1 10 997 https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/simms/files/original/Interview_with_Anne_Byrd,_Carol_Raymond,_and_Tonnette_Jackson.pdf bd6cc6fe518211c89d793ee032d21e05 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Anne Byrd, Carol Raymond, and Tonnette Jackson https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/simms/files/original/Simms School Oral Histories/Interview_with_Alice_B._Davis.pdf ca3c98d6aa809b1a31872081fdd9e45e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Alice B. Davis https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/simms/files/original/Simms School Oral Histories/Interview_with_Billo_Harper.pdf 0f3539b3eb8eb1e19062d01824ad72ca PDF Text Text Interview with Billo Harper Lucy F. Simms School Oral History Project Interview status: Open to the Public Name of interviewee: Billo Harper Name of interviewers: Katelyn and Dylan Logan Date of interview:Feb 28, 2023 Duration of interview:00:33:47 Place of interview: Virtual – Google Meets Language of interview: English Katelyn Lough 00:03 Okay, so this is February 28. I'm here with Dylan Logan. And my name is Katelyn Lough, and we are here to be doing the interview today with Mr. Billo Harper. Mr. Harper, can you please verify that you're aware you're being interviewed and this conversation will be recorded? Billo Harper 00:23 Yes, I approve of the audio recording. I don't approve or give any rights of use of my images, my images, but my image in relationship to these questions, but all audio, all comments that I make may be used as needed. And I give approval. Katelyn Lough 00:43 Yes, sir. Thank you so much for being with us today. So to start off the interview, we're going to start with the first question, I believe all of these you have received already. So when did you attend the Simms School? Billo Harper 01:01 Okay, can you do your introduction again? Your name and Logan's name? Katelyn Lough 01:06 Of course. So my name is Katelyn Lough. Dylan Logan 01:09 And I'm Dylan Logan. Billo Harper 01:11 And Katelyn, what year are you at Turner Ashby? Katelyn Lough 01:14 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 1 �I'm a senior at Turner Ashby Billo Harper 01:16 And Logan? Dylan Logan 01:17 I'm a junior. Billo Harper 01:17 Okay. All right. I am ready. Logan and Katelyn. Let's go. Katelyn Lough 01:23 Alright. So when did you attend Simms School? Billo Harper 01:28 I attended Lucy Simms segregated school in 1957 to 1963 when the school closed. I think it closed in '63. But anyway, when it closed... Katelyn Lough 01:38 I believe you're right. Yes. Okay. So did you graduate from the Simms School? Billo Harper 01:43 Yes. I graduated from the middle school of Simms and then I- It only went to the sixth grade when I was there. And after that, I went to Thomas Harrison Middle School in Harrisburg High. Katelyn Lough 01:58 Okay, so how did you get to the Simms School every day? Billo Harper 02:03 The entire Newtown community which was the Black community known as where the Blacks live. We walked to school every day. Everybody [laughs]. Everybody walked to school. Katelyn Lough 02:14 Alright, so it wasn't like nobody drove any cars? Billo Harper 02:19 No. I mean, people - some people - had cars, but we still didn't--we just walked school. Katelyn Lough 02:24 Okay. Billo Harper 02:24 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 2 �You was an adolescent, you know. Whether you was with your mother or father or just with a guardian who took care of you. And someone had a car, they went wherever they was going, but you walked to school. Katelyn Lough 02:39 Even if you were say 10 miles away, you would walk out? Billo Harper 02:44 Now 10 miles away like people from Elkton, they caught a bus... Katelyn Lough 02:48 Okay, there was a bus. Billo Harper 02:49 The people from Luray [as well] because it was segregated. So, Blacks that lived in Luray, lived in Elkton, which is Rockingham County. Katelyn Lough 03:02 Yes. Billo Harper 03:03 They all caught a bus and rode into Simms, which they had to get up like 5:30 or 6:00 in the morning. They'd get up early. [Laughs] I just came out of my back door. Katelyn Lough 03:15 [Laughs] So you were close to the Simms School? Billo Harper 03:19 My house was- My house connected to Simms. Lucy F. Simms School was my playground. Katelyn Lough 03:26 Oh, really? Really? That's amazing. Billo Harper 03:29 Ain't that cool? Katelyn Lough 03:30 Yes. That's the same. So I'm next to Pence Middle School. So, I understand when you say that it's your playground. Dylan Logan 03:41 Me too actually, I used to live next to the elementary school when I went there. Billo Harper 03:44 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 3 �Ain't it beautiful? Katelyn Lough 03:46 Beautiful yes [laughs]. Dylan Logan 03:48 It's a funny coincidence. Katelyn Lough 03:49 So, this bus that you mentioned, was it... So when we--in our classroom--we learned that many of the things were passed down. Was the bus also passed down from like... Billo Harper 04:02 I have no idea because I never rode it. Katelyn Lough 04:04 Okay. All right. I gotcha. Dylan Logan 04:06 Yeah. Katelyn Lough 04:07 So what do you recall from the beginning of your experience at the Simms School? Billo Harper 04:14 The school was an extension of the family and community that raised us. Katelyn Lough 04:23 Yes. We spoke to a few of--some of your classmates. I don't recall their names right now. But they said the community was very strong. It's very tight-knit community here. Billo Harper 04:37 Yes. Yes. It was very tight, Newtown. It was a community and so your home life and your school life was all one and the same. Katelyn Lough 04:49 Oh, wow. So everyone knew everyone. Billo Harper 04:52 Oh! It was no question. No question. No question. Katelyn Lough 04:55 That's great. So were there any specific staff members that you were close to or that you remember very well? [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 4 �Billo Harper 05:02 Well, my kindergarten teacher was Miss Blakey and you