Well, that ia hard for me to get at, being tar away from it, and not knowing
the exact boundary line; it would be hard for me to get at what I didn't cruise
or see.
Q,.
Q.
You didn't cruise or inspect, for purposes of testifying as to value, any of
this barren land?
A. I went over some ot it, and seen over the rest ot it.
About how many acres did you go over and see over according to your best idea?
A. It might possibly be one-half of it that there is no timber on ot any consequence. There wwld be some value there as a sheep ranch.
I understand you to say that of t he acreage you went over, there might be onehalf of that acreage that would be classed as barren land, or land that had little
value?
A. As anything other than a sheep ranee, end possibly some little value as timber,
but not much.
Q.
Do
~.
Is there as many as two thousand acres of that barren land?
A. Yes sir, that would not be valued as timber while taking it from a government
standpoint. It would be valued for the price you could get for it. If you can
sell that land, it has the value tor you at just what you can get for it.
Q.
What can you get for barren land in the Blue Ridge mountains in Rockingham County?
A. I can only arrive at a price from the lands that I have sold in the Shenandoah
Mountain similar to the Blue Ridge Mountain.
Q.
What is the price for barren lands in the Shenandoah Mountain?
A. I have optioned there and have sold -- It has some timber on, but is not
accessable, there would be no stumpage value on it after 1 t would be got to market. The land I have optioned at $3.00 per acre; the government has offered me
that for it.
Q.
The government has offered three dollars an acre for absolutely barren land?
A. It is not barren, but the timber isn't worth anything today; the distance is
too great and the roads too bad ·to get it out.
~
Q. Will there ever be any timber on barren land?
A. Well, this I would have to class as barren land. There \'Duld be a possibility
there of this timber getting a better price later on, as the lumber market may
come back again. It would grow timber and grow some grass.
-117-
7~1
�Q.
How long would it take this barren land on this Alexander tract of approximately
two thousand acres, let us say, to grow a tree that would cut ten inches across
the butt twelve inches from the ground?
A. Possibly never.
Q.
Highly probably never, isn't it?
A. Well, the tire has run over that land; it is on the southwest side where the
wind blows strong, and it is dry, and the fire has been running over that part
of the land for a number of years and it don't let any timber grow there. I
think the land would be productive enough if the fire could be kept out of it;
but there is three things that are essential to growing timber; there is good
soil and moisture and shelter from high winds. These lands, being on the southwest side where the winds blow more and keep the lands dry and being unsheltered;
that is what, in my opinion, has kept the timber down. On the northeast side where
it is not so dry and the wind don't blow to it, and the leaves lay on the ground,
and it is sheltered from the southwest winds and where it is damper, the timber
grows there. It would never benearly as productive down there as it ould lack
moisture.
Q.
Would you be willing to place any estimate of value on that portion of the Alexander tract in Rockingham County that you did not actually go upon, but which
you saw?
A. I would place it, exclusive of the timber, at $3.50 per acre, just what the
government gives for such land as that. Three dollars is what they offered me
and this being nearer the railroad, it would be worth more.
Q.
You estimate the value to be $3.50 per acre for the land that you didn't go upon,
including this two thousand acres, more or less, of barren land?
A. Judging from the price of government land-- what they are paying; but you have
to take it for what you can get tor it. I can only arrive at that price by what I
got for my land similar to this.
~.
And the land that you have and about which you have testified that the government
has taken an option, or that you have priced to the government at three dollars
per acre, is similar in quality to the two thousand acres of barren land that we
have spoken about on the Alexander tract?
A. No sir. I said that we could consider the timber on it today as not being
worth anything because it is too far from market. Therefore, I am pricing it as
if the timber was off the land, and with the timber off, it would be worth, and
I expect to get three dollars an acre.
~.
With the timber oft your land, how does your land compare with the two thousand
acres of barren land on the Alexander tract?
A. It would be better than the two thousand acres.
Q. And yet you are placing this two thousand acres of barren land at actually fifty
cents more an acre than your own land, which you say is better?
A. I am pricing the whole Blue Ridge mountain, the productive land that is there
along With the two thousand acres, at $3.50.
~.
Assign some value to ~he two thousand acres of barren land independent of any
other portion.
A. I can only come at that by what they have offered me for land that has no timber on it.
~-
Now then, you do not express any opinion as to the actual value,for any purpose,
of the two thousand acres of barren land, but only say that it ought to be worth
-11a7'1S
�$3.50 per acre because the government will give that; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q.
And you base that upon the fact that you have contracted to sell to the government, at three dollars an acre, a tract or land that is of better quality than
this two thousand acres of barren land?
A. Well, taking it as a productive value that might come on, a possibiiity, why
I have.
Q,.
In your testimony in chief, when you were speaking about visiting the various
portions of the Alexander tract, you used the word "we". Who visited it with you?
}... I had a man along w1 th me there that went w1 th me over the land.
Q,.
Who?
Q.
Did he cruise?
A. He went along, and, of course, we talked over the matter of this land. He is
fairly good in timber; but he merely went along with me. He drove my car, and
then he walked with me, and he was only along with me.
Q.
Your judgment was independent, and was not influenced by Mr. Fulk, was it?
A. No, and nobody else.
Q.
I will ask you to refer to your memorandum which you have before you and which
you have used in testifying, and state, one after the other, the footage of lumber
in the various areas or sections of the Alexander tract, and the total.
A. That I have seen?
A. Welden :Bulk.
Q.
Q,.
Yes, of course.
A. There is one of those runs, Two Mile Run, that we totalled forty thousand feet.
In Two Mile Run, my first estimate was two hundred thousand feet, but I had included about forty thousand feet that belonged to another man, making 160,000 feet,
the value five dollars a thousand, equalling $800.00; and in One Mile Run, 100,000
feet at $5.00 a thousand, making $500000; In Big Run, l,985,000 feet, at $5.00,
totalling $9,925.00; Lewis Lower Run, 175,000 feet, at $5.00, total $875.00; Lewis
Upper Run, 200,000 feet, at $5.00, total $1,000.00; Deep Run, 150,000 feet, at
$5.00, total $50.00; Brown's Gap, 325,000 feet, at $5.00, total $1,625.00; the rest
of the tract then from Brown's Gap to Swamp Run, 300,000 feet, at $5.00, total
$1500.00.
Q,.
Q,.
Is this last tract which you have mentioned, the same that has been referred to by
Mr. Tavener in his questions, as the land situated at the toe of the mountain?
A. Yes sir.
Now, Mr. Turner, that 3,395,000 feet represents board feet of lumber?
A. Yes sir.
Q,.
And, in addition to that, you found stave wood?
Q,.
How much?
A. 12,300 cords, valuing that at the government price of one dollar a cord, or a
total of $12,300.00.
~.
Then, that would give a total of timber or wood values, ot $29,275.00, w:iuld it not?
A. I think so; I haven't got it added; I think that is what it would make.
Q.
Now, I believe you said you made all your estimates by ocular method?
A. Yes sir.
g
A. Yes sir.
�. ~.
You didn't count the trees in any given acreage or locality, did you?
A. I did not.
Q.
You made your estimates with reference to saw mill sites?
~.
You mapped out, in your mind's eye, where would be a good place for a saw mill
site and then the number of thousand feet of lumber that could be hauled to
that saw mill?
A. Yes, that could be gotten there and sawed up there.
Q.
Who pointed out to you the boundaries of this tract?
A. I ·took a map along.
~-
Q.
A. Yes sir.
Whose land was it that you got on through mistake?
A. It was on a tract of land that was cut off; a five thousand acre tract was
. cut off the lower end of this tract of land, and it runs through a portion of
the hollow that I was estimating, and I estimated the whole thing . They showed
me where the line went through diagonally, end afterward I found out a small
pa.rt of that land didnot belong to it, and I estimated it would be forty thousand.
feet of timber on it approximately.
When did you discover that you had been on the wrong piece of land?
A. I discovered that there was a line went through there, and it was a question
.then whether it belonged to it or not, but, at that time, I had taken a rude
estimate as to what was inside the boundary, inside that line, and I thought it
would be about forty thousand.
Q.
When did you make that deduction; after you made your report to your employers?
A. No.
Q,.
That was pretty much of a guess?
A. It was en ocular examination.
~-
On how many acres of land do you estimate that you had made a mistake?
A. At that time I hadn't got it into my mind how many acres it was, as I was only
estimating the feet of timber. I never cl aimed t o be an expert i n guessing at t he
number of acres.
Q.
You are a much bet t er guesser at the amount of lumber than you are at the number
of acres?
A. Well, the number of acres never concerned me very much; it was the number of
feet of timber that was on it.
Q.
Now, let us get back once more to your method of work. Let us take the Two Mile
Run on which you found 160,000 feet of merchantable standing timber, I believe
you said. What kinds of timber were there there?
A. It was a variety of timber in which the soft wood was about half of it.
Q.
Give the varieties of it, plee.seJ the different kinda of timber that you found
there.
A. I ~ was principally mountain pine. hard pine.
~-
About how many
A. I estimated
I estimated it
pine, mountain
thousand feet did you fi nd on Two Mile Run?
that with the soft pine and with whatever other pine was there;
together; some white pine, some little yellow pine, some slate
pine in the majority.
- 120-
�Q.
Now, by your ocular estimate, about how many thousand feet of each of these pine
varieties, did you find?
A. Oh, I couldn't tell you that.
Q,.
Couldn't even guess?
A. I would think the hard pine was perhaps fifty percent of it.
Q,.
You will have to be a little more specific for me, please,Mr. Turner• I have
listed what you gave, but I don't know which is hard pine.
A. It is a pine that is a species ot yellow pine, and some people say if a tree
stands long enough it will be a yellow pine, but I never thought so,
Q.
You found 160,000 feet altogether, one-half of which, 80,000 feet, was divided
among these four classes of' pine, and one-half, or forty-thousand feet, would be
the yellow hard pine, which is a particularly desirable kind of pine?
A. Not so much so as yellow pine.
Q,.
Now, could we divide the white pine, the yellow pine and the mountain pine
equally about one-third, or not?
A. There is more white pine than there is of the other.
Q.
What would be the number of feet of white pine there?
A. It would be fifty percent of the remainder; fifty percent of the slate pine
and white pine, possibly a little more. That is a thing I wasn't sent there to
estimate and I didn't take any particular notice of the amount of that; I did
of the size of' the trees.
Q.
I would like to get your best idea as to the quantity of the different species.
A. You shall have it.
Q.
Now then, after deducting forty thousand of the eighty thousand feet, would leave
forty thousand feet, and about twenty thousand of that would go as white pine?
A. Yes sir, I think so.
Q.
And that would leave twenty thousand feet more to be divided among_st mountain
pine and slate pine?
A. You have mountain pine in there twice. That would go yellow pine and slate
pine; slate pine and a small amount of yellow pine.
Q.
How much mountain pine?
A. It is fifty percent of the soft wood that is there, eighty thousand feet, and
forty thousand would be the mountain pine, if' you care to call it that; and then
twenty thousand feet of' white pine and twenty thousand feet ot true yellow pine
and slate pine.
Q.
Well, your testimony has been that there were eighty thousand feet of the different varieties of pine, of which twenty thousand would be white pine, forty thousand feet of yellow pine
A. No, mountain pine.
Q.
Alright, forty thousand feet of mountain pine and twenty thousand feet of yellow
pine and slate pine. Which of these bring the best price on the market for lumber?
A. Well, genuine yellow pine.
-1218ol
�~-
Now, have we got any genuine yellow pine?
A. A few trees there.
Q,.
Practically negligable quantity?
Q.
Then, white pine; of this twenty thousand feet of white pine, what does that
bring on the market?
A. More than the hard pine. We have sold it as high as sixty a thousand. Along
in 19!0 it would have brought twenty-five. We sold it in 1931 for about the same.
Q.
What has been its vorth from July l, 1931, to the present time, say, on an average?
A. I can't give it to you.
Q.
A. Yes.
Less than it was in +930?
A. It could be. If you found a buyer that wanted a certain class of white pine,
you could get about the same price, but when you come to dumping it all on the
market, the market was so small they didn't want it at all, and that would cut
it down. There is no demand for it, but when there is a demand, it will bring
a fair price. Now and then you will find a little demand for it, but we are
afraid to sell it.
Q.
Q.
You are speaking of local demand?
A. Yes, principally, but it has a shipping value too when there is a dE111and.
What was the shipping value when there was a demand?
A. The last was about twenty-five.
Q.
In 1930?
Q.
We have accounted for about one-half o:t' the t imber in Two Mile Eun as being
various classes of pine . There are still left eighty thousand feet; what are
those?
A. Oak and some poplar and same gum, hardwoods, and there is hickory there.
Q.
How would you divide this eighty thousand feet as to oak, poplar and gum?
A. Mixed oak is ahead, it predominates; more of that than white oak.
Q.
I should be glad i:t' you would give the footage.
A. I would think there would be fifty percent of mixed oak.
Q.
That would be forty thousand feet?
Q.
And how about poplar?
A. Very small percentage of the poplar of the one-half.
Q.
Of the forty thousand feet remaining, how many would be poplar?
A. Well, there might be ten.
Q.
And that would l!~Yf_thirty thousand feet of gum?
A. No, there is l.ffll oak there.
A. Yes.
A. Yes.
Alright, sir, would you mind stating the white oak and gum, in feet?
A. No more than ten percent of that is of gum.
�Q.
Well, eight thousand feet of gum, you mean?
A. Yes, and the rest is white oak. There is some bass wood, but it is not worth
talking about.
Q.
Well, you did not include anything in your estimate not worth talking about?
A. Well, that goes in with the soft wood; anything similar, it goes in With that.
Q.
That would leave about twenty-two thousand feet ot white oak?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Well now, of the mixed oak and the poplar and the white oak, which is the most
valuable?
A. The mixed oak, the white oak and the poplar and the gum --- well, in that
particular boundary, the white oak is.
Q.
What size trees are the white oak in that particular boundary?
A. They run what I have estimated, from ten inches twelve inches
up; some would run eighteen inches and sane a good deal more.
from the ground
Q.
What would you cut those white oak trees up into?
A. Whatever I could get the best price tor.
Q,.
Supposing it was now or twelve months ego even, what would you cut them up into and
put them on the market tor?
A. I would have graded it and sold it for different purposes; I would have cut
it into one common and better, all I could get.
Q.
How much of it would have run one con:mon?
A. Not so much.
Q.
Could you give it to us in feet?
A. About ten percent of twenty-two thousand.
Q.
You think there would be 2100 feet ot number 1 White Oak?
Q.
Then, you would have divided into No. 1, 2, 3 and 4 common?
A. I would have divided into one common and better, number two would have been
three and number four and so on.
Q.
Only ten percent of it one common?
A. Yes, and some is much better. One common has so many knots in a board, and
better has less knots and it is a wider board and a longer board.
Q.
Then you would have sawed all this timber up into boards, would you?
A. No sir, I would not; it would just depend upon what the man wanted it for.
Q.
From your experience, knowledge and success as a lumberman, you must know standing
timber when you see it; and what it is best adapted for when manufactured. What
I desire to know is what is the quality of this 1fhite oak timber, from what you
say of it and what you know of timber, what would it have been best adapted to
for manufacturing purposes?
A. For the coal and iron people at Pottsville, Pennsylvania, railroad stock.
Q.
Then
A. I
If I
into
A. Yes sir.
you would have sawed this lwnber into railroad stock?
would have taken my side off; that llOuld have made my one common and better.
would have some more one common and better on there, I would have cut it up
boards.
-123-
�Q.
You are not able to tell, then, what percentage of this white oak w:> uld have gone
into the best class of lumber?
A. No, I couldn't tell you and no one else could tell. You can tell if it is a
sound tree or not, but there will be small knots on the inside that you cannot
see until you get it down.
Q.
Any chestnut up there?
Q.
You did not take any of that into consideration?
Q,.
Worth nothing, is it?
Q.
Now, let us go down to the tract at the foot or toe of the mountain where you
found this pine.
A. That is what is supposed to be the two thousand acres?
Q.
It is given here as three thousand feet?
Q.
That represents practically altogether pine, doesn't it?
Q,.
What kind of pine?
Q.
'l'lhe best variety of yellow pine?
A. It is young yet. Yellow pine, when it is young, hasn't the valuation that it
has when it gets two hundred and fifty years old. The older it gets, the more
value there is.
Q.
Is there any two hundred and fifty year old tree on that tract?
A. I didn't see any. The original timber had been cut off this particular tract.
Q.
So the pine that you saw was practically altogether second growth pine?
A. Yes.
Q.
About how old?
A. I would think that there had not been growing over forty or fifty years,whilst
other portions of the tract of land looked as if it had been cut over longer than
that. Possibly some of this was cut off. It looked as though it had been pretty
well cleaned up forty or fifty years ago.
Q,.
What percentage of the three hundred thousand feet is other than pine, if any?
A. None .
Q.
Solid yellow pine?
A. Solid young yellow pine, in the yellow pine flat where it grows.
Q.
You heard Mr. Gaynor testify yesterday?
A. I heard him, but I didn't understand him.
A. Some, dead.
A. No .
A. Only for fire wood.
A. Yes sir.
A. Yes.
A. Yellow pine o
Q• He referred to this as being practically all poor pine?
A. If he did, he doesn't know what yellow pine is.
Q.
You referred a moment ago to the pine on Two Mile Run as being yellow pine, but
not strictly yellow pine, in your opinion?
A. Yes, I did.
~.
Now, this three hundred thousand feet, is this strictly yellow pine?
A. Yes sir; down where the yellow pine grows.
-124-
�Q.
How, in your opinion, could this three hundred thousand feet of strictly yellow
pine be best utilized?
A. Well, if it was mine and I didn't just need the money, I would let it grow;
I believe it would be worth more in twenty-five or fi1'teen years from now. It
would grow in feet as well as value.
Q.
Well, value, of course, would be very problematical, because we cannot tell what
uses timber will be put to twenty-five years from now.
A. It would be a leap in the dark, but it would g~ow in size, and if it would
stay, it would be worth more money because it would be older and larger.
Q.
Now, its present value; that is what it is the duty of the Board of Appraisal
Commissioners to find out. In order to get the best worth of it now, how would
you handle it?
A. I would cut it up into 2x4, 6, 8 and 10, if there was any, 18 and 20 feet long.
Q.
What would you get for that per thousand, f.o.b . ?
A. It would depend on how much you would get for the wider size and the long
lengths; it would depend on what orders you would get .
Q.
Can you give us an idea?
A. I believe you can sell it for $22.50 .
Q.
Do you know anyone who is paying that?
A. If you could find a buyer who waated a house or barn built , you could sell it
for that .
Q.
Is there a steady market at that price, t.o . b. for that?