know, she was really unique. She provided me with the foundation for learning. There was a Miss Awkard Fairfax. She was also the co-director of pianists for the Simms Mass Choir. I'm quite sure you have seen that mass choir picture. Katelyn Lough 05:26 Yes. Dylan Logan 05:27 Yeah. Billo Harper 05:28 Well, she was educated at Columbia University Teachers College. And she helped me learn the importance of applying myself when doing homework. Also, I'd like to mention Dr. David Hedgley. He was a high school science teacher on the second floor. At Simms, the elementary and middle school was on the first floor and on the second floor was the high school. Katelyn Lough 05:52 So we're on the second floor right now. Billo Harper 05:54 Okay, wonderful. So if you go visit Simms and you go up on the second floor, that was high school. Katelyn Lough 05:59 Yes. We're in what they call the music room right now. So we're in the Simms School. And right before... Billo Harper 06:07 Wait, you're in the Simms School now? Katelyn Lough 06:08 Yes. Yes, sir. Billo Harper 06:09 [Excitedly exclaims] Oh! You guys are interviewing me from Simms? Dylan Logan 06:11 Yeah Billo Harper 06:12 I was getting ready to tell y'all that class right there. That was my sixth-grade class. [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 5 �Katelyn Lough 06:19 This right here. Wow. Billo Harper 06:20 You can look out the window and see my house. Dylan Logan 06:23 Whoa what! Billo Harper 06:24 Yes, you can look out the window and see my house! Katelyn Lough 06:27 [All laugh] That's amazing! Billo Harper 06:30 Oh, also, I wanted to talk about the science teacher, Dr. David Hedgley. I never forget him because my sister and other relatives took his class. And he went--he was only at Simms for one year. He was a science teacher. And he's known as the father of computer graphics. He's a genius! He's 86 years old now. And he left Simms and went to NASA and became a scientist. Katelyn Lough 06:57 Wow. Billo Harper 06:58 He created computer graphics. So, Todd, Katelyn whenever you get a chance, type in Dr. David Hedgley in your Google search and it's gonna come up 'the father of computer graphics'. He taught at Simms. Katelyn Lough 07:15 That's amazing. Billo Harper 07:17 But he only taught one year. Katelyn Lough 07:19 One year. Did you have him for that one year? Billo Harper 07:22 No, he's high school. He was upstairs. Katelyn Lough 07:24 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 6 �Okay. I gotcha. So what was the curriculum or grading like at Simms School? Did any of you have any difficulty with it? Or did you help each other out? Billo Harper 07:39 No, it wasn't for me any issues... major issues. Because we had master teachers. Okay. All of them were Black and had been educated at schools like Howard University, Virginia Union, Fisk, Hampton. And they were all educated from HBCUs. And they were exceptional teachers. Now, sure, there was some young people that had--might have had challenges or learning challenges. But the reality of those challenges was that, you know, they would... What would I say? They would, you know, get attention that they needed. And, you know, that's just the way that came down. Yeah. Katelyn Lough 08:19 Yeah. And those teachers were willing to help. They were very willing to help them. Billo Harper 08:23 Yeah. And then you had some students that were disruptive. And we had some teachers that would straight up just tell you, "Bend your knuckles and hold it out like this." And BOOM! That's right. There was no play. I mean, and this was third and fourth grade. So you knew he was getting a spanking in front of all your classmates. Katelyn Lough 08:58 And is this Miss Awkard Fairfax that you're talking about? Billo Harper 09:02 No, no. I'm not gonna say the name of that teacher. Katelyn Lough 09:05 Oh, you're not going to say, okay. Billo Harper 09:06 No. You know, you have to get that in another conversation. Maybe we talk in private. Katelyn Lough 09:11 Of course, of course. Yes. Billo Harper 09:15 I'm not gonna put one of my favorite teacher's name out there and say, "Oh, she beat you on the knuckles,"' because she did a lot of other things, too. Katelyn Lough 09:22 Oh, of course. We understand. When we were talking with some of the fellow students of your classmates that used to go to the Simms School, they said that Miss Awkard was very well respected with the school. [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 7 �Billo Harper 09:39 And she was a pianist and she was the co-director of the Simms Mass Choir. You see her picture? When you see that picture, you see her standing over on the one side down on the bottom? Dylan Logan 09:48 Yeah. Billo Harper 09:49 And then she was a master pianist. Well, she didn't play. No, she didn't play. But all the teachers had ways of disciplining if you went, excuse me, if you was, you know, acting up. We didn't have social media. We didn't have social media and phones and all of that. Katelyn Lough 10:12 So you just talked. Billo Harper 10:14 Oh, you gotta... It's talking. Yeah. Talking and acting up. Pushing your friend next to you. And yeah, smack him upside the head [laughs]. Stuff like that... Adolescent stuff. Katelyn Lough 10:29 Yes, of course. So, during your time there... When it came to lunchtime, what were the meals like? What was the community like? Did you... Who did you sit with? Where did you sit? Billo Harper 10:42 The food was good. The chef was a local resident of Newtown and was a master cook. The food was also locally grown from local farms. Although we had some manufactured food from some warehouse that the city of Harrisonburg School System, you know. And they were sending food by a truck. But many times, the chef who was in the kitchen, her and most of the time, it was a female, in my years. And Miss Washington was the chef. And I mean, the food was like you had it from your kitchen table at home. Katelyn Lough 11:24 Oh, that's amazing. So, what were your favorite parts of the school? What events did you participate in? What activities? Billo Harper 11:39 What I want to say about that is... Let me see here. I want to be sure I covered this... May Day! Katelyn Lough 11:56 May Day, yes. Billo Harper 11:59 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 8 �May Day was special. Basketball games that we played other schools. Because I was the basketball manager. And y'all seen the picture with me? Right? As the basketball manager? Katelyn Lough 12:17 I believe so. Once or twice. Yes. Billo Harper 12:20 Y'all seen it? Yeah. Yeah, I was the basketball manager of Lucy F. Simms. Y'all not gonna have a problem picking me out, are you? Katelyn Lough 12:37 Oh my... [laughs] Billo Harper 12:41 Y'all can't pick me out. I'm 10 years old. Can you pick me out? Where am I? Katelyn Lough 12:47 You're far left on the top row. Yes, sir. Billo Harper 12:52 Hey, Logan. I was 10-years-old, man. Dylan Logan 12:56 Yeah. Billo Harper 12:57 So that's why I'm saying it's my playground. So when they would go around to Stanton, Winchester, Richmond, Lexington, Clifton Forge, Madison County, Orange County. I would- My mother was working. So after school, the guys would get on the bus and little Billo... I would get on the bus. And I was 10 years old. I'd be carrying the balls and the uniforms. And I did that for like, probably four or five years. Dylan Logan 13:35 Wow. Katelyn Lough 13:37 So that was what you did after school? Most of the time. Billo Harper 13:41 Yeah. And don't ask me when I got homework done [Katelyn laughs]. During basketball season, and I wasn't a particularly bright student, I mean, I'd struggle. Katelyn Lough 13:53 Okay. So how long did that season last? The basketball season? Was it in the fall? [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 9 �Billo Harper 14:00 Probably, you know, at least three or four months. Katelyn Lough 14:04 Okay. So, you mentioned May Day. Can you expand on that? What was it like? What was the start of the day and what was the end of the day? Billo Harper 14:18 You know, May Day was a fun day. And it was acknowledging that spring had arrived. Wrapping the flagpole in the front of the building with confetti paper was the official May Day ceremony. And concerts, food, and school activities made it fun for the whole day. And most of the time, I mean, you know, they had the May Day Queen and so that meant all the mothers and grandmothers and aunts would do dresses for all the girls... And I mean, you know, fellas, we didn't... It didn't mean nothing to us. But the girls would dress up. And then the fellas, it was just a fun day. And it was May Day. It was the first Friday of May. That was May Day. Katelyn Lough 15:04 So to your knowledge did May Day.... Did that happen at every other school? Or was it just at Simms? Billo Harper 15:12 Just Simms, as far as we know. Oh! The other Black schools. But I don't know if it happened at the white schools. I really don't know. Katelyn Lough 15:22 So.. Billo Harper 15:23 Uou have to understand. During Jim Crow and during Newtown. Where the Blacks live. That's what Newtown meant, where the Blacks live. You have Newtown and other cities around America. And it was referred to as... y'all do your own research to see what--any other history in the context of Newtown. But Newtown was where the Blacks lived. That's where we lived in Harrisonburg. So sometimes we didn't know what was going on over by JMU or where Harrisonburg High is now. We just knew Newtown. Downtown was the divider for our community. Katelyn Lough 16:08 So... Billo Harper 16:09 Sometimes we didn't go past Main Street. Katelyn Lough 16:14 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 10 �Okay. And because it was... It felt... divided that way. Did it ever feel suffocating? Or with that community...? Billo Harper 16:27 No, no, no! You didn't feel it. Now, you understood Jim Crow. I mean, the reality of the Virginia Theater that was downtown. As Blacks, we had to sit up in the balcony. So we would go to the movie and just go up to the balcony and watch the movie. We didn't think about "Oh, wow, we want to sit downstairs." Because many times our friends, some of our white friends, that we would meet over the years, they would--we would open the door and they would sneak in upstairs and watch the movie in the balcony with us. Katelyn Lough 17:00 Oh okay. How often did you see movies with your friends? Billo Harper 17:07 Well, when a movie will come out, I mean, remember, and this is... It's horrible. All the movies that would come out would be like Tarzan and Jane. You know, we got tired of Tarzan. Like he's a white man that can control animals. I mean... Oh, that's horrible. That's a whole other conversation. Let's stick to the script. Katelyn Lough 17:30 Okay, okay. So your friendships and relationships at Simms? Did you have a few really close friends? Or did you have a whole group of friends? Was it your whole family? Billo Harper 17:44 Um, we had a lot of friends. Because you live together in a community. I would... The question is...? Ask me the question again. Katelyn Lough 18:11 So can you recall your friendships or relationships that you made during your time at the Simms School? Billo Harper 18:20 Okay, me and my best friends... Because I had numerous best friends. We had wonderful and challenging experiences growing up Black during Jim Crow, with his functional, confrontational reality of that law and the way people's attitudes about it. But for us, we weren't walking around worried, oh, day in and day out about Jim Crow... Our adult parents may have been. The community was beautiful. We had gardens and I mean, we just loved-- We loved the Northeast, we loved Newtown. I mean, Newtown... My mother [Doris Harper Allen]. She has a book coming out about Jim Crow. But once in her earlier book, "The Way It Was, Not the Way It Is," she says in her life, she came up in the '30s and '40s. And she says, "We were poor. We had fun, but we didn't know it." And that was really interesting. And I use that and refer to that because you know, we can get all