A. No sir, not today.
BY MR. WALKER: Objected to because the value is not measured by whether the market
is steady or not .
Q.
Is there an unsteady market for this class of lumber at
A. I don't know of any.
Q.
So there is no steady or unsteady market?
A. I can't tell you what it is today or what it is in the future. We have always
been able to sell our output until la.te this summer.
Q.
Practically all of this Alexander tract has been cut over and culled from time to
time?
A. It has been cut over. The original white pine is standing up in the hollows
where they cut the rest of the timber; why, I don't know, but they are there, old
trees.
Q.
How long has it been since any timber of any quantity has been cut in that area
that you looked over, so far as you were able to detennine?
A. There has been but very little timber cut. I seen about two places where a
little bark had been peeled and gotten out about two years ago, and I seen where
a few locust posts had been gotten out, and I seen a few condemned posts laying
there where they had been hauling them out .
Q.
How long has 1 t been since any considerable quan~i ty of timber has been cut up
there, would you say?
A. I would think it has been twenty or twenty-five years.
- 125•
22.50 today?
�Q.
There are very few roads on that tract?
A. There are roads every where.
Q.
What were those roads tor?
A. I can't tell you what tor; I suppose for getting out the timber.
Q.
Apparently there would be no other reason?
A. There is no farms or m..es up there; I wouldn't see any other reason.
~.
Now, roads cut through land twenty years ago and used practically none since,
would they be in good shape now for getting out timber?
A. They would be of the very best, except where it has been washed away. It
would be a solid bed, an old road, that is what we hunt for.
Q.
You would have to use horses and wagons or mules and wagons up there when you
could not use trucks?
A. I could use trucks for p~actically all of the saw mill sites, but I would
have to drag the logs down to the saw mill seats, and I could haul out up to
fifteen hundred feet at a truck load.
Q.
Would you use any of this timber in ties?
A. Very little, very little. We never put into railroad ties unless it is a
stock that won't make anything else. e cut some switch ties.
Q. Could you cut any of this into switch ties or railroad ties at a profit today?
A. At the price I sold at last in July and August I could.
A. Yea.
Q.
1931?
Q.
What did you get?
A. From twenty-two to twenty-eigh t dollars for switch ties.
Q.
Who did you sell to?
A. To the Southern Railroad.
Q.
Where did you deliver them?
A. Timberville , Virginia.
Q•
How many?
A. I think about thirty thousand feet, and the last was shipped about August .
Q.
From what timber?
Q.
How far did you haul them?
A. Six or seven miles.
Q.
In estimating this timber, would you or not, in looking over an area, reach
the conclusion that there was a certain number of acres in that area and an
average ot so much per acre?
A. No sir. I have often stepped off acres and we have measured them with a
chain and then cut them ott.
Q.
I hold in my hand a typewritten paper, which you have referred to continually
during the progress of your examination in chief as well as cross examination .
May I look at it?
A. Certainly.
A. White oak.
-126-
�Q..
What is this?
A. That is a copy of the estimate of my cruise of timber in the Blue Ridge mountains
Q.
This estimate may be o:f value to the Board of Appraisal Commissio ners :for the
purpose o:f ascertain ing the value of the land and timber.
A. I would think so .
Q.
Will you :file it with your depositio n?
~.
I have al.so notic~d that you refer to a certain black bound book.
A. Yes.
Q.
What is that?
Q.
And you have based your testimony in part on reference to your memorandum?
A. Partly. I want to look to make sure I am right about ito
Q,.
Then I suggest that that might be of evem more value to the Board. Would you
:file that?
A. I wouldn't like to; I have other matters in there -- I have other matters in it.
Q.
Is there _any differenc e between that book and this?
A. Not at all. only a few of the figures in there look dim, and I made it plainer
in here.
Q.
This typewritt en memorandum seems to be a carbon copy; where is the original?
A. It is here sanewhere .
Q.
Then you prefer not to give the book?
A. I don't want to give it, but it can be copied.
Q.
Would you let the Board of Appraisal Commissioners inspect it and hand it back
to you?
A.
My
A. I will.
field memorandum.
A. Yes.
Q.
I am talking about when they are going upon the land.
A. They ought to have a copy then.
Q.
Will you let them have a copy then, if they see fit to have it?
A. Yes sir.
Q,.
When you made your ocular inspectio n of this timber, you made memorandums at the
same time?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Does your memorandum show your estimate of the varieties of timber as you went
along?
A. Yea. I think sane places it does.
Q.
To what extent does it show?
A. It shows, I think, the variety of timber, but I don't think it _shows the percent.
Q.
It does not show the quantity?
A. No sir, not of each separatel y.
--127 ...
�Q..
Why was it you didn't do that?
A. I was sent in to estimate the number ot feet there.
Q.
If you were buying it wouldn't you like to know the number of feet of the different varieties?
A. I could soon get that. When going into a tract, I would see how much white pine
is here and all other kinds the same, and get that all looked over, and how many
feet then over here, so many feet here; then, what is it worth; then,what is the
price, and so on.
Q,.
But you did not do that?
A. Well,practi cally the same thing. I went over it just about as it I were going
to buy that timber.
Q..
Did you not think the Board would be interested in knowing the number ot feet ot
the different varieties?
A. I think I have it there sufficient that they can get it.
Q..
Will you read trom your book the number of varieties and the footage?
I have given you the number of feet.
A. I will.
Q..
You have given me that, as a guess, not trom your book.
A. I will give it to you just as it is in the book here.
Q..
What I want to know is whether or not, in the course ot your cruise, you set down
in your book at the time of making the cruise, or during the progress of the cruise,
the approximate number of thousand feet of the different varieties of timber on
the different sections you cruised?
A. I did not.
Q.
Then reference to your book will not help me?
A. It Will to the amount of feet there and the description of the timber and so
forth, it will. The carbon copy might have got dimmer.so that I couldn't tell a
three from a five, and here, I go back here and it is plain in here.
Q,.
Now then, Mr. Turner, take your book and go through your book and state, from
recollectio n, aided by reference to your book and tYPewritten memorandum, the
number of thousand feet of the different varieties of timber that you found in
the different sections which you cruised, which sections you have named as Two
Mile Run, One Mile Run, Big Run, Lewis Lower Run, Lewis Upper Run, Deep Run,
Brown's Gap and Brown's Gap to swamp Run.
A. In Two Mile Bun I found approximate ly two hundred thousand feet of timber, a
fine growth of young timber, oak, pine and some poplar, dead chestnut, a good
stream of water well stocked with trout.
Q.
Pardon me, Mr. Turner, but we do not want to take up unnecessary time. Give in
detail the number of thousand feet of the different varieties of timber that you
found.
A. Two hundred thousand feet in Deep Run, about fifty percent of it pine; that is
the way I recollect it. The other I have given you.
Q.
Yes, that was the Two Mile Run section,
A. It runs practically the same. Here is One Mile Run, one hundred thousand feet
of saw timber. That runs about the same. It is the next run to it, and the soil
don't change, and the first growth as well as the second growth I don't think
changed by the look of the stumps. It is all practically the same throughout the
whole survey, throughout the different runs I was in. There is some virgin timber.
�Q,.
I em asking the number of thousand feet of the different kinds of timber.
A. I think it is about fifty percent ot soft wood ot the different kinds of pine
and the other hardwoods.
BY THE COMMISSION:
•
In getting this stave wood together for stave wood purpases, how many cords of
wood do you put down for stave purposes?
A. I don't know anything about that.
Q.
Would you give five dollars an acre for this timber land?
A. Under normal conditions; not at present prices. I wouldn't buy it at all at
the present time. It might be a splendid good time to buy timber, and it might
be a bad time; we can't tell where we are at.
(Witness arrives at the fuel wood by stating that it is worth fifty cents per
cord on the stump.)
Q.
You had a great deal ot esperience in fire wood?
I find that the western end of this land, along the western side near
the settlement there, the firewood would be or value.
A. Yes.
Q,.
Do you know whether those people living there near Grottoes are buying that
wood
now tor a dollar e. cord on the stump?
A. I don't know, but they say that they are selling it and can sell it and have
a good market for it; but I don't know further than that.
BY MR. A:R\mRONG:
Q.
You included in your estimate here all the timber and wood that you saw?
A. Well, there is a great deal more tire wood there than there is 1·n my estimate,
but I don't know if 1 t would be of value or not.
Q.
Did you see any saw timber that you thought would cost more to get it than it
it would be worth, that is inaccessable?
A.Well , where I saw it was up against the steep side and had many rocks. I took
but little account of it.
Q.
So that really the lands that you saw and went over contained more timber than
you have estimated?
A. Well, on the barren side and on the side where there was some little shelter;
there was a few trees in the sheltered side.
Q,.
Did you find any trees damaged by fire within the areas you were through?
A. Yes, in the northeast end and up et the top of the mountain.
Q.
What deduction did you make for that?
A. I didn't estimate that timber at all that I thought was damaged.
Q,.
Did you actually walk through areas that had been burned over?
A. Yes.
~.
How many thousand feet of timber would you guess had been injured by tire?
A. There wasn't so very much saw timber up where the fire was. It came down in
places to where there was timber, it wasn't so much. On the top of the mountain
is about where it was burned.
-129-
�Q. Mr. Turner, I am interested in getting your idea in the cost of cutting, sawing,
manufacturi ng and loading timber or lumber. What do you estimate it would cost
to cut or fell that timber on the Alexander tract per thousand :f'eet?
A. Do you include the whole manufacturi ng of it?
Q.
I mean what it would cost per thousand feet to cut it down?
A. Two dollars and fifty cents is what we counted; some places a little more and
some less.
Q.
That is what it would average on this?
A. Yes, something like that. We have always counted it that way.
Q.
I believe you have testified you thought from eight hundred to a thousand dollars
would cover the costs of putting the roads in proper shape?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
That would be about twenty cents per thousand feet of the amount of timber you
fount there?
A. That is what you say, yes.
Q.
Now, what is your estimate o:f' what is commonly known as skidding; that is, getting
the logs :f'rom the place where they were cut to the mill for the purposes of sawing?
A. Two dollars and a half.
Q,.
Two dollars and a mlf per thousand feet?
Q.
What would it cost to saw it per thousand feet?
Q.
A. Yes sir.
A. Five dollars.
Hauling from the place where manufacture d f.o.b. to the railroad?
A. For this particular tract?
Q..
Yes, on an average?
A. Five dollars for hauling and loading it on the car.
Q.
Is it the custom for lumbe:nnen, in estimating expense for putting lumber on the
market, to include what is known as~ operator's profit?
A. Well, the operator's profit -- I can go in there and cut this timber and saw
it and deliver it on the car tor fifteen dollars and have a good profit left,
which would be the operator's profit -- my pfofit.
BY MR. W.ALKEB:
Q.
In other words, the operator's profit is included 1& those prices you name?
A. I have my profit out of the 1'11'teen dollars; I have made a profit there; per-
haps two dollars and fifty cents a thousand.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q..
Would that include the purchase of the timber on the stump? If you would furnish the money and buy and sell the timber and do all the work, isn't there an
expense there in doing that?
A. Well , I would have a prof'i t in that fifteen dollars. I could go to you and
say, "I will cut your timber and put it on the car for fifteen dollars"; that
would cover expenses and profit.
Q..
Would it not take time and expense to sell it?
A. Yes, but I would have enough from my cutting and delivering and all. I'd have
enough. I have done that a many a time.
-130810
�BY MR. WALKER:
The fifteen dollars that we have been referri ng to does not include
it?
A. That is a questio n I have never heard raised until in this case;
have an operat or's profit after we would have cut and deliver ed the
much on board the cars. That we should have an extra profit there I
Q.
stumpa ge, does
that we would
timber for so
never heard of'.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
half,
When you go and buy a piece, you figure that it you get two dollars and a
you are getting enough?
A. Yes sir, I do. I never heard of that extra profit until this case.
BY MR. ARB.rRONG:
Q.
opinWell, we will leave out all questio ns of operat or's profit . What, in your
classall
of'
ion, would be a fair average price t.o.b. railroa d per thousan d feet
this
from
sawed up
es and kinds of the various species of timber that would be
tract?
is not the
BYMR. TAVENER: Questio n objecte d to because the elemen ts of' damage here
on the
value of the lumber f'.o.b. at the station ; it is the value of th~ lumber
stump in the tract.
the value
BY MR. AEMSTBONG: It is not obvious to this counse l how you may arrive at
.
market
the
on
it
for
get
Will
on the stump withou t knowing what you
at the
BY MR. TAVENER: It is an entirel y differe nt matter as to how. he may arrive
the
on
lumber
this
all
what
to
as
ing
value of the lumber on the stump and testify
stated
has
witness
The
d.
railroa
the
at
ed
Mount Vernon tract might be worth deliver
given
has
he
and
stump,
the
on
d
thousan
a
dollars
that he valued the lumber at five
to
is
go
can
state
the
as
f'ar
as
think
I
on.
valuati
his method of' dete:nn ining his
this
t of
questio n him as to his method of' determ ining, but not making it an elemen
that is
e
becaus
point,
g
shippin
t.o.b.
worth
be
case as to What that lumber would
not a part of' the damages in this case, nor an elemen t of' this case.
man can
BY MR. AlMSrRONG: Counse l replies that he does hot still unders tand how a
fix a value withou t knowing what he will get for it when sold.
board the
By the witnes s: There is no man can tell what that timber would fetch onon board the
car now, and I have stated $22.00 and $22.50 would be a fair price
it
car. That is What the other man arrived at, and I didn't dispute it; I think
have
you
When
would be fair. There is no man can tell just what it is worth.
you will
your orders and your contra cts signed up as to what you are to get, then
know.
ng to your estimQ.. And the variou s items of cost of getting it to the car, accordi
ate, would be Jl5.25 per thousan d?
A. Where did you get the twenty -five cents?
Q.
Wellt you said twenty -five cents for roads.
A. Oh no, I didn't say that.
Q..
Well, What did you say?
g it
A. I said fifteen dollars for taking it there and loading it, .ma.nuf-acturin
.
dollars
and getting it on the car; I said fifteen
Q.
But you said it would take about eight hundred or a thousan d dollars to make
-131-
-------
S(J
�the roads; that would be about twenty-five cents.
A. That is what somebody else said.
~.
You don't believe it would take eight hundred dollars then?
A. I don't know, but that would be my outside estimate of the cost of it, but I
hardly believe 1 t would cost that much.
Q.
Why was it you didn't go into and cruise the timber that Mr. Smith testified he
cruised?
A. I just didn't get to it; if I had kept on a while, I reckon I v.ould have.
Q.
When did you quit cruising?
A. I quit November 13, 1931.
Q..
Why didn't you continue cruising all the timber on the tract?
A. They hadn't told me to go any further.
Q.
What were your directions to start with?
A. To go in Two Mile Run, One Mile Run and follow the runs out up to the flat
woods, and I didn't get through Big Run until they told me they wanted me to go
in the woods above.
Q.
They you didn't go into the rest because noone told you to. Did you report to
the gentlemen who em.ployed you that there was more timber on the area than your
report showed?
A. Yes sir, I did.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
You were asked the question why you didn't continue further in your examination
of this land. Do you rece.J.l that you did exemine this land up to within just a
tew days of the time set for the hearing of this case?
A. I did.
Q.
Do you recall my meeting you a lle.y or two after you had completed your work and
had decided there was not sufficient time left before the hearing to do any more
work?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Do you recall whether we attE111pted to get still another witness living in the
mountain to go over that territory that you did not go over; do you know that
yourself, of your own knowledge?
A. Yes sir, you talked of that.
Q,.
There we.a no reason on your part for not going over 1 t other than the question of
the time for getting it done?
A. That . is the way I understood it.
Q.
It wasn't due to any doubt on your part that there was not as much timber on that
as the rest of the tract?
A. No sir, not a bit.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
The witness said he located saw mill seats and cruised that seat.
cruise both sides of the run as well as the one side?
-132•
Why didn't you
�A. The Big Run -- the opposite side is the branches that lead off. I cruised up
the Big Ibln along the flats and up against the hill, but where these tributaries extended back into the mountain, I didn't go into that.
BY MR. A-™STRONG:
Q.
Mr. Turner, did you make a notation of the number of mill si tee that came into
your mind as you cruised through the different locations?
A. No sir.
Q.
You didn't make a note of it?
Q.
And you haven't gotten any note of the number of feet that would go to any particular mill site?
A. I didn't estimate anything that was below thirty or forty thousand feet.
Q.
A. No sir.
So you couldn't state the number of mill sites or seats on the --A. On sane of the runs I could.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q,.
Mr. Campbell testified at great length in this case. and in his testimony he
spoke continuously of band mills - of operating band mills. Will you tell the
Commission whether it is customary to operate band mills in this section of the
country?
A. After having been in the timber business perhaps five or six years, then I
went to milling to see if we could run a band mill in our territory that we then
owned, comprising three thousand acres and others that I later bought of eighteen
hundred acres, and whether or not it would be profitable to run a band mill there
on a large scale, and I found that we couldn't. do it; it couldn't be done. You
take a small saw mill and an eighteen horse stock engine, capable of cutting four
or eight thousand feet a day was the only way you could get timber out of our
mountains at a profit.
Q.
Q.
Mr. Campbell was testifying about band mills
A. I concluded that he didn't know anything about timber in these mountains.
The type of timber work he had done must have been entirely different?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
He is e.lso one of the chief cruisers for the government, and made an estimate
here, and it has been admitted that he used field glasses in estimating the timber. Can a man estimate the number of thousand feet of timber in a tract where
he sees it at a distance looking through field glasses, and particularly, when
the leaves are on the branches of the trees?
A. I couldn't, not accurately.
Q.
You have testified that there was a considerable amount of dead chestnut at one
portion of this tract?
A. over a good deal of it.
Q.
You further testified that you did not include that in your estimate?
A. No sir.
Q.
It may be that we can show by a stave man that dead chestnut is of value. I don't
state that positively, but the man will be here to speak for himself, but I think
we should have in the record now a statanent from you as to the approximate number
of cords of dead chestnut that is sound that would be on this property.
-133-
�BY THE COMMISSION (Mr. Green): I understood he included that in cord wood.
By the Witness: I didn't include that in anything. The chestnut seemed to be far back
in the mountains. I didn't include that in anything.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Would you say there is a considerable amount of dead chestnut?
A. Yes sir,
but it is back in the moun-tain. Out this way, it seems to have been all cut out.
Q.
Can you give any idea as to the cordage?
A. Well, not intelligently.
Q.
Q.
Now, in referring to this yellow pine that is at the toe of the mountain, that
solid tract ot pine, wculd you state that that pine is now at a growth where it
would greatly increase in value in a relatively short period of time?
A. Well, after the market woold get back.
I
am
speaking as to the growth of the tree, not as to the price per thousand.