into what is poor. What is poverty? You know, depends on how you want to frame it. But in terms of our adolescent experience, Katelyn and Logan. We just lived and had a [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 11 �lot of fun and a lot of experiences as friends and we just, you know, we kind of kept it... We kind of kept it moving. And we love Newtown. Katelyn Lough 19:58 Great, that's good to hear. So, what kind of things did you and your friends do after school? You mentioned the movies and you mentioned basketball. But other than that? Billo Harper 20:11 Many of us worked around the house because you always had chores. Katelyn Lough 20:15 Yeah. Billo Harper 20:16 And you got community jobs, you had gardens. And then I was one of the first Black paper route boys in Harrisonburg. I delivered the Daily News Record. Katelyn Lough 20:29 Oh, wow. Billo Harper 20:30 I had to get up at about 4:30 in the morning, and my mother would take me to Daily News Record. And then I would get my papers, and I'd deliver papers. Katelyn Lough 20:42 So did you do this...? How long did you do this for? Throughout high school? Billo Harper 20:46 About four years. I think three or four. But then, that's a whole other story. In terms of being a paperboy, and then deciding that you don't feel like getting up. Then all of a sudden, you're thinking about girls and all of that. A whole lot of other stuff [laughs]. Sometimes, you know, you tired. You played basketball, football. So you don't want to get up. Katelyn Lough 21:14 Of course. Billo Harper 21:15 Yeah. Katelyn Lough 21:17 So you said that you had this newspaper job. But did you have any other jobs growing up as a teenager in Newtown? Billo Harper 21:27 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 12 �Yes, I had a job. I used to go door to door with Sears and Roebucks. And people would order it. And then they would get the products delivered to their house and then I'd make money. And then I had one of my friends be my assistant. Katelyn Lough 21:39 Oh, okay. Billo Harper 21:43 I've been an entrepreneur all my life because of my family. I come from three generations of business owners. Dylan Logan 21:48 Wow. Billo Harper 21:50 Business, I've never known a time when my family didn't own and operate their own business. Katelyn Lough 21:56 So this is, you would say your passion? It's not... You didn't feel forced into business at all? Billo Harper 22:05 No, it's a lifestyle. Katelyn Lough 22:07 Yeah, Billo Harper 22:08 Business was my lifestyle. Yeah, my grandfather's, my grandmother's. Everybody owned and operated their own businesses in Newtown. And they were destroyed by urban renewal. That's a whole other conversation. Let's stick to the script. I'm getting five minutes, and then I'm gonna have to head out. Katelyn Lough 22:33 All right. So what were some of the activities in the community that were available to you? Billo Harper 22:42 In terms of activities, church. Church. What happens at the church was real significant. And in the summer, we would have... I'm not recalling the name... Oh, lawn parties. We had lawn parties, and you'd play games. And lawn parties, I would say were similar like to a circus. Because, you know, the craftsmen of the community would build all kinds of playing objects for games. And then also, we had back in the day, we had a group that came to Harrisonburg from Louisiana. And what was their name... They were called... I can't think of it. I'll think of their name before it's over, or I'll mail it to you. But they used to come from New New Orleans and they would set up a tent over by Washington Street. And they would have dancers and that was [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 13 �like a summer program that would come to the community and they would be there for like a week in the summer. Also, we used to have we used to have our own Black baseball team that would play every Sunday. And that was like a...like a festival. Because, you know, they was playing baseball. So there was picnics. There was car shows because there was a lot mechanics always fixing cars. So they showing off the cars on Sunday. And the baseball games were right there at Lucy F. Simms. Right there on the baseball field. Katelyn Lough 24:39 Wow. Billo Harper 24:40 It was always kind of like I say, we stayed among ourselves. Katelyn Lough 24:48 It sounds like you had a lot of fun. Billo Harper 24:50 Yeah. And it was okay. I mean, there are certain challenges within a family that happen and you have to deal with it. Some of our parents went to war. And so different things happen. And it would test your family. So, you know, life is... Life is beautiful, but sometimes life isn't fair. Katelyn Lough 25:11 Of course. So as we get to kind of the closing of the interview, are there any other stories or memories that you would like to share? Billo Harper 25:24 Um well, you had a question here. Did you finish your questions about why we moved? There was a question. Katelyn Lough 25:36 There was, but I want to respect your time, sir. Billo Harper 25:39 No, but I want to finish up. I'm going to hold for another 5-10 minutes. So we can finish your questions. What's the other question? Katelyn Lough 25:48 So, I was going to ask. When did you move away from Harrisonburg and why did you move? Billo Harper 25:56 I moved 1970. And we moved to Huntington, West Virginia. And my mother got married. She remarried. Her second marriage. But she wanted to get us out of Newtown. She wanted to get us somewhere that was more progressive. Because she felt that there was communities happening somewhere else. And in Huntington, West Virginia. They were very progressive. [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 14 �They had all kinds of really unique, innovative community businesses, housing developments, and she wanted us to be around this. So when my brother and we moved to to Huntington, my brother, so he got there, he was 18. He had graduated from Harrisburg High. He got a job driving a van for this church selling fish