A. Yes sir, it would grow fast; it is thrifty, growing in the yellow pine flat
there that just suits such pine as that. It is the best distributed piece of
young pine timber that I ever seen.
Q.
Now, what is the number of teet, per tree, that you would say would be in some
of the pines on this property; describe the size of same of the trees.
A. Some of them would make two hundred and fifty feet, seventy-five feet, a
hundred feet and some two hundred and fifty feet.
Q.,
I expect it was the white pine up in the mountain that was larger?
A. Yes. There is some white pine there that, if it is solid, which it shows on
the outside that it is, will make two thousand feet.
Mr. Turner, on these ridges that divide these stream beds, did you attempt to
estimate every tree that was dotted about over those ridges?
A. I did not; I just took it from saw mill seats -- where I thought approximately so many feet could be brought in there.
Q,.
In other words, if there was a good tree or several good trees ---
A. Well, if they were good trees, they were included. We could have gone a little
turther and gotten them, but ---
Q,.
@$
Q•
But in this estimate you did not endeavor to get every stick of wood that could
be gotten over that area of land?
A. No sir, I did not, I went in there to estimate in my way the number of thousand feet that would be profitable to take out.
MR. A™STRONG:
Did you miss any?
A. Oh yes, I guess, some.
BY THE CCMM!SSION:
~-
You made out the saw mill seat where you thought it would be profitable to get it
out?
A. Yes air. If there was any good timber you can fetch it in when your mill is
down and everything ready, you might go a long ways further for a tree that is good.
-1348l'j
�BY MR. TAVEI.ffi:
Q.
Can you take an acre of that land near the Rockingham CountJ line and give the
Commission an idea of how much pine there would be on that acre, taking an average acre along the Rockingham County line?
BY MR. AaA:srRONG: Question objected to because the witness has disqualifie d himself
as to how much timber, by ocular ~stimate, would be in an acre.
A. Well, I have measured acres and cut the timber off; one acre at a time, and
as much as ten acres, and I therefore ascertain how much it averages per acre,
and how much on a certain acre, and I have found it averages from twenty-five
hundred feet up to thirty thousand. That sounds big on a piece of timber, but I
have it now standing. There is some e.cres there that might cut two thousand feet
of this young yellow pine, end there is some there that rould not cut practically
anything.
And f'urther this deponent saith not.
DR. A. s. KEMPER, a witness of lawful age, being duly sworn, deposes and says as
follows:
Q.
Dr. Kemper, will you state your age?
Q.
Your name?
Q.
Your place of residence?
Q,.
How long have you been a resident of Rockingham County?
A. All my life.
Q.
I refer to you as Dr. Kemper.
Q..
Where did you reaive your medical training?·
A. University College of Medicine , Richmond, and I went to a medical college too.
Q.
Were you in hospital training al.so at Ricbmoni?
A. As interne before end after my graduation -- student interne.
Q.
When did you return to Rockingham County?
A. I retumed to Rockingham County, I think, to live, in '96, but I had been several places end practiced medicine before returning.
Q.
Since your retum to Rockingham County, have you lived in that part of the county
which is close to this Mount Vernon tract?
A. I lived in Port Republic uP until twenty-thre e years ago, and then I moved down
the Shenandoah River.
A. Dr. A.
A. Sixty-five.
s.
Kem.per.
A. Lynwood, Virginia.
Are you a medical doctor?
-135-
A. I em.
�•
Q.
Your home on the Shenandoah River is virtually opposite this Mount Vernon tract?
A. Yes, you can see practically all of it.
Q. In your professiona l work,has it been necessary for you to be in close contact
with the people of this mountain section?
A. I have been at every house from Payne's Run to Hann's Run.
Q.
Your duties as a country doctor required you to be all over this mountain area?
A. It did.
Q.
Are you temiliar with the real .estate there as well as familiar with the people
in the section where the Mount Vernon tract is located?
A. I think so.
Q.
Dr. Kemper, have you frequently been called upon by the -Circuit Court of Rockingham County to act as appraiser in partition suits of real estate in this county?
A. Very often. Maybe I had better state here that for the last twenty-thre e.years
I really haven't been in active practice. I devoted a great deal of my time to
other things. I still do some.
Q.
What was the nature of the appraisemen ts that you would be called upon to make as
an appointtee of the Ci roui t Court of this county?
A. We would place values on the pieces that were to be cut off for the various
heirs; sometimes appraise the estate as a whole -- frequently do that.
Q.
When you are speaking of estates, rou are refering to real estate?
A. Yes.
Q.
Has this type of work required you to appraise mountain lands, and, if so, where
were those mountain lands located?
A. Not very much mountain land except in this North Mountain, but not very much
in the Blue Ridge.
Q.
Are you familiar with the Mount Vernon tract of land?
A. I have been all over it except some in the north end there. I have been around
that too, but I haven't been on i t.
Q.
Are you familiar ·w1 th sales of :real estate lying virtually adjacent to this ·tract
of land?
A. I am.
Q.
Will you tell the Commission what you know about the sale of land adjoining this
tract, and the purchase price of the same?
A. You gentlemen have been on the top of the Blue Ridge at Brown's Gap. The read
r.uas east there, and the mountain runs a little east to north, and there is a
triangle there of seventy-eig ht acres that sold for seven hundred dollars. This
pi ece of property had no water on it; it did have about six or seven acres of
sod, and the other was brush; no timber on it. This man had a water right, but
he had to drive his cattle across the road to water. That was sold for seven hundred dollars, before John A. Alexander got this tract.
Q.
Ot this seventy-eig ht acres, only six or eight was cleared land?
A. Six or eight.
Q.
No water on it?
A. Noa
-13681"
�Q.
No f'ence?
Q.
At seven hundred dollars for the tract, that would be a little better than ten
dollars an acre for that land?
A. Yea.
Q,.
Would you state whether the general character of the soil on that tract :I.a
similar to a considerable acreage of the land on the Mount Vernon tract?
A. Very much the same. It is a little rougher than much of the Mount Vernon
tract.
BY
THE
A. No, no fence.
COMMISSION:
Q.
What tract is that?
A. Mr. John Haunsberger sold that tract to George McAllister.
~.
Is it in Green County?
lives up toward Cave Station.
Q.
In the sale of that tract, the purchaser that bought it didn't have a certain
amount of money in it; did he have to take the tract in to save himself?
A. Oh no, Mr. Haunsberger doe1111't owe anybody.
A. No, in Albemarle. George McAllister, I believe,
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
You stated that he bought it as a grazing property?
Q.
Did he have any grazing land adjoining that?
A. No sir, I think not.
Q.
Proceed to any other tract that you may know of.
A. You are all acquainted with this Richland Heights property. In my opinion,
they sold that land for much more than it was worth, but the Norfolk and Western
Railroad advertised that property in pempllets all over the country, and they
got as high as fifty dollars an acre, and some say acres were sold for twenty
and thirty dollars.
Q.
And the type of people who purchased there were people who didn't know how to
handle this type of land?
A. They were city people, and they hadn't been used to digging up grubs, and
they didn't know anything about that property. Some of them stayed though.
Q.
Are you familiar with what is known as the Lancaster tract?
A. Yes, that was sold by a man by the name of Johnson. He had purchased this
property before Alexander.
Q.
He paid, according to the records, seventy-five thousand dollars for the entire
Mount Vernon tract?
A. I don't know what he paid. He sold about a thousand acres of it to a man
by the name of Lancaster, who cleared it and put in an orchard. He sold also to
-- I don't know just who -- Fink and Burrows. They bought about five hundred
acres there which they attempted to develope, and did sell it from twenty, thirtyfive and forty dollars an acre. That was sold to people from away :from here too.
Q.
What did Lancaster pay for it?
A. Ten dollars an acre; I think that is what his son told me.
-l37-
A. Yes.
�•
Has he resold any of that property?
A. I don't think R. V. Lancaster has sold any of his tract, but the Jackson
tract, north of it, was sold to Fink and Burrows. That was part of the tract purchased from Jackson. A part of that was resold at twenty-five and thirty dollars
an acre.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
Do you know of any land at the toe of the mountain, close to that little village
where you live, that has sold in the last three years as low as three dollars an
acre?
A. I don't know of any that has sold as low as three dollars. How far does the
toe of the mountain come; how far to the west boundary of the park area?
By the Commission - In behind John Mace there.
A. Oh, up in there; I thought possibly you meant any of it that came down there.
That is back of Grottoes. I misunderstood you.
Q.
Do you know of any of that land being sold as low as three dollars an acre?
A. No, I don't. I know of a tract right there that, I suppose thirty years ago,
sold for twelve thousand dollars, Without a house on it, but it has an orchard
on it.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
Q.
Whose orchard is that?
A. A man by the name of Schultz.
Is that close to the Mount Vernon tract of land?
A. I don't know for certain whether that touches any of it or not. --- That is
on the Jack Miller tract; it cuts up into the Mount Vernon tract; it was part of
the Mount Vemon tract.
Q.
Is the general character of the soil on this slope of land at the toe of the
mountain substantially the same as the orchard that you described, do you know?
A• That orchard land is possibly a little better grade. There is portions of that
land with a good sub-soil. That, of course, makes a better land than the sandy
land. The sandy land is better adapted to the growing of small fruits and vegetables.
Q.
I believe Mr. Lancaster made a failure of his fruit venture on that property?
A. He did.
Q.
Will you tell the Commission whether he went about the growing of those young
fruit trees in the proper manner, or not?
A. They cut the stumps as low as they could cut them, within three or four inches
of the ground, and laid it oft. I did the transit work for him; and he dug the
holes and set the tr!3es, and attempted to cross the land with a disk harrow.
Q.
Then, after that, he just let it go, did he?
A. Mr. Johnson was a partner, I think. He seemed to hold the money bags for the
crowd. Mr, Johnson was thrown by a horse in West Virginia e.nd killed, and the war
came on, and the money gave out, and it grew up in bushes; not a tree on it, I
think.
-138-
�~.
So, then, it was abandoned shortly after it was planted?
A. Yes.
Q.
At the top of the mountain, over in Albemarle County, did you have an occasion
to look into a tract there as a grazing propositi on?
A. I did.
~.
Will you describe that to the Commissioners?
A. This tract of land, I judge, is a mile and a half from the top of Brown's
Gap, a little outh to east. It is known as Cedar Mountain; a tract of ten hundred acres; some smooth and some very rough. The property was sold to settle up
the estate, the Sam Garrison Estate. I went with R. B. Walker and James Lee to
Charlotts ville for the purpose of purchasin g this piece ot land, but when we got
there, we found that there was a timber right on it, and we didn't bid on it;
but it was sold, and sane man in Charlotts ville, a colored man, he ran that property to forty-fiv e or forty-six hundred dollars, notwithst anding the fact that it
had this timber right on it.
~.
You mean a reservatio n to cut the timber?
Q.
How many acres?
Q.
Then, that tract, free of timber, sold for virtually four or four-fift y an acre?
A. Something like that, but that tract had a house on it, a mountain house.
BY
Q.
A. Yes.
A. About a thousand; supposed to be that.
THE COMMISSION:
What was the amount he paid?
A. I think about forty-fiv e hundred dollars.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
That timber right was absolutel y uncertain as to the time of removal, was it not?
A. Yes. We wouldn't touch it at all; we wouldn't give him a thousand dollars for
it, and we would have given him possibly six thousand dollars for it, if it had
not been for the timber right. The attorney that sold the property said that he
wouldn't have more than a reasonabl e time to get it off, but we djdn't know what
the"reasa nable time"wool d be.
Q.
BY
Q.
What year was that?
A. About 1912 or 1913, possibly as late as 1914.
THE COMMISSION :
Did you think this fellow paid too much for it?
A. It was more than I would pay for it. I told Mr. Walker that I wasn't in on it;
I t old Mr. Walker that. Those people in the mountain, you have to handle them with
gloves. They can do you lots of damage, you know.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
You said you may have bought the property for six thousand dollars but for the
timber right?
A. Yes sir. That right might have run tor a year or tor ten or fifteen years.
Q.
How did the general character of that land compare with the Mount Vernon tract
for grazing purposes?
-139-
019
�A. A good deal of that land had been fanned , and it would take sane time to
get that in grazing land. It isn't such an easy matter to get grass after faming, but the other was rough and had timber on it . I don't think there is very
much differen ce.
Q.
While Mr. Jacob Yost was the owner of this Mount Vernon tract of land,and Mr.
Perkins was taking care of it for him, did you have any negotia tions with either or both of them for the purchase of a part of this tract tor grazing purposes ?
A. With Perkins . The same people, Mr. Lee and Mr. Walker and I, went up to look
at this land on the east or north fork of Big Run, up at the top of the mountai n.
There is a narrow strip there, and he asked us ten dollars an acre for that.
There is a little of it cleared, and a little in ·corn when we went there. That
land required fencing and clearing ; same of it bad been cleared. But there we.a
a woman there claimed a piece of the land, Texaun Garrison . Well, we wouldn! t
conside r that property then, somebody claiming a piece of the land. I don't
know that she had any right , but we didn't want it.
Q..
How many acres was she claiming ?
A. As I remember, forty; I em not positive .
Q.
Did you conside r that the price that was being asked by Mr. Perkins was too great
a price for the property , if the title could have been straight ened out as to the
forty acres?
A. I thought it was high enough for the land, due to the fact that it was going
to require a whole lot of fencing, and it had bushes on it too.
Q.
How much acreage was there in that tract?
A. Two hundred and fifty to three hundred acres is what he thought he had there
to sell.
Q.
Did you hear Mr. Turner testify as to a tract of about three hundred acres, suitable for grazing purpose s at the top of the mountain ?
A. I did.
.
Q.
Is this the same?
Q.
At the head of Big Run?
Q.
Now, do you know of any other sales in the immedia te vicinity of this property
yourself ?
A. About four years ago J. F. Latell purchase d, I think,ab out seventy -five acres
of land from Annie Austin; that is at the furnace . I don't know what he paid
for it; he said he paid fifteen hundred , and the deed, I think, shows fifteen
hundred, but whether he paid that or not, I don't know; about seventy -five or
seventy- eight acres. Latell is in the real estate busines s; that is his busines s,
and I don't know that he has any other business . He purchase d this land, he told
me, to resell and make some money on it.
•
A. The same land, yes.
A. Yes.
Q. Are you familia r with the Tom Harris tract?
A.- I don't know Tom Harris.
Q.
. Q,.
you recall a tract over in Albemarle County which Mr. Hemmer sold at public
auction, about four hundred acres?
A. No, I don't reman.ber anything about that •
Do
Seven miles west of White Hall?
A. No, I don't know the tract at all.
- 140020
�Q.
Mr. Charlie Winfield, ot Broadway, is interested in, on North Mountain, of seven hundred acres?
A. Yes.
Q.
Do you know whether he has received an offer from the government to purchase that
land?
A. He told me they wanted to buy it at $3.50, but he wouldn't sell it at that.
Q,.
Is there any timber on that seven hundred acre tract?
A. He says not.
Q.
Now, I would like for you to tell this Commission what sort of streams there are
on this tract, with regard to fishing; trout streams?
A. I reckon that would consist of Payne's Run as one stream; that is not a very
good fishing stream. The next little stream, Stull's Run, that is not a fishing
propositi on. The next run is Madison Run, I think they have been calling it Miller
Run all the time, that is not a fishing propositi on. The next one north is Deep
Run; that is not a fishing propositi on. The next one is Lewis Upper Run; that is
not a fishing propositi on. The next one is Lewis Lower llun; that is a good fishing propositi on. Then there is a little stream, Hangman's Run; there are no fish
in that. Big "Bun has been a wonderful fishing stream ever since I ce.n remEl!lber.
The next one is Mile Run; it does fairly well to fish in. Two Mile Run is a good
fishing stream. They haven't any further streems down there that amount to anything. The streams north of that don't amount to anything.
Q.
Are those streams used by the public a great deal for trout fishing?
A. Yes, especiall y Big Run and Two Mile Run.
Q,.
How would you compare those two runs with other trout fishing streams that you
know of in the state?
A. I don't know of any in the state that have been as good as Big Run. I've
fished a good many streems back in these mountains here, and they don't have as
fine fishing as Big Run.
Do you know a tract of land which
BY THE C<'.:.MMISSION:
Q,.
Better than the Rapidan?
A. I guess they put fish enough in there to make that an A-l stream.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q,.
I have asked you, Dr. Kemper, to go upon this Mount Vernon tract and nake what
you consider a fair appraisal as to it's value. Will you tell the Commission
what divisions of land you have made and what values you have reached and how
you have reached them?
A. Mr. Good came to see me and asked me to go on this property w1 th him, and he
said we would have only a short time in which to make the appraisal . That meant
that we could not go classifyi ng it as we had been classifyi ng. We took very
little account of the timber; but the first day out we went up and viewed this
piece known as the two thousand acres south of. the old furnace up there, running
up to Payne's 'Run. I had been on that property often; there used to be some
house on it, but I hunted over it too -- hunted pheasants and quail. We talked
the matter over and decided we would put that in one classific ation, lilich we did.
I appraised that piece of property at eight dollars an acre.
BY THE CC!tlMISSION:
Q.
Is that the tract at the toe of the mountain?
-141-
321
�A. Yes, south of the furnace and running up to Payne's Run.
Q.
Did you include the timber in your valuatio n?
A. Yes.
· BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
What other classifi cation did you make of the Mount Vernon tract?
A. There is one piece of grazing land, the one just spoken of here, that I apprais ed as
two hundred and fifty acres, at five dollars e.n acre.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
North of' the furnace?
A. No sir; that is the grazing piece up on top of the mountai n.
Q.
What did you put that at?
A. Five dollars .
A. (cont'd. ) The watershe ds, from the map we took it there might be about nine
thousand acres, Two Mile, Big Run and Lewis Upper Run, all three, about nine thousand acres, which I valued at five dollars an acre. Then, the ridge land, the land
that has no streams on it to amount to anything , but still some water on it, about
eleven thousand acres; I put that at three dollars an acre.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q,.
How many acres was that?
A. I thihk about eleven thousand or eleven thousand two hundred and fifty; somethin g
like that.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
In other words, the total acreage there would be nine thousand in watershe d and
eleven thousand in ridge land?
A. I think maybe there is a couple hundred acres more than that.
Q.
Well, approxim ately, and two thousand in land at the toe of' the mountain ?
A. And two hundred and fifty acres of grass land.
Q,.
That is twenty-t wo thousand two hundred and fifty acres. Now, you were includin g
there the land in Augusta, Green and Albemar le, as well as the lend in Rockingham
County?
A. Yee, the whole tract; that is the whole tract, I think. The ditferen c e there
would be in the number o:f acres in what is known as the ridge land. It would not
affect the two thousand acres or the two hundred and fifty acres or the nine thousand acres.
Q.
Now, the Augusta County line runs through a part of that two thousand acre tract?
A. Yes.
Q.
Now, the estimate of eight dollars an acre that you put on that tract there does
not apply to the Augusta County as well as the --A. The whole thing, estimate d at two thousand acres. I thought possibly there would
be a little bit more; the maps looked as though two thousand acres would be about
right.
-142-
sn l
�Q.
Do you recall what the total value placed on that property is , according to your
estimate?
A. No, just figure it out; I think about ninety-six thousand dollars.
Q..
Ordinarilly, ~ctor, the cattle grazing in the mountains that way cannot do well
later than about August?
A. That's right .
Q.
Is there anything about this particular tract that makes grazing cattle profitable later than that date?
A. A lot of this land will keep cattle well up until October. They will fatten
off the bushes . I have had cattle on the Eyler place down there and the Bagoon
place and the Sellers place down in Simmon's Gap and up here on the Kraun place,
but they fatten better on the range than at any of these places.
Q..
you know whether a large number of cattle have been grazed on this Mount Vernon tract?
A. Some years ago; there was a little piece of land in Big Run owned by Frank
Sipe, sixty of seventy acres, and he would frequently take three or four hundred
cattle in there.
Q.
Do
Did they do well?
A. Yes; they took them back.
I have had my cattle in what is known as Dundore
Hollow; that is the Brown's Gap hollow, it is known as that now, Deep Run; I have
had cattle in there too. These runs are not very far apart. They have done well,
better, in fact, than in any enclosed pasture.
r·
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q. Do you know whether the owner received any revenue for this grazing?
A. I don't suppose so. That has been free property so far as I have known.
Q.
There was something said here that the laurel poisoned the cattle.
A. No, jt wouldn ' t poison the cattle. Sometimes, in taking the cattle across the
mountain, if they have been on dry feed, they will bite oft that laurel, and it
will make them sick, but it won't likely kill . It has the same affect that bella
donna would have on a human; but after a day or so, the cattle will not touch
laurel.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
You never had any bad affects from pasturing your cattle on that section?
A. Oh, no .
Q..
Doctor, are you familiar with any portion of this property on which there is located a large amount of rock; in fact , it was testified here by the state that there
was a section up in the mountain on which there was a great deal of rock at one
place. Now, if you are familiar with that, I wish you would tell the Commission
of it, and of what use that rock can be put to.
A. In practically all of these streams you have a few to a good many acres of
loose rock ranging from small rock, but they can be put to crushing with a steam
shovel; you don't have to blast them or clean any dirt off. The state has been
paying from five to ten cents for rock; they get the dirt off and so on. Now, I
think the state is paying for stone out here $1.35 a yard, the other man to deliver.
In building roads, most any modern road would need from eight to ten feet of stone;
and if they do, and they will build a road across Brown's Qap sometime, and I would
-143-
�rather have those rocks there then than any thousand acres of the land. I consider those rocks very valuable there. You can't build roads without them.
Q.
Q.
You consider the particular rocks on this place of having a large
A. They are right on the road and right as you enter Brown's Gap.
been contracted for from Panore.ma. to the Spottswood Trail, and we
surveyors are being sent out for the purpose of laying out a road
this mountain from the Spottswood Trail on through to Waynesboro.
commercial value?
The road has .
understand that
along the top of
Will that road be in close proximity to a great part of this stone?
A. It is four and a half, possibly five miles from this stone to the top of Brown 's
Gap.
BY
THE
COAMISSION:
Do you know what the state is paying for that per yard?
A. $1.35 a yard.
Q..
Do you know what they pay for it when they get it out themselves?
A. Anywhere from five to fifteen cents. Someone up here at Port Republic, just
above the bridge on North River, they paid fifteen cents for the stone in there,
and there was a lot of dirt on that. I don't know whether the state paid that or
not; it was on the State Aid Road. I sold some from Gordonville to Barbersville
at three cents.
Q.
Did you have to move any dirt?
A. No.
(By Mr. Tavener to Mr. Green, of the Commission:- Do you know of any contract)
!that Mr. Childs, of near Strasburg, has for furnishing rock to the State?
)
(By Mr. Green:- He gets five cents.)
CROSS EXAMINATION Ff MR. AIMSTRONG:
Q.
Dr. Kemper, I believe,in response to a question of Mr. Tavener's, you said you
had very little experience in appraising Blue Ridge Mountain land?
A. No, I haven't had much experience in appraising Blue Ridge.
Q.
The only experience you have had was in North Mountain?
Q.
What experience have you had as to valuing timber?
A. Very little; I have sawed some timber, but I have had very little.
Q.
You stated that you put five dollar an acre on sane of the land, which included
the timber value of so many acres. How much value did you put on the timber?
A. Very little.
Q.
You placed most of the value on the soil?
A. Most of the value on the land.
Q.
Q.
A. Yes.
•
On that sixty-eight acres of land which Mr. Haunsberger bought, how much of that
was in grass; was it not practically all in grass?
A. No sir.
How much in grass?
A. Six or eight acres. Maybe there is a little more
on it now, but at the time of the purchase there was about that much. Possibly,
that man has cleared up some of it, and today it may have fifteen or twenty acres.
-144-
�Q.
You stated that he bought it as a grazing property, and there wasn't any grass
on it. Why?
A. There were six or eight acres there, and he could clear more of it.
Q. He paid seven hundred dollars for it?
A. Yes.
Q.
This other land that the three of you were figuring on buying over in Albemarle
County, how did that compare as to fertility, with the Mount Vernon tract?
A. It may have been a little better, but there was a good deal of that smoother
land that had been tanned for a long time. It's right hard to get grass after
land llas been worn down. ·
Q.
You say you were willing to give only one thousand dollars for this one thousand
acres of land, because of the fact that the timber right had been sold on it?
A. I wouldn't have given anything for it then.
Q.
You didn't think the soil was worth anything?
A. We would have given as much as six thousand dollars for it.
Q.
But, just for the soil, you were willing to give only one thousand dollars?
A. I wouldn't give anything for a diamond ring if there was a rattlesnake down
there where I had to get it.
Q.
The thousand acres which you refused to buy in Albemarle County, how much would
you give for it today?
A. I don't know.
•
What 110uld you have given tor it at the time?
A. Six and possibly a little more than six.
A. Yes.
Q.
An acre?
Q.
The Latell land which you spoke of as being sold for fifteen hundred dollars,
wasn't that land mostly cleared?
A. Well, no, not mostly cleared; if I was right in the amount, and I think I was
close to it, there was about twenty acres.
Q.
Was it on the road?
Q.
You spoke of having grazed cattle on this tract. When was that; how long ago?
A. Twelve or fourteen years, and seven or eight years before that.
Q.
Does anyone graze cattle on this property now?
A. Yes, sane do every year, but Mr. Shover had some in there last year.
Q.
What do you pay per month for pasture in this moun ta.in land?
A. About a dollar and fifty cents a head a season; a dollar twenty-five and a
dollar seventy-five, something like that. I never heard of it being less than a
dollar though for taking care --
Q.
Didn't a good deal of that represent the labor in looking after the cattle?
A. Maybe you started out thinking you were paying for some labor, but you never
got any.
~-
You stated that cattle did very well there.
in there now?
A. I have quit grazing cattle.
A. Yes, right on the road.
-145-
Why is it you don't graze cattle
�BY THE C<lv1MISSION:
Q.
About that Latell property ; when did it cane into hie possessi on?
A. Possibly four years ago, I think.
Q.
Was the house abandoned then?
A. No, Ann Austin was living there.
Q.
It was in better conditio n then?
A. No, it hasn't been in better conditio n for thirty years. It is about like that
Mace house up there.
Q.
Was that sixty- eight acres of land, bringing seven hundred dollars, fenced?
A. No sir, no fence and no water.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q..
Any timber?
A. No. There was a little piece of grazing land. There is a little road up east
by north, and up on there there is about six or eight acres; it might be twenty or
twenty- five now.
JIY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
That wood tract you have out there, did that come off this Mount Vernon tract?
A. No, that was known as the Raynors tract.
Q..
We have no testimon y as to what you paid for that. Possibly , it might be well to
get it in this record.
A. No sir, you have not, because I don't know what I paid for it. The Conrad
Realty Company sold it. Mr. Good laid that off. This was a detached piece of land
of the property of D. P. Schuler . They wold all the other property , and this piece
was put up and a men by the name of Ralston purchase d it at, I think, three dollars
an acre, and took all the money he had to make the down payment . He was a bootlegger, I reckon. He came in the field the next day and asked me 1f I would let him
have some money to go to the fair; that he vould let me have part of this lend. So,
I became the purchas er of half the land. I think in about thirty days the
payment ·
came due and he had no money, so I had to make that payment . Mr. Good said he would
make the deed and give me half of it; just to wait end I ~uld get all of it. In
November, he came to me and wanted to sell me the land, and I paid him fifty dollars
and about a year and a half house rent and some feet and aome corn. That is what I
paid. I assumed the obligati on, paid him fifty dollars, gave him his house rent and
some feed and what not.
BY MR. ARIBTRONG:
~-
In regard to this eleven thousand acres that you put three dollars an acre value on;
I believe it has been testifie d that there is no timber on this. How could you get
your money back on that; what revenue could you get to even pay your taxes?
A. The interes t on that would be eighteen cents. You could get it out of it grazing
cattle, picking huckleb erries, and off the locust posts. That land grows locusts.
Locust does not grow on real poor land; --it takes pretty good lend. If the land is
poor, the locust will make it good.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
Your testimon y with regard to your own tract recalled one roatter which I have heard
-146-
---- ---- ---- ----
82':,
�you speak of. Did you not make an offer to purchase a tract of land close to this
Mount Vernon property at twenty dollars an acre, and the owner refused to sell at
that price? .
A. Yes, I did.
Q.
Will you name the party and where the land is located?
A. I don't know whether you are familiar with the property owned by John Shifflet,
right up Lewis Upper Run. The upper end of it has been cut over a 11 ttle more than
the other. I offered John c. Wheat twenty dollars an acre for that land, and he
refused twenty dollars for it. That was about 1913, 1914 or 1915. I wanted it as
a wood proposition.
BY MR. AIMSTRONG:
q. How does that land compare with the Mount Vernon tract?
A. No buildings on it; some timber that has been cut over; ten or fi:tteen and maybe
twenty cords of wood on it.
Q.
Is it better than the Mount Vernon tract?
A. Some as good and some not as good. There is a lot of good land on the Mount Vernon tract. It is a big tract of land. It will take a man a day or so to walk over it
unless he is a powerful good walker. I was buying this land as a wood property and
not as a :t'lirming property.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
In your statement about the rock material :for road building, you only considered a
value that the state, in building a road, would pay for the rocks?
A. Yes, the state. I did not consider the Federal Government at all in this. I
don't think they would want it, because they can get it up somewhere else. They
must open up someplace up there.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
You mean to state that that stone, as it is there today, has a canmercial value?
A. It has. If they had a hard road in there,it could be hauled out. They are
trucking stone anywhere from a half mile to twenty miles.
Q.
Are you familiar with the J. W. Hinkle land of about three hundred acres of grazing land?
A. I have been on it, lfut only a very small portion of it. I must say that I em
not familiar with it.
Q,.
That does border the Mount Vernon tract of land, does it not?
A. It borders this piece that we have been talking about.
•
Q.
It is adjacent to the two hundred and fifty acre tract?
A. Yes •
That tract is being claimed by both J. W. Hinkle and the claimants in this suit?
A. No, I thought that had all be thrashed out. I know that was supposed to have .
been, at one time, a portion or the Mount Vemon tract.
And further this deponent saith not.
-147-
�P. B. T. GOOD, a witness of lawtul age, being duly sworn, deposes and says as
follows:
MR.
Q• . Will you state your full name, please?
•
•
A. P. B. T. Good.
Q,.
Your age?
A. Sixty-five.
Q..
Your place of resideme?
A. McGaheysville, Virginia.
Q.
In Rockingham County?
A. Yes.
Q.
Your occupation?
A. Surveyor, Rockingham County.
Q. Mr. Good, you have served, I believe, in the House ot Delegates, as a representative of Rockingham for three successive terms, have you not?
A. I have.
Q..
I believe you have been County Surveyor for Rockingham County tor a period of
fifteen years?
A. I have.
Q.
How long have you been a surveyor?
A. Thirty or thirty-five years.
Q,.
How long have you been a resident of McGe.heysville, in Rockingham County?
A. I lived in Stonewall District, the district in which McGaheysville is located,
about forty-tive years.
Q,.
As a resident of that district, and as a surveyor, have you had occasion to be on
what is known as the Mount Vernon tract of land?
A. I have been on the Mount Vernon tract very many times in making surveys w1 thin
and with.out the boundaries.
Q.
Will you state to the Commission some ot the surveys that you have made within the
boundaries of the Mount Vernon tract?
A. I surveyed about five hundred acres within the Mount Vernon tract for John A.
Alexander in about 1918. I surveyed a tract of eight hundred acres for A. J.
Downs. Those are the most recent surveys that I have made.
Q,.
In addition to that, did you not also survey over the old McCall tract?
A. Yes sir. I more recently surveyed the three hundred acre patent of Henry Mace,
land belonging to the John A. Alexander creditors, and the two hundred forty-eight
acres. That has been about two or three years ago.
Q.
That last survey is right in what we have called the toe of the mountain, where
the two thousand acre tract lies?
A. It is, up on Brown' a Gap road, on the northeast side of the two thousand acre
tract. Just a few years ago I was called upon, or sent by the Court, to survey
all the lands of John W. Palmer, owned in fee simple, and mineral rights, and report back to the Court so that they could make some settlSllBilt of the Palmer Estate,
and all of his land lies in the Payne's Run section, on the southern part of this
two thousand acre tract, about which we speak.
-148-
�Q,.
Q.
We have referred several times in the talcing or this testimony to a tract or land
on the northeaster n corner or the Mount Vernon tract, new claimed by J.W.Hinkle,
and containing about three hundred acres. Is that adjacent to what was tonnerly
tanned the Moton Shifflet tract?
A• . It is.
Will you point out on the Haws Survey the location or the Moton Shifflet land?
A. It lies near the top of the Blue Ridge Mountains, about a mile and a halt south-
west from "the top of the mountain at Simmon's Gap.
cil mark around it.
Q.
Q,.
It is indicated here by a pen-
This map indicates that the Moton Shifflet land, at one time, was within the boundaries of the Mount Vernon Survey?
A. It does.
Was it, at one time, within the boundaries ot this survey?
A. I think it was always within the boundary of the Mount Vernon survey, but it was,
eVidently, excluded by Mr. Haws when he made this survey about 1888.
Q.. Has that tract then, owned by Moton Shifflet and now claimed by J.
extended further over into the Mount Vernon Survey?
A. It has.
w.
Hinkle, been
Q,.
Approximate ly how many acres of land, in addition to what on the map appears to be
Moton Shifflet's land, is now claimed by J • • Hinkle?
A. I think that Mr. Hinkle's title papers indicate that he has sanething over two
hundred acres; but how much over, I am not able to say. The records will show, and
from the map, I take it that the Moton Shifflet land excluded from the survey,can' t
be more than ninety or a hundred acres.
Q.
Now, about how much more land is J. w. Hinkle claiming now than is covered in this
tract, shown on the map as being in the name of Moton Shifflet?
A. I couldn't be very d:finite in my answer to that question, neither do I know the
amount of land he claims or the amount that his deed calls for, which is a matter
of record here in the Clerk's office.
Q..
Did you make a survey for Moton Shifflet when he attempted to take up a part of this
Mount Vernon land?
A. I did not. From what -I have been told, that was done many years ago • .
'
Q,.
Did you make any survey about the Moton Shifnet tract?
A. I did.
Q.
Will you tell the Commission what that was?
A. Some years later, when Mr. Hinkle ·bought this tract of land from Berne.rd Shiff-
let, who had formerly acquired it from Sellers and others, I made a survey on this
mountain top in connection with the old home place of Moton Shifflet, quite a considerable parcel of land. It was just located on that mountain top, according to
the directions of the people who claimed they owned and possessed this mountain top.
Q..
What was the acreage of tmt survey?
A. I would have to refer to the deed, and I think the deed from Bernard Shifflet
to J. W. Hinkle will indicate the acreage.
Q.
Will you look up that deed and report back to the Commission, after you leave the
stand?
A. I will.
-149-
�•
~.
In other words, the tract that you are now speaking of, whatever acreage the deed
may show, is now claimed by the claimants in this suit, and also by J. W. Hinkle?
A. Yes.
~.
Now, I asked you about these surveys within the Mount Vernon tract of real estate.
Have you made a number of surveys in the Blue Ridge Mountains close to the Mount
Vernon Survey?
A. I believe I have surveyed practically all o:t the land on the northwestern
boundary of this Mount Vernon tract, from Payne's Run to Elkton, in the last
twelve or fifteen years. I don't know ot any that has escaped me, at the present
time. I:t you want the names of those tracts, I can enumerate them.
Q,.
All I desire to show is that you are familiar w1 th the lands generally in the Blue
Ridge mountains about the Mount Vernon tract. Now, I have asked you, Mr. Good, to
go upon what we have referred to here as the land at the toe of the mountain 1 and
make an estimate of the acreage of land there that is available for agricultural
or grazing purposes, and to make an estimate o:t the acreage and also to estimate
the value of that portion of the Mount Vemon tract. Have you done that?
A. I have. As I stated a while ago, I em somewhat familiar with most of this two
thousand acre tract of land. The Mace Patent covered a good bit of this tract.
Then, I me.de some surveys in Augusta County on the south end of this tract, joining up and on to this two thousand acre tract. This two thousand acres is only
approximated by me; I think there is that quantity of land there.
~.
Now, what valuation did you place on that tract?
A. Am I permitted to refer to my notes; I wruld likely be more accurate.
have in my notebook and transcribed - -
Q.
I also
Will you just describe to the Commission the classifications of land that you
made, and describe each tract and state the value that you placed on the different classifications of land?
A. We classified the land at the toe of the mountain on the southwest side of
Madison Gap and designated as the Mount Vernon Furnace tract, of t110 thousand
acres; then, the second classification was watershed class. That includes the
watersheds, Two }ille Eun, Mile Run, Big Run and Lewis Lower Run, and we estimated, in these four watersheds,nine thousand acres; and the third class, we put
in a ridge class, along with several watersheds, which includes the watershed
of Lewis Upper Run, Deep Run, Brown's Gap to Dundore's Hollow, as it is sometimes called, Miller's Run, Swamp Run, the upper waters; the lower parts are
covered by this two thousand acre tract, and Payne's Run. Those watersheds are
included with the ridge land of eleven thousand five hundred acres. We determine the acreage by What is assessed to John A. Alexander in Rockingham County.