sandwiches. Yeah, so she wanted to get us in a more progressive life. So this was 1970. Katelyn Lough 26:50 Okay, and if you could give any advice to your high school self, what would it be? Billo Harper 26:58 Did we miss one of the other questions? Katelyn Lough 27:01 I don't believe so. Billo Harper 27:03 Okay. All right. If you could give advice to your high school self? Why did you move? Okay, I answered that... To my high school self... Wow, you got me on that one. You know, I saw that one earlier. Katelyn Lough 27:23 Take your time. Billo Harper 27:24 Yes, Logan, Katelyn. Let me tell you. I thought about this earlier, I saw the question, my staff is telling me, I missed it. If I could give it, I would say to myself... I would be saying, If I could have asked Mr. Hedgley if I can sweep his floor after class, and carry his bags to the car every day. That would have been just phenomenal for me to say that, Mr. Hedgley... That I swept the floor of Mr. Hedgley for three or four months. And then I'd take his books to his car. And now he's known as a father of computer graphics that we use every day. That would... That's what I would have told myself. Because I was old enough, because I had to clean at home. But when you saw me at 10 years old be a manager. So you know, I could do things. Katelyn Lough 28:28 That's great. Billo Harper 28:29 And I was disciplined. Because my mother... My mother and father and grandmother and grandfather, all of them... They had their own businesses. They didn't tolerate nothing but respect and discipline. So, I came up in that world [laughs]. Oh, and also I love being around geniuses. Dr. Hedgley was a genius. And he still is today. Katelyn Lough 28:55 Of course, of course. [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 15 �Billo Harper 28:57 And he still is at 86. Katelyn Lough 29:00 If you could give advice to high schoolers now, like Logan and I, what would it be? Billo Harper 29:07 Be open to learning from your teachers who care about you. Katelyn Lough 29:13 Yes, sir. Billo Harper 29:14 However, be serious about completion of assignments before they are due. Katelyn Lough 29:21 Yes, sir. Billo Harper 29:22 Don't be waiting. Hey, don't be waiting on the due date. Finish it. Have it ready. That's what I would recommend. Katelyn Lough 29:33 That's great advice for us. Thank you so much. Billo Harper 29:36 Hey, you're most welcome. Y'all take care. And I look forward to... Let me treat both of you to lunch one day in Harrisonburg. I'm up all the time. And I love to treat both of you to lunch. We can go to lunch in Dayton at one of your favorite places. Katelyn Lough 29:52 I live in Dayton. Billo Harper 29:53 I love Dayton. In 1970, the summer of 1970, I was a junior at Harrisburg High. I did it. I worked as a research assistant at Bridgewater College for the Department of Psychology. Katelyn Lough 30:14 Wow. Dylan Logan 30:15 Wow. [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 16 �Billo Harper 30:16 I got--Hey! I got $750 for the summer for working two months. And I did research on the hooded rat. And I was the only one in the lab. And I would give them these little pills. And when we meet and have lunch, I'll tell you more about it. But I would give them these little pills and it was... The research project was studying the non-prescription and prescription drugs. And I did these on a hooded rat for two and a half months. From June and July. And in August, I was on a U-haul, going to Huntington, West Virginia. Katelyn Lough 31:05 Wow. Billo Harper 31:06 All right, y'all take care? Katelyn Lough 31:08 Well, before you go, I'd like to say thank you so much for meeting with us. And I wanted to reiterate what Mr. Van Schaick said before. James Madison University will transcribe our audio and then send it to you so you can get final approval. And then also, they will send you a consent form which you'll sign and send back to us. And once we get your final approval, it'll be up on the Simms website, and you'll be a real part of history that people can listen to, can go on that website and learn more about you and your story. So thank you so much. Billo Harper 31:47 The other thing that I want to be critical of in the consent form have them put my statement about the video piece, of course. Katelyn Lough 31:55 And we will make sure to add that. Billo Harper 32:01 And I didn't tell you, you know other things that I used to do. I used to... I used to ride and take care of horses. Dylan Logan 32:08 Wow. Katelyn Lough 32:09 Wow. Billo Harper 32:10 Yeah. Yeah, I was. I was a groomer for horses. But anyway. I got to head out. And it was really nice meeting you. Katelyn Lough 32:19 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 17 �It was nice meeting you too. Billo Harper 32:20 Yes. Oh, where's Tim at? Is Tim still sitting by you? Katelyn Lough 32:24 He is not in the room with us right now. Would you like me to call for him? Or do you need to leave right now? Billo Harper 32:30 I need to leave but I just want to thank him. Katelyn Lough 32:33 Of course we can pass on the message. Billo Harper 32:35 Okay. And then where's Jennifer? Katelyn Lough 32:38 She's also... She's in the building but not in the room. Billo Harper 32:41 Tell Jennifer, thank you very much. And y'all were exceptional. Katelyn Lough 32:45 Thank you so much. And what is your plan after school and high school? So I want I'm going to Bridgewater College. It's supposed to be a secret right now. But I figured I'd share that with you. I'm going to Bridgewater College. Billo Harper 32:58 Awww! Congratulations. I want to introduce you to my wife, Dr. Harper, who has a new program in the city and she's looking for young leaders like you and Logan. Katelyn Lough 33:09 Oh, wow. That'd be amazing. Dylan Logan 33:11 Yeah. Billo Harper 33:11 She has a program now nonprofit program in downtown Harrisonburg. You can both Google: "Faces For Change." Dylan Logan 33:20 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 18 �I think I might have heard of that before, actually. Billo