The assessment books show that he is assessed 22,700 acres in Rockingham County.
I take it that includes the entire boundary survey of the John A. Alexander land.
I don't know that any of his lands are assessed in Green or Albemarle County.
The greater part of it lying in Rockingham County, I took it that it was all
assessed in Rockingham County. It is usually assessed where the greater part
of the tract is located.
(By Mr. Tavener to Mr. Stoneburner:- I Will ask Mr. Stoneburner whether or not
any part of the Mount Vernon tract is assessed for te.xation in any of the counties in which it lies other than in Rockingham County.
Reply by Mr. Stoneburner:- It 1s all assessed in Rockingham County.)
-150..
�n.
By the Witnes s:- I have indicat ed my classif ication in answer to your questio
hundred
two
There is one I omitted ; that is the grazing land. I estima ted
loacres of grazing land in the Mount Vemon tract, and this grazing land is
Run.
Big
of
cated on top of the Blue Ridge Mounta in at or near the head waters
in
Your estima te of two hundred acres of grazing land at the top of the mounta
does not include the land claimed by J. W. Hinkle , does it?
A. Yes sir, it include s a part of that land. I em not able to say how much;
and the reason I include d,With in the twenty- two hundred acres,p art of that ridge
tract is becaus e I em very certain that the southe m end of that mounta in exhas no connec tion With the Moton Shiffl et tract that was recogn ized as an
clusion from the Mount Vernon Survey in 1888.
Q.
BY
THE COMMISSION:
Q.
You couldn 't approx imate that, could you, Mr. Good?
A. By referri ng to that deed I could make a fairly good guess.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q. After you examine that deed, will you report again and see if you can testify
that point?
on
it.
A. In reachin g a conclu sion in my mind, I wruld say around a hundre d acres of
Q.
Will you verify that by examin ing the deed?
.
A. I will as far as I can, becaus e it will depend upon approx imation largely
d
thousan
two
the
are,
s
ication
classif
these
The valuati ons I have placed on
acres at Mount Vemon Furnac e, $8.50 per acre, total $17,00 0.00. This tract
has quite a thick growth of young timber on it, and all land about this tract
all
in clearin g and in croppin g is splend id crop yieldin g land of practic ally
few
a
for
except
smooth
ably
reason
is
It
kinds, fine corn and wheat land.
places , and becaus e of its close proxim ity to market and to the Norfolk andes,
Western Railroa d, only two miles from this tract,a nd to the town of Grotto
it
making it an easy place to market any timber that may be on it, and then,
were
they
when
d
travele
ly
former
and
has roads to it that people travel today
the
going over this land. It is a near way from the Brown' s Gap road through
of
out
leading
road
Run
s
Payne'
middle of this tract in order to get on the
Grotto es; and becaus e of the charac ter of the land and its proxim ity, $8.50
would be a reasona ble valuati on on it.
Q.
Will you proceed to your next classif ication ?
A. The second class is nine thousan d acres in watersh ed. As I stated a while
ago, I determ ined that somewhat from the area indicat ed on the map that is
the
drained by the streams , as well as my famili arity with the stream s. For
fishing
trout
the
for
ins
mounta
last thirty years I have been going into those
of
that these stream s furnish , and I have classif ied these nine thousan d acres
valuamy
and
Run,
Lower
Lewis
watersh ed, which include Two Mile, Mile, Big and
tion on those watersh eds is $5.00 per acre.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
A. Yes. Being a fishenn an, I would natura lly
Exclus ive of timber?
they
hate to see that timber taken out. All fishing stream s are valuab le when
are well wooded.
-151-
831
�Q.
About this water shed area that you have place d a value of
five dolla rs uponJ
how does that water shed compare with other acrea ges withi
n, say, fiftee n or
twent y miles of the Mount Vernon tract , for sceni c beaut
y, recre ation al facil ities ; I am refer ring there to natur al facil ities and the
uses that that property can be put to as a recre ation al groun d?
A. I don't know of any other twent y mile sectio n of the Blue
Ridge Moun tains
that is bette r suite d for recre ation than this parti cular
sectio
n of the watershe ds of these stream s; none that exceeds Big Run as a
recre ation al groun d
and prese rve for fish and game. It has occur red to me that
the park would not
be comp lete witho ut these oppo rtunit ies for recre ation ,
and
I
will not even exclude :Mr. Hoov er's fishin g groun d on the Rapid an.
Q.
You say that this land is parti cular ly well suited for park
and recre ation al
purpo ses?
A. It certa inly is, accor ding- to my estim ation .
~.
Has it been consi dered in the past as a place of unusu al
advan tage for recre ationa l purpo ses; I mean befor e the act of the legis latur e
of Virgi nia propo sing to condenm these lands for natio nal park purpo ses?
A. It was an idea that preva iled a few years ago with
Mr. Alexa nder. He discusse d h with me, knowing my famil iarity with these stream
s, and he thoug ht,
at that time, to make these stream s, espec ially Big Run,
a fishin g prese rve;
and then, there were some local peopl e, a few years ago,
were under taking to
organ ize an assoc iation to make all three of these streem
s, or four of them in
fact, a fishin g prese rve or game sanct uary.
Q.
Were you one of that group ?
Q.
A. I was.
Were there other promi nent citize ns in this count
ested in that?
A. Yes, quite a few, and I don't belie ve that, ifyweinter
were at liber ty to do so
now, we would have any troub le in organ izing a very subst
antia l club for making that an area for
recre ation . We have a club at Ralei gh
stream s go down, and we have troub le keepin g them stock ed, Sprin gs. Those
but we would n't have
that troub le here.
Q.
BY
Q,.
Mr. Camp bell, on cross exami nation , made the statem ent that
there was value ·to
this prope rty, but that we didn' t know what it was, that
we were not famil iar
with our own prope rty. We asked him to what he was refer
ring, and he said that
was one of the best locat ions for recre ation al purpo ses that
that put a value on the land separ ate and distin ct from valuehe knew of. Does
s menti oned on
this Blue Ridge Moun tain land?
A. It certa inly does, in my estim ation .
THE
COMMISSION:
In puttin g it in that condi tion. what would you say it would
cost?
A. I would n't say it would requi re a great deal of money
. Some roads would have
to be impro ved. The stream is now well stock ed and has been
for a great many
years . All that would have to be done is take charg e of it
and keep peopl e out.
Peopl e trave l for miles to these stream s; they come from
all
Norfo lk and Weste rn line and camp in there . The stream wouldpoint s along the
restoc ~ itsel f,
if you would keep it from being abuse d.
-152-
�Q.
In making up your estima te of the nine thousan d acres on these watersh eds,
did
you go to the top of the mounta in?
A. Yes, where the water flows into these stream s is include d. I believe
I have
stated my valuati on of that area.
BY MR. TAVENE:R:
Q,.
This act of the legisla ture looking toward the condem nation of these lands
does
not allow the Commission to take into consid eration the value for nation
al park
purpos es, but the questio ns I have asked you in regard to park and recrea
tional
purpos es does not necess arilly mean nation al park purpos es, and I want that
point to be plain in your testimo ny, that you are referri ng to recrea tional
purposes genera lly, regard less of whethe r the park is ever establi shed or not.
I
mean that if the presen t owners of that area saw fit to take advanta ge of
it,
it could be made valuab le as a recrea tional ground to them.
A. I don't think a park would be comple te Withou t the opport unities that these
watersh eds would furnish .
Q.
Alrigh t now, proceed with your valuati on?
A. I believe I stated a while ago that I estima ted two hundred acres of grazing land on top of the Blue Ridge Mounta in, at or near the head waters of
Big
Run. Now, that land on top of that mounta in is the best quality soil
that I
know for blue grass, and on the western side for some distanc e the soil is
also good for blue grass, and I estima ted that in this two hundred acres there
is good soil, as you will note if you go back over this ridge; that classes
the
same as on the Bagoon farm, the Eyler farm and the Patters on farm. By explana
tion a few minute s ago, I explain ed how we arrived at the two hundred acres. I
valued that at 10. 00 per acre, which totals $2,000 .00.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q,.
You stated that a hundred acres of it might be the Hinkle land?
A. About a hundred acres outside .
Q,.
Suppos ing that to be the case, what is the hundred acres that is outside ,
regardles s of what belong s to Hinkle , worth?
A. I would cut that valuati on half in two.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q..
That would be five dollars t.~en?
A. Yea, five dollars . That leaves this 11,500 acres that I classed as ridge
land, includi ng severa l watersh eds, at the price of $2.50 per acre.
Q,.
You have placed a value of five dollars an acre on what we now think is a
hundred acres of grazing land that lies withou t the J . W. Hinkle claim. Now,
can
you give a value, that you consid er fair, on that part of the grazing land
now
claimed by Hinkle and also claimed by the claima nts in this suit ; namely ,
approximately one hundred acres? In other words, can you now fix a separa te value
for that part of the J. w. Hinkle land which lies withou t the ~r1g1n al Moton
Shiffl et tract?
A. I cut a hundred acres that lies withou t to five dollars an aore, and, as a
matter of fact, you wOUld have to increas e the value of the lend that is
in the
Hinkle bounda ry suffici ent to make it aggreg ate two thousan d dollars . That's
just what I wruld do.
Q..
In other words, fifteen dollars an acre?
A
- 153-
A. Yea, fifteen dollars an acre.
�Then, the figure that you wculd place per acre would be fifteen dollars ?
A. Yes.
Q.
Are you familia r with the rock that is on this proper ty, and whethe r or not
there is rock of a comme rcial quality and quanti ty there?
A. There is a very valuab le rock there for variou s p11rposes, and it is found
in great quanti ties.
Q.
Is the rock located at points that are accessa ble to the public roads and
the
railroa d?
A. It is only a few miles away from the railroa d, and those granite slides
are
right near the presen t public roads in this area. It could be made valuab
le
for road buildin g, road repairi ng and tor railroa d uses as ballas t.
On which classif ication of land is the rock to which you refer located ?
A. You will find it in allot these watersh eds. The greate st quanti ty is
found
near the gorge ot Big Run where it flows out ot the mounta in. You will find
great quanti ties of it, though , in all these watersh eds.
Q.
What is the total valuati on of these differe nt classif ication s ot land, as
you
have arrived at them?
A. $92,75 0.00.
Q.
The prices fixed by you for the variou s classif ication s is what? ·
A. t92, 750.00 .
Q,.
You have heard the testimo ny of Mr. Turner and Mr. Doffmi er in regard to
their
cruisin g this land · for timber?
A. I did.
Q.
Will you tell the Commission to whom they made their reports on the cruisin
g
of that timber, and whethe r you made known to one or the other what results
each had arrived at?
A. Mr. Turner and Mr. Doff'mier made their 11port s to me, Mr. Tavene r, along
with other associ ates, 1u-. Walker , Mr. White and Mr. William s . They asked
me
to select some good timber cruise rs to cruise this timber . I sent Mr. Turner
in those runs, and I outline d a method by which it was to be done. He made
his report to me. I then got Mr. Dof:finier to follow in severa l runs that
Mr.
Turner had gone over, and he made his estima tes to me. Neithe r one knew
what
the other fellow had estimat ed until the day the report was ma.de up, and
after
I had it all typed from their noteboo ks, what they had done, I reporte d to
what they had done in compar ison with each other. They had no connec tion them
with
each other during the time the cruisin g was being done.
Q.
Mr. Doff'mi er said he had not seen Mr. Turner at all until after the reports
were
prepare d'?
A. No, he didn't see him. I didn't think it was right for them to
know. I wanted an indepen dent opinion from those men.
Q,.
What is Mr. Turner 's reputa tion as a lumbennan'?
A. It he hadn't been a good one, I wculdn 't have selecte d him.
Q.
What is his reputa tion,ge nerally ,as being a good timber man?
A. He is conside red one of the best qualiti ed men in the county as a cruise
r of
timber. He has been, in his day, a succes sful sawmil l man. He has owned a
good
deal of it himsel f
•
-154S3
�Q,.
I notice that the state has compiled, through Mr. Marsh, an itemized statene nt
of the various estimatei placed upon timber and land values and classifications
in a very compact form, so that it is vecy easy to get at their testimony and
to see what they claim and contend. You have performed practically the same
function for the claimants here that Mr. Marsh has for the state, _ and I am going to ask you if you will file a composite statement tomorrow morning in just
the same manner and form as that filed by the state. Will you do that? That
is, make a summary of the result of all the work done in this area?
A. Yes.
Q,.
You may not be able to finish it by tomorrow morning, but so that it may be
filed with the Commissioners?
A. I don't know that I have the necessacy data by which I can do that. I made
several typewritten copi~s of the report -- If you will put those in my possession, I will do it and have it ready in the morning.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. A-™STRONG:
Q.
Mr. Good, there seems to be a great difference as to how grazing land is classified, as to what is grazing land, in the evidence of the petitioner and the
evidence of the claimant. What do you mean by grazing land, as to this two
hundred acres; is that all cleared land, or with bushes browing on it?
A. There are bushes on it.
Q.
It is not absolutely clear?
Q..
How many acres of this two hundred acres is absolutely clear, or is any of it?
A. Well, I stated a while ago that this land lying without the Hinkle enclosure
is possibly a hundred acres.
A. No.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
How about what Hinkle has enclosed; is that in brush?
A. Possibly on the east and west side of the mountain may be in brush, but on
top of the mountain it is in clearing.
BY MR. AH.1STRONG:
Q.
This cleared land that you speak· of, of Mr. Hinkl~s, is that on the south portion?
A. The better land that Mr. Hinkle has enclosed and in use is right on top of
the mountain.
Q.
Do you think that is as good as the Ann.strong land?
A. Yes, that land that has recently been cleared. Some on the northern edge of ·
the mountain top he put into blue grass. Some that had formerly been cultivated -- that might not be so good.
Q.
You would not think it is as good as the Eyler land?
A. On top of the mountain, it is as good as any of it.
~-
Mr. Good, I believe you stated that this land was noted for its recreational
value and had the best trout fishing streams on it,better or as good as any in
this section of the state, did you not?
A. I did say that.
-155-
�Q.
Do you know of any other streams or places in the mountains that are as good
for trout fishing, or of the same recreational value as this property?
A. With my own personal knowledge, I do not, and through my intimate contact
with fishermen through the valley, I have been info:nned that they have no
place as promising as this is.
Q.
What about fishing and recreational value on Love's Run in Augusta County?
A. I have always understood that there is a run flowing out of the Blue Ridge,
I cannot recall the name, but it may be the same that you refer to, said to be
a very fine trout stream, but it is very difficult to get to and fish. I don't
know that that applies to the run you mention.
Q.
How about Stuart's Draft?
A. I only know those streams by what I hear said about them. The stream I mentioned a while ago is said to be fine, but it is very difficult to get to, but
I don't know that it applies to that place or not, but people from Waynesboro
and other places have been coming and camping on this stream, and if they had
such an excellent stream near them, they would go there instead of this one.
Q,.
I will mention three or four others and ask you if you have heard of them;
Schuller Hollow in Albemarle; White Oak Canyon, in Madison County; Naked Creek,
in Page County.
A. I know Naked Creek in Page County.
Q.
Do you think they are as good
A. I have no information about these strearrs except Naked Creek.
compare to any of these four streams that I have mentioned.
Q.
However, you do admit that there are other fishing streams near the Mount Vernon tract, With possibl y as good fishing as on the Mount Vernon tract, and the
same recreational value?
A. No, I don't admit that without having knowledge of the fact that they are.
Q.
Do you know that quite a few people go ou~ on what is known as the main Shenandoah Mountain and camp and fish there?
A. I do not. I do know this, that a great many people all over the country are
looking for recreational grounds of that type; they go everywhere. Knowing the
character of these mountains and their convenience to the railroads aui public
roads, it could be made into one of the best recreational grounds that I know
of in · the whole country.
It doesn't
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
Q..
Are you familiar w.ith 1he Patterson land?
A. I am, somewhat. I can't say that I am so much except with what is known as
the Fretrell tract.
What is the value of that land?
A. I have it here in my notebook on what I testified on the Patterson land at
White Hall some months ago.
Q.
You state that you have, in a memorandum book, a notation that you have previously estimated or appmised the value of that land. Will you state, on referring
to your memorandum, what that value is?
A. I have my estimate now on the Patterson land. Thia doesn't represent entirely
my individual judgment about this. I believe, as I stated in White l.fall, I re-156-
�lied on these valuation s, on some of these lands that I could rely upon, as to
what it was doing for them in the way of grazing, and I have an estimate of
three hundred eighty-on e acres in Albemarle County, at seventy dollar per acre.
I have an estimate of four hundred fifteen acres in Rockingham County, at sixty
dollars an acre, and an estimate on a six hundred acre tract in Albemarle County
at fifty dollars an acre.
Q.
Are these lands in close proximity to the Mount Vernon boundarie s?
A. Yes, they lie to the southeast , not far away.
Q,.
Are the lands to which you have just referred cleared and in grazing?
A. Not entirely. There is some brush and some timber, but not a great deal of
timber.
Is the character of the soil there similar to the soil on the productiv e part
of the Mount Vernon tract?
A. There is not much differenc e between any of these lands and the land, a :iart
of which Hinkle has enclosed. The quality of the ' land on the back bone of that
mountain is very similar to this good land. It is all very much alike. I don't
say that a great quantity of land on this place is that way, but on the back
bone of that mountain it is very valuable for blue grass purposes.
•
Mr. Turner testified that he saw and estimated three hundred acres of land there
of that general type. Could he have seen land that you are not testifyin g to?
A. Mr. Turner may have dropped further down on the east and west side of the
mountain than I did, and included more brush land.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
Did your estimate ·include any brush?
A. Oh, yes.
Q.
But you did not go down as far?
A. No.
BY MR . TAVENER:
Q.
So the differenc e in your estimate and Mr. Turner's estimate is due to the fact
that he went down further?
A. I will say that Mr. Turner is more competent to be a judge that I am. He has
been in that business all of his lite.
Q,.
When they began their campaign for funds for the national park, the people were
called upon to contribut e, not so much in dollars, but in tenns of acres,is that
not true?
A. It is true.
Q.
People were asked to subscribe on the basis of buying so many acres of this land,
were they not?
A. They were.
Q.
What was the value that was placed on an acre in raising mon•y?
A. I had sane very active connectio n with that; I was named in the Stonewall
District to solicit the people of that district for this purpose, end I believe
they placed it at six dollars an acre.
Q.
A person contribut ed according to the number of acres he felt he could subscribe
for at six dollars an acre?
A. Yes.
-157-
�BY MR. A™STRCNG:
Q.