Harper 33:22 Yeah, Google it, take a look at it. And if you're interested, reach out, send her an email and say, 'I met Mr. Billo and he told me to reach out to you. I'd be very interested to know more about what you do.' Katelyn Lough 33:35 Thank you so much for letting us know. Billo Harper 33:39 Alright. Hey, listen, y'all take care now. Katelyn Lough 33:42 You too Mr. Harper. Dylan Logan 33:44 Have a nice day. Billo Harper 33:46 Bye. Katelyn Lough 33:46 Bye bye. Billo Harper 33:47 Okay. All right. Are we done over here? What else we got to do? Okay, let me get off. I don't take them off. Okay. [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 19 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Billo Harper https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/simms/files/original/Simms School Oral Histories/Interview_with_Sam_Ewell_and_Elizabeth_Rohrer.docx.pdf c8d291d006969dff43d90259d06d881c PDF Text Text Interview with Sam Ewell and Elizabeth Rohrer Lucy F. Simms School Oral History Project Interview status: Open to the Public Name of interviewee: Sam Ewell and Elizabeth Rohrer Name of interviewers: Brody Sigman, Sierra Flowers Date of interview: Jan 20, 2023 Duration of interview: 00:52:16 Place of interview: Lucy F. Simms Continuing Education Center Language of interview: English Interview with Elizabeth Rohrer and Sam Ewell Brody Sigman 00:00 And then I will ask if it's alright if I record this interview? Elizabeth Rohrer 00:05 Yes, of course. Sam Ewell 00:06 Yes. Brody Sigman 00:07 Thank you very much. All right. This is January 20 [2023]. It's a Friday, we are at the Lucy Simms Center and we are interviewing Mr. Sam Ewell and his sister, Mrs. Rohrer, Ms. Ewell as well. So... And the interviewers will be Brody Sigman and [speaking simultaneously] Sierra Flowers. Sierra Flowers 00:26 [speaking simultaneously] Sierra Flowers. Brody Sigman 00:28 Alright, let's get started. Sam Ewell 00:30 Okay. [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 1 �Brody Sigman 00:31 So, first thing that we'd like to ask you is just how it is being back at the Simms Center. I'm sure it's been--it might have been a while since you've been here. Sam Ewell 00:39 It's been a few years. Brody Sigman 00:40 Yeah. Sam Ewell 00:40 No but I was here a couple of years ago. Maybe there was a dance or, last time I was here, there was a dance on. You know. Brody Sigman 00:50 That's fun. Dances are fun. Sam Ewell 00:51 I've seen it, you know, just redone. So they've done a marvelous job. Brody Sigman 00:56 Is there anything that really rings any bells? Brings back some good memories? Sam Ewell 01:01 Well, the auditorium. That's where we had our school meetings and et cetera, et cetera. So, I remember that. Remember that well. Elizabeth Rohrer 01:12 The auditorium was also our gym. Sam Ewell 01:14 That's right. Elizabeth Rohrer 01:15 I do remember that. That the boys played their basketball games, of course on the gym floor. And then we would come to watch the game, we actually set up on the stage to watch the games. Brody Sigman 01:30 Did either of you participate in anything that you would be involved in in the gym and auditorium there? [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 2 �Sam Ewell 01:36 Too young. Elizabeth Rohrer 01:37 Too young. Sam Ewell 01:38 Yeah, because I was here for the... I was here with third, fourth and fifth grade. So, you know... Elizabeth Rohrer 01:44 And I was here for first, second, and third grade. Brody Sigman 01:48 Right. So fairly young, but I'm sure... Sam Ewell 01:51 I still remember. Absolutely. Because I was here. I was here on the day that Kennedy was shot. I remember that exclusively. We called school out around one o'clock because of the news. Brody Sigman 02:05 Did you guys have like a TV in your classroom then, or? Sam Ewell 02:08 No, no. [laughs] Elizabeth Rohrer 02:15 Although, we did have a television in our home, and that wasn't... That was somewhat rare for African Americans to have a television. So I do remember watching it at home. Brody Sigman 02:28 Watching what? Elizabeth Rohrer 02:29 Watching... You know, the news of it. You know, for the rest of the day, there wasn't any other regular programming, you know? So it was all the news about what was happening. Sam Ewell 02:43 Because they dismissed class that day, awfully early. Of course, we were upset. Obviously. I was. Elizabeth Rohrer 02:52 I was, but I think I was ignorant of the political world. [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 3 �Sam Ewell 02:57 Well, yeah, you were what, second grade? Something like that. Brody Sigman 02:59 Pretty young, so... Well, I mean, you guys did say you were here pretty young. But that does mean that you went to some other schools during your school life. So, how does the Simms school compare to those? Sam Ewell 03:18 On a scale of one to five? For Simms, I give them a five. Brody Sigman 03:21 Oh, yeah. Sam Ewell 03:22 Because of professionalism, the principals, the teachers... It was just a cut above. That's what I remember. Because after I left here, I went to Parkview Elementary, in Parkview and it wasn't bad or anything, but you know, just Simms was... Simms was unique and very professional. Matter of fact, the principal, he was very involved. He would stop, ask you questions, quiz you. The principal! I guess that's unheard of today isn't it? Yeah, just... And I guess it also helped that our father and the principal were friends. So he kind of took, he took I guess a little special interest in us. Which, you know, I appreciated. Brody Sigman 04:22 Was the principal at the time Mr. Harris or? Elizabeth Rohrer 04:24 Mr. Giles. Sam Ewell 04:26 Mr. Giles. Leslie H. Giles. In the time I was here. Elizabeth Rohrer 04:33 I have a funny story about Mr. Giles, outside of school. We were visiting in the home where he stayed and his home had a porch swing. And so on this porch swing, I remember sitting with Mr. Giles, and sitting right next to him, and there were two other siblings on this porch swing. We were just swinging along, and the side of the chain breaks. That was just a very comical thing. Sam Ewell 05:11 No one was injured, right? Elizabeth Rohrer 05:12 No one was injured. [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 4 �Sam Ewell 05:13 All right, mmm hmm... So, you know, the memories... The teachers, they were involved. They were... We only... our class sizes was maybe 15? 20? So relatively small classes but the teachers... And we had we had one teacher, Miss Arrington, she was known for her ruler, and you got out of line, you got smacked. You know, she'd smack you across the knuckles. Didn't matter, you know, male, female, you know if you... But everybody, everybody knew it, going into the situation. So she had some things in order. I guess that'd be cruelty today wouldn't it? [laughs] Brody Sigman 06:04 Just a little rough parenting, you know. Sam Ewell 06:09 Just across the knuckles. It'd make you think about it [laughs]. Elizabeth Rohrer 06:15 I was in the second grade in this classroom. So I did have Mrs. Fairfax. Sam Ewell 06:21 This was second grade, wasn't it? [speaking simultaneously] Yes. [speaking simultaneously] Right. Elizabeth Rohrer 06:26 And, you know, I don't really have much memory of... You know, of course we had our individual desk. I think we had individual desks in here. And... yeah. Sam Ewell 06:42 [speaking simultaneously] We did. They were old and beaten up and just marked up, and well, of course, you know we got our school equipment from Harrisonburg High. Elizabeth Rohrer 06:53 Leftovers. Sam Ewell 06:54 Leftovers. Well after they were through with it, they'd pass it down to us. That's what we had to work with--books and everything. Books were are all written into. But hey, it is what it is. But, we flourished. So... Even with ill equipment. So, but that's I guess that's a tribute to the teachers. And adversity. Brody Sigman 07:24 Speaking of teachers, Mrs. Rohrer and Mr. Ewell. But you seem to have fonder memories of the classroom or at least more vivid ones. Did you happen to be educated by Ms. Awkard in this classroom? [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 5 �Elizabeth Rohrer 07:40 It was Mrs. Fairfax in this classroom and-Brody Sigman 07:43 I'm sorry. Elizabeth Rohrer 07:44 No, it's okay. And I guess-Sam Ewell 07:47 I had Ms. Awkard. No, I had Ms. Eubanks. Elizabeth Rohrer 07:50 She was fourth grade, Ms. Awkard was all, was fourth... Oh no [speaking simultaneously], she was second. Sam Ewell 07:53 [speaking simultaneously] Miss Arrington was fourth grade. Elizabeth Rohrer 07:55 Arrington was fourth grade. Sam Ewell 07:56 And Ms. Eubanks was fifth. Elizabeth Rohrer 07:58 Ok, I don't remember the third grade... Sam Ewell 08:00 Ms. Bates, Ms. Bates was third grade. Elizabeth Rohrer 08:02 Ok, so that was third grade. And another memory that I had was going down to the cafeteria that was in the downstairs area. And I remember lunch was 25 cents and I always had to make a big decision. I can either buy the full lunch for 25 cents, or I can get the hot dog and the ice cream sandwich and water. So, I always did like hot dogs and I still like hot dogs today. So it was always a toss up. But the lunches were, you know, full-course, they were a very well-balanced meal. I do remember that. Sam Ewell 08:08 Mmm hmm. Good food. [speaking simultaneously] Elizabeth Rohrer 08:20 [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 6 �[speaking simultaneously] And the big trays. Sam Ewell 08:34 Very good food. It was very good food. Elizabeth Rohrer 08:54 And then the school that we went to after this. It was a three-room school, from first grade to sixth grade. Sam Ewell 09:03 Oh Parkview? Elizabeth Rohrer 09:04 Yeah. And we did thatSam Ewell 09:04 [speaking simultaneously] They didn't have a cafeteria. Elizabeth Rohrer 09:06 We did not have a cafeteria. Sam Ewell 09:08 We were expecting a cafeteria. Uh-uh. You had to pack your lunch. Elizabeth Rohrer 09:08 We had to pack a lunch. So that was a lot of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. [laughs] Sam Ewell 09:16 And potted meat. Who likes potted meat? Elizabeth Rohrer 09:21 They don't even know what potted meat is. Sam Ewell 09:23 You don't know what potted meat is? Elizabeth Rohrer 09:24 That's a good thing. [speaking simultaneously] It's bad stuff. Sam Ewell 09:27 [speaking simultaneously] It's a gourmet dish. It's gourmet. If you're a bum. [laughing] Yes, next. Sierra Flowers 09:44 [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 7 �Speaking a little bit back to talking about the underfunding of the school. Did it really affect you guys as a kid having to understand very quickly what you were at odds with? Elizabeth Rohrer 10:02 I don't believe I had any knowledge of that. But again, I'm six, seven and eight years old. Sam Ewell 10:09 Yeah. What was the question? Sierra Flowers 10:11 Did segregation bother you as a kid, and knowing the underfunding of the school? Sam Ewell 10:20 Well, matter of fact, we just accepted it because we had no other option. Either you accept it or you don't go to school. So we, you know, being in elementary, didn't like it. Because, well, we came from Farmville and we... I went to first and second grade in a one room school. And they had all 12 grades in that one room, with an outside john. In Farmville. [laughing] So Simms was actually a step up for me. Elizabeth Rohrer 11:03 Yeah, actually, yeah. Sam Ewell 11:04 It was. Elizabeth Rohrer 11:05 Quite a bit [laughs]. Sam Ewell 11:05 It was more and more or less a modern facility because the school in Farmville was, you want to talk unequal? Good God. Potbelly stove, windows were leaking in air. And roof leaking, and just... Just it was destituted. Old building. We have 12 grades in one room. But we persevered, because we had no other option. Elizabeth Rohrer 11:38 Now, I think I remember that. I never went to that school. But I do remember the building. It had steps and we would kind of walk up to it. And the building was supported by stone columns, you know? Sam Ewell 11:54 Yeah. Elizabeth