Mr. Good, you do not mean to say that any acre in the park area, and any particular acreage would be six dollars an acre?
A. That was the average price; that acre was not located.
~-
You do not mean to say that every acre in the Shenandoah National Park would be
worth six dollars?
A. No.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q.
•
You have placed a valuation of $8.50 on the land at the toe of the mountain,
comprising, by estimate, two thousand acres. You will recall that the Augusta
County line divides that tract?
A. It does.
And I want to be certain whether, in your testimony, you were including the
land that lies within Augusta County in ihat estimate of $8. 50.
A. I included all the land that lies in Augusta.as well as in Rockinghem.
• There is one question there that needs clearing up. As I understand it, there
are nine hundred and same acres in Augusta County, a part of which lies at the
toe of the mountain, but a part of which may extend up Payne's Run or Swamp
Run--
A. It lies in the head waters of Payne's Run.
Q,•
Would you make any division, in your own mind, as to the value of that lend in
.Augusta County, and if you have not thought over that matter, I will ask you to
take out the map and take your time toward making an estimate of the amount in
Augusta, upon which you would place a valuation of $8. 50 .
A. I only considered the land at the toe of the mountain in Augusta County in
that valuation of $8.50.
Q,.
Can you fix, approximate ly, the acreage at the toe of the mountain in Augusta
County?
A. I figure two hundred acres wrul.d be a fair approximati on.
Q.
According to this statement it appears that it is foutr hundred and nine acres in
Augusta County that is at the toe of the mountain.
A. My estimate is approximate , and Mr. Turner has reached his conclusion by
some measured calculation .
Then, your estin,ate of the low land in .Augusta County is $8.50 on four hundred
and nine acres?
A. I would put the same valuation on that lend as that lying between the Black
Rock road and the Grottoes road.
Q,.
According to the government statement, there are three hundred ninety-thre e acres
or land that is on the upper tract, meaning back of Roadcap's land or orchard;
now, have you included that in your estimate of 11,500 acres, designated as ridge
land?
·
A. That part of this two thou.sand acres extending, in Rockingham County, from the
Black Rock road to the Grottoes furnace road, there is part of this tract between the Grottoes furnace road and the Port Republic furnace road included.
- 158-
�Q. But that is the lower tract of tour hundred and nine acres, which you have just
testified to. Now, there appears to be an additional tract of three hundred
ninety-three acres extending back of Roadcap's orchard up toward the top of the
mountain, toward the head of Payne's Run. Now, I want you to place tl'flt tract
in its proper classification so that the Commission from Augusta County will
know that all that land lying west of the Blue Ridge, whether in Augusta or
Rockingham County, all belongs to the same classification, and you rated it as
$8. 50 per acre.
A. It is all similar; there is very little difference in the nature of the land
or what is on it; that is the ridge land.
And further this deponent saith not.
'
MR. GORDON BO\l.!AN, a witness of lawful age, being duly sworn, deposes and says as
follows:
•
What is your name, Mr. Bowman?
A. Gordon Bo\'lllail.
Q..
Your age?
A. Twenty-five.
Q.
Place of residence?
A. Mount Jackson.
~-
What is your occupation, Mr. Bowman?
A. Fruit growing.
Q..
Mr. Bowman, where did you receive your technical training in horticulture?
A. V. P. I.
Q.
Did you take the regular horticulture course?
A. Yes.
Q.
Are you the owner of an orchard yourself?
Q..
Where is your orchard located?
A. Two miles east of Edinburg.
Q.
That is right•on the western elope of the Massanutten Mountain, is it not?
A. Yes.
Q.
Now, I have asked you to go up and look over what we term here a two thousand
acre tract of land at the toe of the mountain. Will you tell the Commission
whether that tract lies similar to your lemon tract?
A. :Practically the same thing; the slope of the foothill of the mountain.
A. ·yes.
By Counsel:- The purpose of introducing this witness is to show whether or not this
land is well adapted to fruit growing purposes.
-159-
�Q.
Describe to the Commission the necessity for land with proper air drainage,
in order to have a profitabl e orchard property.
A. Well, in this particula r case, this land has the proper elevation , and it
doesn't have any frost pockets, where frost could get in and hang. It lays
up where the air can drain off from it and not have any frost pockets.
q. Is that not one of the most essential requireme nts for an orchard?
A. Yes air, most essential .
Q.
Having an orchard properly situated with reference to air drainage, you reduce to a minimum killing by frost?
A. Yes.
Q.
You have en instrumen t there that is termed an altemeter . Will you describe
to the Commission just how· you used it in locating the elevation of this
tract for the purpose of ascertain ing whether it had proper air drainage?
A. When we crossed the bridge, before entering Grottoes, I took the instrument and went down to the water level under the bridge and set my instrumen t
at zero. Then we went due east until we came to Mr. Mace's property, and
there I checked the instrumen t, and we found an elevation of two hundred and
twenty feet. Then, from Mr. Mace's we walked about a mile in a southerly
direction , and there is a possibili ty that it may have been a little southeast ,
but I think it was south, and in that mile the topograph y had changed from two
hundred ·and twenty feet to five hundred and seventy f'eet,wher e I checked the
instrumen t again. Then we walked three hundred yards further and the instrument had risen to six hundred and sixty feet, and from there, approxim ately
another hundred :tmm yards, we came on to a run, which Mr. Mace called Miller's
Run. There the elevation was seven hundred and ten feet above the level under
the bridge.
Q.
You had that elevation then, from the river up to the point where you took
those measursne nts?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
From your study and experienc e, is that a well balanced air drainage for a productive orchard?
A. Yes, it is ~ar above the average.
Q.
Would you state, then, whether or not this tract is just about the average for
an orchard property, as far as air drainage is concerned , or whether it is an
unusually good location?
A. From a standpoin t or air drainage and elevation , I think it is a little above
the average; certainly above the average or an orchard in the flat lands and
the valleys, because the chances of getting a frost there, you wouldn't probably have a frost damage once in ten years.
~.
Did you examine the soil there?
Q.
Tell the Commission what your opinion is of the soil condition .
A. The soil in this tract of land compares very favorably with the soil in my
orchard in Edinburg, Virginia; also with an orchard at Mount Jackson, Virginia,
owned by Ripley Walker. They both lie in the foothills right off the Massanutten Mountain, and the soil is kind of a mountain sandy loam, very good for
fruit; as a matter or fact, it is excellent .
A. Yes.
- 160-
�Q.
You noticed there on the border of this property, shafts that had been sunk for
iron ore, and if it h~n't already been shown, it will be shown that there are
considerable quantities of iron ore and manganese running along the base of the
Blue Ridge. What value, if any, has the mineral content of the soil for the
growing of fruit?
A. It has never been definitely proven from the standpoint of chemical analysis,
but it is generally accepted that these mountain soils that are high in iron
content are good for the coloring up of fruit. They color early and they have
a greater percentage of color in the fruit.
Q.
Did you bring any specimens of the fruit that you found on orchards adjoining
this tract?
A. In Mr. Roadcap's orchard I picked up these apples, which I judge to be a fair
sample. They were covered up with corn fodder. These York apples are practically a hundred percent color, and we just can't grow them that way out in the
valley.
Q.
These are York apples, and in this particular apple here the deepness of the
color is almost that of a winesap variety, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q.
Would you say that apples of that description could be grown on soil that was
not well adapted to fruit growing?
A. No sir, it could not.
Q.
What about the sub soil?
A. We looked in a couple of places alonside the bank, and we looked at the old
mine shaft, and we found about an eighteen inch soil, and we found under that
a kind of a clay subsoil; not a stone clay subsoil we find here in the valley,
but a hardy clay subsoil.
Q.
Would you state that from the nature of the soil itself, including the mineral
content, that this land is well adapted for fruit growing?
A. Yes.
Q.
What did you find in regard to water?
A. Well, the highest point that we walked to was about one and a fourth miles
from Mace's house, and it was the highest elevation that I recorded, seven
huhdred and ten feet, where, at that point, water would flow by gravity over
any part of the tract that we walked over, and it seemed to have sufficient
water for spraying purposes to accomodate this orchard, if it were planted
over the entire tract, because there was a nice quantity of water there during
this dry time.
Q.
There is sufficient water there, then, for the operation of an orchard property?
A. I think so.
Q,.
Would it be necessary to pump that water?
A. No air, it would be gravity.
Q.
Is that very important in the matter of the location ct: an orchard, the question of being able to get water at various points by gravity?
A. It is a question of expense. It is absolutely necessary, and if you can get
it there by gravity, without cost, you are just that much better off. Otherwise,
it would be a very expensive proposition. ·
-161-
�Q.
Who was with you on this property?
A. My father and r. William Tissinger.
Q.
Was Mr. John Mace with you too?
A. Yes, and his son too.
Q.
And Mr. Mace was familiar with the lay of the land and the boundaries of the
property?
A. Yes.
Q.
Did you have one of these maps with you?
A. No sir,~ut we plotted out where this run came down and over where the Augusta
County line came in and several things like that.
Q.
Did you, in company with :Mr. Mace and your father and Mr. Tissinger, estimate
the amount of acreage there that could be profitably planted in trees at the toe
of the mountain?
A. Well, l kind of approximated it; took the general slope, this good fruit
belt and walked back there a mile or a mile and a 1JUarter. l judge there is
about a thousand acres there north of Miller's Run, and part of it might have
gone over in there; l em not familiar enough with it to say.
BY
Q.
TEE COMMISSION:
Your estimate was all north of Miller's Run?
A. Well, no, we came from Mace's house up to a point about a mile and a quarter,
and then came in another way from the road. There is another tract goes up in
there. l judge around two thousand acres is what we looked over; it was a
pretty big tract of land.
Q.
What would you say, as a whole, in regard to the adaptability of that land as a
commercial orchard?
A. I believe there is a thousand acres wwld make an excellent orchard.
BY M
TAVENEB:
Q.
You and your father and your brother are the owners of a considerable acreage
of orchard, I believe?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
How many acres are you interested in?
Q.
If you consider that the pine growing on this tract is cut off by someone else,
and you consider that land just as it is, except that the pine has been cut
off, what would you say would be a fair valuation of the land that you state
is adaptable for fruit purposes?
A. Taking into consideration its adaptability for an orchard, under present
conditions, that land, fbr orchard purposes, ought to be worth twenty dollars
an acre, under present conditions .
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q.
BY MR.
A. Five hunared.
ARM3TIDNG:
Mr. Bowman, how long were you up there going over this property?
A. Oh, let's see, about tour or five hours, sanething like that.
-162-
�Q.
And you covered this two thousand acres you went over, all of it, and got the
height and elevation and so forth in four or five hours?
A. Just a general view.
Q.
But you covered about two thousand acres while you were there?
see; took from the river, see, up to
Mace's house, and from there up to the run.
A. I only ran this one general elevation,
Q.
What would you say it would cost to cut off and clean up one thousand acres of
this land which you say would be excellent for an orchardf how much per acre or
for the whole thousand acres to get it in shape to plant an orchard?
A. I am not very familiar with cleaning up mountain land, but I would say twenty dollars an acre would clean it up suitable for an orchard; that is, really
clean it .up. You might be able to do it a little cheaper under the present
wage scale.
Q.
Mr. Bowman, what is the range and the elevation on this thousand acre tract
from the lowest point to the highest point, what would you say?
A. I am not familiar enough with the tract to ay that. I imagine the lowest
point, though, would be somewhere -- I am just guessing at this, see -- but
it would probably be between two hundred and fifty and three hundred feet.
Q.
How did you arrive at the acreage; could it as easily be seven hundred or five
hundred acres?
A. I just approximated 1 t.
Q.
It could be seven hundred acres of good orchard land?
A. Yes, I think it is seven hundred and sane more.
Q.
Is there much difference in
Run section?
A. I am not acquainted with
the point I stopped on that
above the water level under
went.
Q.
the elevation of the Brown's Gap road and the Miller
the --- Is that the old furnace road? -- Let's see,
road, the elevation was two hundred and twenty feet
the river bridge; that is as far up that road as I
What was the elevation on Miller Run?
A. Seven hundred and ten feet; that is, where I took my reading on the run.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
Did you take a reading at the Roadcap orchard?
A. Yes, five hundred fee~ at the top side of the Roadcap orchard.
And further this deponent saith not.
-163-
�MR. CHARLES C. BOWMAN, a witness of lawful age, being duly sworn, deposes and says
as follows:
Q.
State your full name.
A. Charles C. Bowman.
Q,.
What is your age?
A. Fifty- six.
Q.
Your place of residence?
A. Mount Jackson.
Q.
What is your occupation?
A. Fruit growing and farming.
Q.
How long have you been engaged in fruit growing?
A. Oh, I don't know, possibly thirty years.
Q.
In what acreage of orchard are you and your sons interested?
A. Around five hundred.
Q.
Mr. Tissinger here is also called as a w1 tness in this case.
Q.
Mr. Bowman, I have asked you to go upon this property with the idea of mak-
Do you know
whether or not Mr. Tissinger is looked upon as a fruit grower of experience
and ability?
A. Yes.
ing a report here as to what findings you have imde as to the adaptability
of the land lying at the toe of the mountain for fruit growing purposes,and
I am going to take the time to ask you a lot of questions. I will ask you
to tell the Commission, in your own words, how well adapted, if at all,this
tract at the toe of the mountain, which we describe as a two thousand acre
tract, is for fruit growing purposes.
· A. I would consider it a good location for planting an orchard.
Q.
State your reasons to the Commission.
A. First, the condition of the soil; that kind raises good fruit. The air
drainage is good. It is a gradual slope from the mountain down to the river,
and there is plenty of air drainage. If we have pockets in the orchard, the
air will stand there, and it is more likely to freeze the bloom.
Q. How is this tract located with reference to possible air pockets?
A. I couldn't say that I discovered any air pockets. There are a few places
lower than the others, but not to amount to aeything.
~-
Would the slope
cold air in the
A. Yes, it is a
the air to pass
of this orchard be gradual in such a way as to carry off the
proper way?
gradual slope, and there is plenty of room below this land for
away.
Q.
What other reasons, if any, led you to believe that that land is well adapted
for fruit growing?
A. Well there is only two things about it; one is air drainage and the slope,
and the fact that the mines are there. We know from experience that the land
that has that mineral content that that has, raises a good quality of fruit,
with fine fid.sh.
Q.
What about the water being available for usual fruit growing operations?
-164-
�A. I should say it was ideal. A man could put a gravity system in there and
run the water over the land, practically everywhere I could see. There is a
few places you could not get, but you could locate your spray stations for
thato
Q.
It has been testified by people living in that community that in exceedingly
dry seasons they were still able to produce good crops there on the slope
of the mountain, and the reason assigned by them was that the water was closer
to the top soil. Is that a material factor in raising fruit?
A. It is very important, especially in dry seasons such as we have had the
·
last year or two.
Q.
Did you see the Roadcap orchard?
A. Yes.
Q.
I don't know anything about the care that orchard has received in the past,
but, from an examination of those trees, could you tell whether the land was
well adapted for fruit growing?
A. I should say that it was, when we saw the apples laying there, at this time
of year, some on the ground and some covered up by fodder there. I noticed,at
home, that the apples laying on the ground today are practically gone, and I
was able to pick up apples there in good condition.
Q.
That was an indication of what?
A. That the location of that land was suitable for fruit growing, because,when
you pick apples in the fall and are not able to clean up as you go, you don't
have as much waste in your dropped apples.
Q.
It also shows that the air drainage is unusually good, does it not?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Mr. Bowman, what valuation would you put on that tract of land for orchard purposes, assuming that the pine timber is being cut off by other persons?
A. I would put it at about fifteen dollars an acre.
Q.
Mr. Bowman, did you notice an orchard on the east side of the Brown's Gap road,
going up near this thousand acre tract that you have spoken of as a good orchard site?
A. You mean between a little town there and this land?
Q.
Yes • .
A. Yes, I did.
Q.
What were the condition of those trees, as to whether they were thrifty or not?
A. They looked to have had oro.inary care and are in reasonably good condition.
Q.
Doing wel l, and thrifty?
A. Reasonably so for 1he care they have had. If an orchard receives good care,
it will be more thrifty.
Q.
If there was an orchard on this particular thousand acre tract of land, would
it not require more fertelizer or nitrate of soda than your orchard, which is
known as the Edinburg Orchard or the Maphis?
A. The Edinburg is v,ry similar, and the Maphis is heavier. East of the pike, it
is somewhat similar soil to this, but not as near it as the orchard near Edinburg.
-165-
8%
�Q.
You did not answer the question.
nitrate of soda?
A. Yes, it would.
Would it not require more fertilizer or
BY MR . TAVENER :
Q,.
Q,.
Are you familiar with the Ripley Walker orchard?
A. Yes.
Is the soil of that orchard similar to this soil that you have just been over?
A. I would consider it so, yes.
Q.
Has the Lemon Orchard and the Ripley Walker Orchard been known as profitable
orchards?
A. The Lemon Orchard was taken care of very badly until we got it. It has been
raising well since we got it ; in fact, last year it was heavily loaded.
Q,.
Is the color of the apples there better than in your valley orchard?
A. Yes, far superior.
Q.
At this time of strong competition with the western fruit growers isn ' t the
color of the fruit one of the main points in the marketing of apples?
A. Yes.
Q.
Mr. Bowman, do you lmow why there aren't any good commercial orchards in this
particular neighborhood, for the thousand acres of land of wluch you have been
speaking, it being such good orchard land?
A. No, I don't.
And further this deponent saith not ~
MR. W. H. TISSINGER, a witness of law~J.l. age , being duly sworn, deposes and says as
follows:
Q.
Will you state your full name?
A. Mr. W. H. Tis singer.
Q,.
Your age?
A. Forty-eight.
Q.
Your place of residence?
A. Mount Jackson.
Q,.
What is your occupation?
A. Orchar.d business.
Q,.
For how many years have you been engaged in fruit growing?
A. About twenty years .
- 166-
�•
At the present time, I believe, you have been appointed by the Circuit Court of
Shenandoah County as Special Receiver for the large orchard known as Belle Gravis, at Mount Jackson?
A. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q.
,1anaging that orchard under court supervision?
~-
Will you give this Commission the benefit of your judgment on this tract of land
at the toe of the mountain as to its adaptability for fruit growing?
A. I think the lower half of the property is what we went over; we went around,
and then cut across and landed down at the road below Mr. Mace's house, came
through those pines there, and the lower half is an ideal location for an orchard.
The air drainage is very good, and the water is above it, which l'«>uld make a
gravity system, which is very important; I know that very well, because I was
out of water last year and I know what it means. The upper half would be expensive, getting out the logs and all, but the lower half would be profitable.
Q.
Where is your orchard located?
A. On the ridge, back of Mount Jackson.
Q.
You cleared off a good part of that orchard yourself, I think?
A. About a hundred and thirty acres; in worse shape than this to clean off.
Q.
You. have had quite a bit of experience in cleaning up new ground for orchard purposes?
A. Yes sir, ever since I have been raising apples.
Q.
In view of the entire situation there, you state that this is an ideal location,
at least the lower part, for orchard business?
A. Yes.
Q.
You have stated as reasons, on account of air drainage and on account of the
water. What can you say as to the soil?
A. About eighteen inches down you strike a sand and clay mixture. When you get
in toward the mine section, there is more of a sandy sub-soil mixed up with sane
white sand of sane kinll, and there around on the Augusta side, we struck right
smart red clay there twelve or fourteen inches down. Right on this side of Roadcap's, you strike into a red sub-soil there.
Q.
Is that soil similar in nature to any other soil upon which you know a profitable orchard is being operated?
A. It is the same as the west side of our orchard there. Dr. Foley has an orchard there that is profitable.
Q,.
How about the orchard at New Market?
A. That is a little ~etter soil than this other.
Q.
Do you consider those Jork apples there as being well developed, well colored
fruit?
A. Yes sir.
Q,.
Is it possible to raise fruit of that color in a season such as we have had this
year in our valley orchards?
A. Not on the low orchards; higher orchards will do it, but not on the lower orchards.
-167-
�• This land is in close proximity to the railroad, is it not?
A. Two miles and a hal:t' to three and a hal:t'.
~.
Down grade haul?
A. Yes, all the way down hill.
~.
What would you say, Mr. Tissinger, as to the value of that land for orchard
purposes, not taking into account the timber; in other words, i:t' someone else
would remove the yellow pine timber that is there, what would you consider the
•
value of that land as orchard land?
A. Well , there is a good many ways o:t' arriving at that. If they put an orchard
there, the price of the land would double immediately ; that has been our exe oought our land in 1912 and
perience on the ridge back of Mount Jackson.
an acre, and you can't buy it
dollars
ten
and
eight
at
low,
was
1914 when land
don't want to sell it now.
they
words,
other
In
acre.
an
today at fifty dollars
orchard end of it :t'rom
the
consider
would
I
there,
around
orchard
Without any
but it is gentle. A
slope,
little
a
has
It
acre.
an
twelve to twenty dollars
to the water without
back
get
and
sprayer
a
with
easily
it
man could get over
any trouble.
~.
What would you place as a value upon the upper part, lilich you say is not gµite
as good as the lower for orchard purposes?
A. From eight to ten dollars an acre. We didn't go clean up against the clif'f';
we went along the bottom of the cli:t':t'; we went along the toe of the mountain.
Q.
Mr. Tissinger, you say you have had experience in cleaning up orchards ever
since you have been in the orchard business. Will you give the Commission an
idea o:t' what it would cost an acre to clean up this land, assuming that the
pine trees are cut off and removed by other parties?
A. We have had various expenses. Of course, it depends mostly upon the price
of labor. I believe fifteen to eighteen dollars an acre would clean it up.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. AmBTIDNG:
Q.
Mr. Tissinger, how many acres would you put in the classificat ion "lower half
o:t' the property"?
A. We would have to take another party's word for the amount there, and we
thought we were going over half of it.
Q.
How many acres would be in the lower part?
A. Eight or ten hundred acres on the one side. There is more on the north side
of the run than on the other side. I would think eight hundred or a thousand
acres.
Q.
You consider it would cost fifteen to eighteen dollars an acre to clean up the
lower half. How much to clean up the upper portion?
A. There would be more rocks up there; that wculd make it more expensive. That
would put it up about fi tty percent. We just looked at the lower half :tlom an
orchard standpoint.
Q.
You don't think it would be practical. to put in an orchard in the upper half?
A. Not as long as there is as much available below that point.
-168VIS
�Q.
So, as a matter or fact, you don't think there woul·d be more than eight hundred acres of land that could be put into an orchard,in order to make a profit?
A. When it comes to the number of acres , I am just taking another party's
word there for the amount or it . We thought we were going over half of it . We
got above those mine sinkings there. A man wouldn ' t have his water up in there.
BY MR. TAVENE:R:
~-
Did you see any peach trees in the section where you were?
A. At George Roadcap's .
Q.
A peach is more susceptible to injury from frost and freezes than the apple, is
1 t not?
A. Yes sir.
~-
Did you inquire about the damage to those peach trees from frost and freezes
from Mr. Roadcap?
A. I asked him the age of those trees, and he said about twenty years. I asked
him how many crops he had missed, and he said he had never missed a crop of
peaches, although some years·the crop was shorter than others . That is natural,
of course.
And further this deponent saith not.
MR. CHARLES BOWMAN recalled, and deposes as follows:
Direct examination by Mr. Tavener:
Q.
This land appears to produce unusuall y fine York apples, in quality, as well as
in size. Will you state to the Commission whether or not the York apple is
really the moneyed apple in this section of Virginia?
A. It is the most profitable commercial variety that I knew of,in my experience.
MR. A. M. TURNER, recalled, and deposes as follows:
Examination by Mr. Tavener:
Q.
You have already been sworn. I have asked you to go back on the section of
land that lies in Augusta County, at the toe of the mountain, and to cruise
that timber. I don't know what your results are, but I will ask you to tell
the Commission what you have done and your results?
A. I went back there this morning, and took a map along, furnished by the
gentleman there . The southeast portion of it runs up into the mountain, up a
long hollow, I expect two and a half miles long. I went up that hollow to the
Rockingham line and back to the lower end or the tract, and I estimatai the timber, in board feet, that I seen there, and we wa.tld have to cut it into three
saw mill seats, and it would make about a hundred and seventy-five thousand
- 169-
�t'eet of lumber, of a better grade of lumber then that on the northern part of
the survey that I was on. It is the mountain red oak in that hollow, a more
valuable timber; sane virgin timber there, right smart white pine and mountain
pine. Down further it is the second growth timber, probably been growing fifty years; white oak end mixed oak in the hollows and on the side, some pine;
perhaps forty percent pine arid the rest white and mixed oak •
•
Then, your original estimates of the timber are to be increased to the amount
of ene hundred and seventy-five thousand feet?
A. At that point, so far.
A. Yes, up the hollow.
Tbis is the upper tract?
Q,.
Q,.
Alright now, proceed.
A. Then there is another tract north of this and a little to the left of the
road as you go down, up on a flat, and a portion of it lays perhaps four to six
feet lower than the other half, and that is covered with a growth of principally
white oak and mi:x:ed oak of a young growth, ranging from ten inches, twelve inches
from the ground up to twenty inches, twelve inches from the ground, a young
growth of timber, a small amount of pine only. I estimated that at something
over seventy-five thousand feet.
~-
Then, you are increasing your original estimates, after going over this territory that you had not been over, better than two hundred and fifty thousand feet?
A. Yes.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
What about the pine on that lower tract?
A. A very small amount, not over ten percent.
And further this deponent saith not.
(By Mr. Tavener:- You will recall that I said I would have a witness here to
show where the ore crops out on the land. For that purpose, I introduce Mr.
John Shifflet.)
MR. JOHN SHIFFLEI', a witness of lawful age, being duly sworn, deposes and says as
follows:
A. John Shifflet.
Q,.
What is your name, Mr. Shifflet?
Q,.
Your age?
.A. Si:x:ty-four; will be in February.
Where do you live?
A. I live at Lynnwood.
•
Q,.
What opportunity have you had to be familiar with the minerals on the Mount
Vernon Tract?
A. I have been working in mines all my life until I got too old.
~.
I want you to give a description to the Commission of what mines were worked,and
where they were worked on the Mount Vernon tract.
A. I done a lot of prospecting there at the Weaver Mine; it is right at the south
of Lewis Lower Run.
-1?0-
�Q.
That is the
eaver Mine?
A. Yea.
I am going to make a circle, in ink, on this map, indicating the Weaver Mine.
Now, when did you work in that mine?
A. It has been seventeen or eighteen years ago, I reckon, when Rumberger and
Company took an option on it.
Q.
Is the ore visible at that place now?
A. No sir, we dropped a tunnel in there and it fell in; the timber has given
'way and the tunnel tell in. It could be opened up in a little bit.
Q.
Where else did you make prospects and find ore?
A. At the Hangman's Run.
Q.
What sort of ore was being mined at the Weaver Mine?
A. Brown Hametite Iron.
Q.
What type of minerals were mined at the Hangman's Run mine?
A. le mined magniferous ores there. I don't think it was over four feet in the
ground. There was a ridge of it sticking up there, and I reckon we knocked off
a small car of it from the ledge.
Q.
At what other places there did you to any prospecting or mining?
A. On over there at the manganese mine on the east side of Big Run •
•
Called the Upper Sipe Iron Ore Mine?
A. Yes, on further than that yet.
•
Of course, you mined manganese at that ple.ce?
Q.
A. Yes.
Now, what about the Upper Sipe Iron Ore Mine?
A. There is plenty of ore there; it is sticking out of the top of the ground.
Now, Lower Sipe Iron Ore Mine , are you familiar with that?
A. I never done any work at that mine, but it looks like it is pretty good
ore there.
•
Q.
You can see the ore by going there and looking?
A. Yes sir •
Now, I see here the Reins Iron Ore Mine.
A. That lies on that thousand acre tract, the Finks tract •
• That is not on this tract?
A. No.
Q.
What about the Doubt Iron Ore Mine?
A. That is an old mine lays there on top of Mine Hill.
Q.
Is that within the pre~ent boundaries of the Mount Vernon tract?
A. Yes sir, I think the line runs pretty close to that; I don't know exactly
where the line runs.
Q.
Is the iron ore visible there now?
-171-
A. Yes sir.
�Q.
Q.
What about the Miller Iron Ore Mine?
A. That is up on the upper end there.
there is right much ore there.
I don't know much about that; they say
Is that visible to the eye?
A. I don't just know.
Q. Miller No. 2 Iron Ore Mine, are you familiar with that?
Q.
Q.
A. No sir.
Now, do you know of any minerals that are visible to the eye there on the
ground at any other places other than those places that you have testified
that you worked?
A. Oh, yes, there is a mine there between - - - Oh, no, that is on another tract.
Are there any outcroppings of minerals between these mines?
A. Oh, yes, you can see the outcroppings and lumps of ore laying all between
there.
Q.
If you would go along practically the same level of the mountain there all
along the western side, do you not find outcroppings of minerals?
A. Oh, yes, yes, I could get on that line of ore and I could hit it almost
any place.
Q.
If the Conmrl.ssion would like ~or you to go with them and point out that ore,
would you be willing to do it?
A. Yes sir, if you would let me know before you came and give me a little time,
because I have a right smart work to do; I've got to work sane too. I mined
two carloads of manganese there at that mine and shipped it away. That is the
manganese mine there below Big fun. I done it for a fellow by the name of
Block. There was a right smart amount of ore got out, and he thought he would
make something on it, and he went on and hauled it out; but there is ore there
in the manganese mine.
Q.
Did you run a tunnel or did you sink a shaft?
A. No sir, right on top of the ground there is a ridge there, and then on down
below, we sunk a shaft there about twenty or thirty feet. The water gets so
bad there, that you couldn't do anything with it, for one thing.
Q.
Can you find ledges of that manganese at different places?
A. Oh, yes, there is plenty of it there; you can see plenty of it.
Q.
Are there any other places there that you know of where manganese outcrops,
except right there at that, or in the vicinity of that manganese mine?
A. No sir, not that I know of.
Q,.
What about the iron ore?
.
A. At the Weaver Mine, I got out two carloads of ore there and shipped it,
and at the Hangman's Run Mine, the ore still lays there and the ledge still
lays there.
Q.
You say that condition of iron ore exists all along the s~e level?
A. Yes sir, northeast to southwest, you know; of course, it varies up and
down a little, you know, but it is practicaily on a line •
•
Is the manganese on the same general line as the iron?
A. Yes sir, wherever you find manganese, you will find iron right above it.
-172852.
�Q..
Manganese is taro diox ide, which is a com bina
tion of iron oxygen and wate r?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Are you fam iliar with that larg e trac t of Mou
ot the mou ntain , whic h we have desc ribe d here nt Vernon land lyin g at the toe
lyin g sout hwe st of Madison or Brow n's Gap road as a two thou sand acre trac t,
?
A. Yes sir, I know it.
Q.
k I was up ther e and met you in the
A. Yes sir; I have been over it many time s.road , and we look ed at that prop erty ?
Q.
What 190uld you cons ider to be a fair valu e
ot that land that lies at the toe
ot the mou ntain ?
A. Well , sir, it I had it, I wou ldn't talce
fifte en doll ars an acre tor it.
I thin
BY MR. A!Mgr'RONG:
Q..
lir. Shi ffle t, how long has it been sinc e ther
e has been any pros pect ing or
sink ing ot shaf ts on this prop erty ?
A. I done the last work ther e duri ng the war,
here at the manganese mine for
an old fello w by the name of Bloc k.
Q,.
How long has it been sinc e the last iron ore
A. That must be fift y year s, I gues s. I knowwas used on this prop erty ?
it has been a long time .
Was ther e ever any manganese ship ped from ther
e?
A. I ship ped two carl oads from ther e; I ship
ped it for an old fello w by the
name of Bloc k.
Q,.
And furt her this depo nent sait h not.
MR. P. B. T. GOOD, reca lled f ~d depo ses as follo
ws:
Exam inati on by Mr. Tav ener :-
Q.
I omi tted to ask you, in your exam inati on in
chie f, as to what this land is
asse ssed at, the Mount Vernon land
, in Rockingham Coun ty, per acre ?
A. My reco llec tion is that 1 t is asse ssed
at seve nty- five an acre , seve ntyfive cent s.
Q.
What is the adjo inin g trac t, known as the .Hil
l Trac t, asse ssed at?
A. Fift y cent s an acre .
Q.
Is
on
is
A.
it not corr ect that a lot of that mou ntain
land , othe r than the Mount Vern trac t, is asse ssed at fi:t't y cent s an acre ,
wher eas the Mount Vernon tr~c t
twen ty-fi ve cent s high er?
It is.
-173...
953
�•
Q.
That is an indica tion that the assesso r looked upon the Mount Vernon tract
as
being more valuab le than the other tracts in that area?
A. That is a natura l conclu sion.
You have handed me, here, a diagram in regard to a questio n as to the Hinkle
land -A. I didn't comple te that diagram . I started to make it to show the form of
this tract of land. I find in Deed Book 97, page 46, a teed from
Shiffl et and others to J. w. Hinkle was recorde d, with the descripBernard
by metes
and bounds in that deed, calling for a hundred and forty-o ne acres,tion
and I also
notice on the assessm ent book that Mr. Hinkle was only assesse d with a hundred
and forty-o ne acres in the Blue Ridge MoWl.tains.
BY MR. A™Sl1IDNG:
Q,.
•
In regard to the assessm ent of this land, Mr. Good, do you know of any other
land assesse d lower than sevent y-five cents an acre?
A. I do not recall any. Do you mean in the Blue Ridge or outside
of the Blue.
Ridge?
No, in this county?
A. I think some land in the Massan utten area is assesse d lower than that . The
Crapha gen, Roller and the Folley lands, I think, are assesse d lower than
that.
The Folley land now belong s to the Chesap eake and Western Railwa y.
And furthe r this depone nt saith not.
BY MR. TAVENER
The Kanawha Nation al Bank, of Charles town, West Virgin
is the holder
of a bond of John A. Alexan der, bearing date the 22nd day of August ,ia,1914,
payable
to .l. D. Johnson , Trustee , November 22nd, 1914, in the sum of fifteen thousan
d dollars. This bond was assigne d to the Kanawha Nation al Bank as collate ral securi
ty for
three classif ication s of debts. These debts were for money advance d by the
Kanawh
a
Nation al Bank for the purcha se and develop ment of the Mount Vernon tract
of real estate.
The first classif ication of debt was a loan made by the Kanawha Nation -
al. Bank to A. D. Johnson for ten thousan d dollars , for the cash
purcha se money for
the Mount Vernon tract of land. This debt -was evidenc ed by the note of A.D.Joh
nson,
in the sum of ten thousan d dollars , and endorse d by E. N. Jackson .
It was alleged by the Kanawha Nation al Bank, in the litigat ion,
this note was paid off by the endors er, E. N. Jackson , and that E. N. Jacksonthat
was
entitle d to recove r out or the Fifteen Thousand Dollar Alexan der bond such
amount
as he could prove that he paid as endors er for Johnson o
- 174g
�E. N. Jackson committed suicide two days before the time set for the
taking of hie deposition, and, by reason of that fact, the only proof that he paid
any part of the ten thousand dollar bond or note that could be presented as legal
evidence, was a check for $2,308.45, which represented a judgment that the Kanawha
National Bank obtained against Jackscn. In other words, on this first classification
of debt, the estate of E. N. Jackson was entitled to be reimbursed out of the proceeds of the fifteen thousand dollar bond of Alexander to the extent of $2,308.45,
with interest from 1917. ·
The second classification of debt, for which the fifteen thousand dollar bond was assigned.as collateral security was composed of two loans made by the
Kanawha :tiational Bank to s. M. Austin, John B. Harris and A. c. Scherr, in the sum
of $750.00 and ~4,460.00 respectively, which sums were used by the last mentioned
individuals in the purchase of the Mount Vernon tract from Jacob Yost; A. E. Johnson being trustee for himself and the said Harris, iaherr and Austin. These notes
were reduced to judgment by the Kanawha National Bank against Harris, Scherr and
Austin, but no part of the same ·has been paid • .A:ny portion collected on the original fifteen thousand dollar bond of J. A. Alexander will, under the proceeding in
the case of Kanawha National Bank against Alexander, be applied in the litigation
and payment of that judgment against Harris, Scherr and Austin.
The third classification of debt is the individual indebtedness of
A. c. Scherr to the amount of $8,542. 81 . That sum representing loans made by the
Kanawha National Bank to A. C. Scherr for investment in the development of the
Mount Vernon tract of real estate, and several small notes, aggregating not more
than 700.00, for life insurance premiums, which had nothing to do with the Mount
Vernon tract of land. A. c. Scherr died, insane, and the proceeds of his life insurance policy was credited to his account, which reduced the principal of his
account, for which the Alexander bond was pledged as collateral, to 3,904.12.
The three classifications, therefore, of debts for which
Alexander bond, of fifteen thousand dollars, is pledged as collateral
interest to March 15, 1928, as reported by Master Commissioner, Laird
the said suit of Kanawha National Bank against John A. Alexander, are
the said
security,with
L. Conrad, in
as follows:
The Johnson - Jackson debt • ••• • ••• •• • ••• •• • ••• • ••• •••• • •••• • • • •••••• $ 3,572.46
The Harris, Scherr and Austin joint indebtedness •• •• • •• • •• • ••••• •• • • 9,078.42
The A. C. Scherr individual indebtedness ••••••• •• •••••••• • •• • ••••• • • 7,619.63
Total •••••••••• • • $20,270.el
In the same report of said Master Commissioner, all other lien debts
against the said Mount Vernon tract are audited, showing a total, principal and interest, as or March 15, 1928, of 84,348.62.
The liens reported by the said Master Commissioner which are prior in
point of payment to those of the present claimants, and by the present claimants I
mean the Kanawha National Bank, as pleagee of the fifteen thousand dollar bond, the
estate of E. w. Feustenberger, the late E. w. Feustenberger being of Charlottsville,
Virginia, the State and City Bank of Richmond, Virginia, and Wallace c. Saunders,of
Richmond, Virginia, amounts to between twenty-five and thirty thousand dollars, including the costs of litigation in said suit in the 6ircuit Court of Rockingham
County and before the Supreme Court of Appeals of the State of Virginia.
- 175s
�I
The debts represent ed by the claimants , other than the Kanawha National Bank, represent investmen ts in 'the various deferred purchase money bonds in the
sale from A. D. Johnson, Trustee, to J. A. Alexander .
An agreement has been reached between the various claimants by which,
to all practical purposes, they share pro rata as to a portion of thir claims, and
with priority to a portion of their claim. In order for any one claim to be paid
in full, it would be necessary for the property to bring $84,000.0 0, with interest
from March 15, 1928.
• •• 000 •••
•
MR. STONEBURNER, State 's witness, called by the state in rebuttal, deposes as follows:
Q.
Mr. Stoneburn er, it has been testified here in this case by Mr. A. M. Turner
that, on a part of this tract of about eight hundred and fifty acres, I believe,
there is a stand of genuine yellow pine. I will now ask you if you have noted
this particula r eight hundred and fifty acres and the kind of pine that is growing on this tract, and what, in your opinion, is the type of pine there.
A. I paid particula r attention to it the two days I was through the flat land
up there, end I find there is just a very,very few scattered genuine yellow
pine trees, not more than one percent. The other ninety-ni ne percent of the
stand is what is called pitch pine. It has various local names, but the character of the wood is nearly all sap. It has very small heart until it reaches
maturity, and then the heart is sometimes not more than four inches in diameter.
Q.
What differenc e is there in the value of what you class as pitch pine and
genuine yellow pine for lumber purposes or any other?
A. The differenc e in value varies according to the location of the timber;
sometimes as much as a differenc e of a dollar and a half per thousand feet in
favor of the genuine yellow pine.
BY THE COMMISSION:
Q.
Those samples that you produced here; did any of those come from that tract
that you speak of?
A. No, but they are the same species.
BY MR. AHASTRONG:
Q.
Mr. Stoneburn er, will you state to the Commission just what this pitch pine
is, what the characte ristics of it are, as to what it will do after being made
into staves as to bulging and twisting and so on.
A. Some of it will twist and warp rather badly; some of it will make very good
staves, if properly stacked. It is not as good as yellow pine.
-176-
�Q,.
Mr. Stoneb urner, in going out and looking for stave timber, would anyone
consider buying this pitch pine to be used in the naking of staves, where they
had
to sell it on a market which require d good stave timber; I will say on a
market
which demands first class stave timber?
A. It might be possib le to find an operato r who would buy that class of pine,
depend ing on the supply of other species of stave lumber in that particu
lar
region . I'd have to say that they are not as desirab le, staves cut entirel
y
from a stand of pitch pine. They are not as desirab le as chestn ut, poplar
or
even scrub pine or the genuine yellow .
cross
EXAMINATION BY MR. TAVENER:
You state that staves cut from a pitch pine are not as desirab le as staves
from a genuine yellow pine. As a matter of fact, Mr. Stoneb urner, did you cut
hear or know of anyone cutting up genuine yellow pine for stave purpos es. ever
Isn't
that classif ied as a higher type of timber and used for timber purpos es and
not
for staves?
A. That is true in the vall:f{ where genuine yellow pine is scarce, but in the
Piedmo nt region, where the genuin e yellow pine is vecy common in immatu re
stands,
I have known it to be out for staves .
Q.
Is this pitch pine a long leaf pine?
A. It has a longer leaf or needle than the Virgin ia scrub.
BY THE CCMMISSI ON:
Q.
Mr. Stoneb urner, which would pay the best, as to size, cutting into lumber or
staves eight or ten inch timber?
A. Where there is very few trees larger than ten inches , or, I will say, where
the average diamet er of ~he timber is from eight to ten inches, under normal
market conditi ons, I would consid er it more profita ble to cut it into staves,
depend ing upon the demand for staves and the dsnand for lumber . There might
be a section where framing materi al wculd be much more in demand than apple
barrel s. In that ,event, it would be more profita ble for the operat or to
cut
it into framing materi al.
BY MR. TAVENER:
Q,.
This section of the valley of Virgin ia is known as the fruit section ?
A. Yes.
Q.
Is it not a fact that the stave people have cut out a great deal of the access
able stave wood materi al in northe rn Virgiiia ?
A. In the valley west of the Blue Ridge stave timber is getting scarce. It
now necessa ry to come almost back into West Virgin ia to get profita ble staveis
wood materi al, and I underst and some western staves are being shipped in.
Q.
Then there is a demand for proper stave wood materi al?
A. I can't say that it is more active than the demand for lumber for buildin
g
purpos es, becaus e they are shippin g more apples each year in basket s end
smalle r
contain ers.
Q.
Mr. Stoneb urner, do you not know the standar d contain er for fruit in this
section is the barrel , and the basket fruit shipped out is almost infinti sroally
small?
A. I must say that my observ ation has been that there is an increas e in the
demand for basket s.
-177-
�Q.
But is that not almost i~ignifica nt as compared to the amount of fruit shipped
out in barrels?
A. I don't have the exact figures on that, but just my judgment on the matter.
And further this deponent saith not.
MR. JACK SHrFF.LET, State's witness, called in rebuttal, deposes as follows:
Q.
Mr. Shifflet, it has been testified here by Mr. A. M. Turner that on a particular
eight hundred and fifty acres of land in question here, that there is a good
stand of genuine yellow pine. Will you state to the Commission what kind of
pine, if any, you found on this particular eight hundred and fifty acre tract?
A. Well, it is a fairly good stand of what I call scrub or sap pine. There is
very little yellow pine anywhere on the entire area. You will find the yellow
pine on the higher land. In this particular area that has been described here,
I would never have classed it as yellow pine. _I don't say that Mr. Turner don't
know yellow pine and that I do, but I have been cutting timber for the last
thirty-eigh t or forty years, and I never have run into that class of pine that
I placed in the yellow pine family at ell, and this same pine on this tract; in
fact, pretty nearly all of the pine found in that Blue Ridge Mountain and the
lower land there is of that sap pine, and it is very poor for lumber, and poorer
yet for staves. Outside of being for lime barrel use, they don't use pine staves
for apple barrels; and I have been inf'onned, while I am not stating this from
my own knowledge ---
BY R. TAVENER: I object to any testimony by this witness as to what he may have
been informed of by other people, and aatters that are not his own knowledge.
A. (cont'd.)
I will say that pine staves are not used for apple barrel purposes
at all. They are used, however, in apple barrel headings. From a lumber standpoint -- I will say this from my own personal knowledge -- that it makes a very
poor quality of lumber, especially in its young stage. If you want to manufacture any lumber at all out of it, you will have to put it in frames; it will
warp, and in 2x4a it will do the same, unless you edge it and glue it together,
and it is a class that brings from five to eight dollars a thousand less than
the white pine lumber.
Q.
You say it brings from five to eight dollars a thousand less than the white pine?
A. Yes.
Q.
How much less than the yellow pine?
A. That rates right along with the white pine. There is very little difference.
•
Mr. A. M. Turner has also testified here as to the prices of cross ties and
boards and all kinds of lumber; that is, the market price during the last five
or six years. You heard that testimony, I believe. What would you say as to
prices of board and lumber during the years 1930 and 1931 or any years previous
to that?
-178-
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ S?
�A. I think I have a sale book here in my pocket ---•
Q,.
Have you made any sales during the years 1930 and 1931 of cross tie s or any
other lumber?
A. Yes sir, about half a million feet during t hat period.
you keep in close contact with the market and keep up . with the prices as to
different kinds of lumber?
A. I try to, and if I have any railroad stock of any kind to offer, it is
natural that I would seek the very best market , and in doi ng this,in the past
five years I have sold pretty near all my boards to one mand and practically
all the railroad stock to one man, and practically all the export stock to
one man, and the prices for 1930 and 1931 range from eighteen or nineteen dollars. I didn ' t sell any at eighteen, but they tried to buy them for that, but
the last switch ties I shipped I got nineteen dollars for in 1931. The sales
there represent about thirteen or fourteen carloads, I believe, sold to the
Comstock Lumber Company, of Rome, New York. I will state in the beginning that
I asked the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad Company and the Norfolk and Western
Railroad Company for prices on this stock before selling to the Comstock Lumber
Company, and the prices that I got for the same was about two dollars per
thousand feet more than I was offered by the Chesapeake and Ohio or the Norfolk
and Western Railroad Company. In 1930 this stock averaged about twenty-two
dollars per thousand feet . Sales ma.de to the same company in 1931 was nineteen
dollars per thousand feet f.o.b. oars. I also have sane recent sales here on
boards, seventy-one thousand feet sold in September, 1931, sold to the Kentucky
Flooring Company, of Orange , Virginia; prices on the same f.o.b . Orange, Virginia, one common and better, thirty dollars per thousand feet, No. I common,
twenty dollars per thousand, No .. 3 common , fifteen dollars per thousand. This
seventy- one thousanq feet of oak boards, when d~livered at Orange, Virginia,
afterpaying freight on the same, averaged me about fifteen dollars and fifty
cents per thousand feet. White and other pines sold in 1930 and 1931 on con- .
tract price, to the A. Erskine Miller Lumber Yard,at Staunton, Virginia, for
twenty- five dollars per thousand feet, delivered. I delivered that by truck.
This contract of sale with A. Erskine Miller Lumber Company, of Staunton, Virginia, aggregated a sale of approximately seventy- five thousand board feet in
the two ·years . Mr. Miller, in the last settlement with me on the same, stated
that he wouldn't make any more contracts with me for frames and boards.
Do
BY N3 . TAVENER:
witness.
I object to statements that someone else may have made to the
Q. Mr. Shifflet, how does the lumber which you have just testified as to selling,
compare in quality with the lumber on the land which is now in question on the
Mount Vernon tract?
A. There is nothing on the Mount Vernon tract that will compare with the timber
that I out and delivered this stock from, with the exception of the white pine.
The white pine on the Mount Vernon tract is just as good as that.
BYMR. TAVENER: Objection is here made to all statements of this witness in regard
to prices obtained by him for lumber during 1931 for the following reasons: first,
that the date of the institution of the condemnation proceedings for the taking of
this land is the date upon which the value should be detennined; and, second, the
witness has heretofore testified in ttis case and filed his exhibit, in his own handwr iting, stating that the average value of the timber on this tract is $22.50 a
thousand, and that the witness cannot now be heard to contradict or impeach himself.
- 1795
�-•
(By the witness)
average price.
I said when I made that out that it was $2.50 more than the
cross EXAMINATION BY MR. TAVENER:
Q,.
Mr. Shifflet, I understood you to say that the price of this pine, per thousand
feet, at the toe of the· mountain, is ordinarilly about eight dollars less than
the yellow pine, per thousand feet.
A. I said from five to eight dollars.
Q,.
Then Mr. Stoneburner was wrong when he said $1.50 is a fair difference between
that pine'?
A. I don't know what he had in mind. I don't know that he has ever manufacture d
and sold very much lumber.
Q.
Then, if that pine is worth eight dollars more than that, then the yel low pine
there is, according to your original testimony, worth. thirty or fifty dollars
more'?
A. I said it was not worth more than the white pine •• The class or pine there
that I was classing from five to ei ght dollars less in value -- if you take
time to stop in Harrisonbur g, there is a man wants about half a million feet of
that stuff now for frames, and you will find he will offer from fifteen to eighteen dollars for it delivered here f.o.b. his yard.
By Counsel:- Objection is here made to the voluntary statement of the witness as being not responsive to the question.
Q,.
In the manufacturi ng of staves, do you use the white oak timber?
A. Oh yes, for oil barrel or different classes of staves.
Q,.
I am speaking of apple and lime barrels.
A. I have manufacture d a lot of staves. During the war we had nine stave mills
going, but we were working on oil barrels.
Q.
You have not, then, had any experience in the manufacturi ng of apple barrels?
A. None.
And further this deponent saith not.
- 180-
�BY MR. TAVENER
I propos e to show by Mr. Oliver Van, who has been unavoi dably detaine d,
in substan ce, the followi ng:
FIRS!', that he has been ext~si vely engaged j_n the manufa cturing
barrel staves; that he has manufa ctured hundred s of cords of dead chestnu of apple
t into
staves; ·
SECOND, that he has purchas ed that dead chestn ut from the governm ent in
Trout Run, sixteen miles from the railroa d, at sevent y-five cents a cord
on the
stump;
THIID, that he, at the presen t time, has a contra ct with private
for stave wood timber, east of Trout Run, and twelve or thirtee n miles from parties
the
railroa d, a one dollar a cord on the stump;
FOi:mH, that the governm ent, represe nted by Mr. Stoneb urner, has conduc ted experim ents at his mill, lasting over period s of a month or more at a
time, in
compil ing figures as to the number of staves per cord of wood that can be
cut, and
that, from these figures , under ordina ry conditi ons, three cords of stave
wood
is
equiva lent to one thousan d feet of lumber .
The government has been selling , in the Trout Run Section , sixteen miles
from the railroa d, dead chestn ut timber , not stave wood, for three dollars
and on the stump, and live timber, which, I think, is princip ally white oak,a thousat six
dollars a thousan d on the stump .
I propos e, further , to show by this witness that land that has been burned over or cut over thirty or forty years ago, and is known as second growth
timber,
is better adapted for stave wood purpose s than other classes of timber; that
wood people prefer to have a second growth class of timber for staves; that stave
anythin g
over ten inches in diamet er almost invaria bly has to be split in order to
be cut
advanta geously for staves, and for that reason and the additio nal reason
that
quires change or turning of the log on the rack freque ntly for large timber, it retimber
below eight or nine inches is the best adapted for stave materi al •
• •• 000 •• •
- 181-
�™'"'- ~---
7
-r. ,
VIRGINIA IN ':.:H'.I: CIRCUIT COURJ? OF ROCICTNGHAM COUNTY.
The Stc.te Commission on Conservation and Development of the
State of Virginia , Petitioner
v.
Cassandra Lawson Atkins and others , and fifty- two thousand , five
hundred and sixty one acres of lund , more or less , Jefendants.
I
T:7ri t ten or printed evidence subtJli tted by the 2?eti ti oner and the
respective claimants in the cou'i-se of the hearings , und taken
into the possession of the Bo? rd o"f ,_ - :,_,_ is&l Commissioners , together
with tra:oscripts of the stenographic notes of so much of tlle oral
testimonf us was reduced to writing for the record, and separate
m.sps of each of the tracts or parcels of diverse ownership in area
sought to be condemned , which separate maps were submitted by the
petitioner as a part of its ,EfVL_dence as to the nature, churacter,
and elements of value to be ,·t/".iken into consideration in ascertaining
the value of said tracts or po.reels of diverse ownership within the
area described in the petiti?n~
Submitted with o.nd in pursua~'ce of the report filed by the Special
Investigators and members pf , the Board of .,~ppraiso.l Conw:iJ3wners
ap71qD
inted in the above sty;l.,,~d. proceedings, and dated the,f
duy
of
1932.
i"
,:i'.
;:
3ignature of the Secretar30, of the
Board of -~_ppraisal Commissioners
hereto attached to identi:f~ the
'J •___,.
'
en;;,~~- ', ',:
f
/
George :Ievi, Secreta~Y., .Soard
of _!,._ppruisal Cor:Jmissiono/f:ll,·
I
'
~\
I)
:
i
(
j ,"
'
,
/
/
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Rockingham County SNP Records: Court Proceedings
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Rockingham County Circuit Courthouse
Description
An account of the resource
The first series of <span>the SNP Records collection consists of 4,756 documents related to The State Commission on Conservation and Development of the State of Virginia v. Cassandra Lawson Atkins and others, and Fifty-Two Thousand Five Hundred and Sixty-One (52,561) Acres of Land, more or less in Rockingham County, Virginia, court case initiated by the state of Virginia in order to acquire 52,561 acres of privately held land located within the northern Blue Ridge Mountains. </span> The Virginia government in collaboration with the federal government, used condemnation, a process that involves the seizure of an individual's private property for public use, without the owner’s consent, but with payment of compensation, and more formally known as “eminent domain,” to create the Shenandoah National Park. The documents within the collection almost entirely refer to land located within Rockingham County, but other counties within the park’s scope followed a similar process to acquire the land. The documents are broken up into three categories: Deed Books, Miscellaneous Documents, and Condemnation Cases. This collection contains the Condemnation Cases.<br /><br />For more information on the Rockingham County Shenandoah National Park collection, visit the "<a href="https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/erp/findingaids">Finding Aids</a>" tab in the menu above.<br /><br />I<span>n the 1970s and 1980s many of the individuals displaced by the park creation were interviewed in hopes of preserving their stories. To listen to those records visit, </span><a href="http://catalog.lib.jmu.edu/record=b2286919">http://catalog.lib.jmu.edu:80/record=b2286919.</a>
Creator
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Rockingham County Circuit Court
Date
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1925-1935
Identifier
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Snp001
Relation
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<a href="https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/erp/collections/show/2">Rockingham County SNP Records: Deed Books</a><br /><a href="https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/erp/collections/show/3">Rockingham County SNP Records: Miscellaneous Records</a><br /><a href="http://catalog.lib.jmu.edu/record=b2286919">Shenandoah National Park Oral History Collection</a>
Is Referenced By
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<a href="https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/erp/items/show/4526"> Shenandoah National Park Records Finding Aid </a>
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Source
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Williams, James - Yost, Jacob
Identifier
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yost-jacob-trustee.pdf
Title
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Yost, Jacob Trustee
Publisher
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Rockingham County Circuit Courthouse
Description
An account of the resource
Location: Rocky Mountain; Gap Run
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Tract(s): 165, 165-a
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PDF
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This work has been identified as being free of known restrictions under copyright law, including all related and neighboring rights. (<a href="https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/mark/1.0/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/mark/1.0/</a>)
Contributor
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Pake Davis, Tristan Nelson, Liana Bayne
Yost