Rohrer 11:55 Brick, well not bricks, but they were... [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 8 �Sam Ewell 11:56 [speaking simultaneously] The building was dilapidated. Elizabeth Rohrer 11:58 [speaking simultaneously] Uneven, a stack of stones, you know, in the four corners? Sam Ewell 12:02 Totally dilapidated. Elizabeth Rohrer 12:03 I remember that. Because you could... [speaking simultaneously] Yeah, you know [unclear] [speaking simultaneously] Yeah, you could actually go, you could look under the school... Quite a bit. And I used to go to meet them when they got out of school. Sam Ewell 12:17 And of course when you had to go to the bathroom, you had to go outside. And hopefully there's no line. Elizabeth Rohrer 12:25 Or snakes. [laughing] Sam Ewell 12:27 Or snakes. [laughing] You all just don't know. Just don't know. Elizabeth Rohrer 12:37 But back to Simms... Brody Sigman 12:40 Yeah. On the note of Simms, I know there's a big sense of community here. I definitely get that when I come to the school, when I hear from you guys, I can tell-Sam Ewell 12:48 Oh, absolutely. Brody Sigman 12:49 Lots of community here. And I'm curious about how you were able to feel that sort of in the area around Simms, in the town where you live nearby... Sam Ewell 12:59 Well we lived right up the hill here. In the projects, for three or four years or so. So we, you know, we were definitely part of the community. [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 9 �Elizabeth Rohrer 13:10 And we would have walked to school-Sam Ewell 13:11 Oh yeah, we definitely walked. By the old swimming pool. Brody Sigman 13:16 Harris Pool, I think it was called, right? Sam Ewell 13:18 Yeah, Harris Pool. That's correct. That's correct. That's right. That's right. I remember when it was built. Brody Sigman 13:23 Do you have fond memories of that place? Sam Ewell 13:25 I do. I learned how to swim there in Harris Pool. Elizabeth Rohrer 13:27 I learned how to swim in that pool as well. Sam Ewell 13:30 Right because the lifeguard, the lifeguard threw me in. [laughing] He was a good friend of the family, but he threw me in so I didn't have much of a choice--on the deep end too. So I was scrambling. I learned how to swim though. [laughing] See fond memories, fond memories, yeah. Elizabeth Rohrer 13:55 I remember the highlight of my day, every year here would have been May Day, because it was the event of... the music and wrapping the May pole and... Sam Ewell 14:10 [speaking simultaneously] Warm May, and the weather was warm, after coming through a harsh winter... Elizabeth Rohrer 14:14 [speaking simultaneously] And so May Day was a very wonderful [unclear]Sam Ewell 14:17 And the whole school participated. The whole school participated. Never any violence, dysfunction, none of that. It was amazing. School was amazing. Brody Sigman 14:37 [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 10 �And I know the May Day tradition was carried to a couple other schools by some of the teachers from the Simms Center. Elizabeth Rohrer 14:44 Okay. Brody Sigman 14:45 I don't know that either of you ended up going to any of those schools, but it is still carried out today at some elementary schools and... Yeah. Elizabeth Rohrer 14:53 Good, good. Sam Ewell 14:53 Where they wrapped the May pole? Yeah. That was deep. Never did understand what May Day was about. [laughing] It was a day out of school, that was all I cared about. [laughing] Elizabeth Rohrer 14:56 But I'm pretty sure the teachers probably told us what it was about. But we were there [speaking simultaneously] for the song and the dance. Sam Ewell 15:19 [speaking simultaneously] I wasn't paying attention. I wanted to go outside [laughing]. Brody Sigman 15:30 If you'd like to ask a question Sierra... Sierra Flowers 15:32 Yeah, I was trying to... Ok, walking into the Simms Center, which was the old Simms School, I know that there wasn't a lot saved. Like, reserved, a lot of it is modified and a little bit more modern, like the projectors and everything. Do you think that it takes away some of the memories? Or do you still remember how the school was even after all of the modifications? Sam Ewell 16:12 Oh, I do. Elizabeth Rohrer 16:13 Oh, yeah, I do. Sam Ewell 16:14 Absolutely. Well, third, fourth, and fifth, that's three years. So I have fond memories, you know. I remember exactly how it was. And of course, upstairs was high school. Down here was Elementary. [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 11 �Elizabeth Rohrer 16:29 Which I never would... never had the nerve to walk up those steps. Sam Ewell 16:33 We weren't allowed upstairs either. If the principal called you going upstairs? Uh uh. You in trouble. Elizabeth Rohrer 16:41 Speaking of going upstairs, I do remember one of the things that I had looked forward to, is that it's, and I don't know if I made this rule myself, or if it was reality, but I remember for first, second, and third, I always walked into the building from the back of the building. And I had made it-Sam Ewell 17:06 From back there right? Elizabeth Rohrer 17:07 From back there yeah. And I had made it my goal that when I was coming from fourth grade, I was gonna walk up those front steps. And in my mind, they were a lot of big tall steps. And I was looking forward to walking into the front of the doors. Sam Ewell 17:27 Didn't make a difference to me, front or back. Generally came from the back, because we lived back that way, so we had to walk down to the school. Sierra Flowers 17:43 While, researching about the Lucy Simms community, we read a lot about how it was the only school that was available for black Americans in Virginia. And there was also a lot of students who came from all around like West Virginia. And just like, like really far places from here just to go to this school. Did you guys know about that? Sam Ewell 18:15 Yes. We knew a family called the Moats. They lived in Moatstown in West Virginia. But that was, eventually they got their own school. So you know, I remember I'm vaguely remember some students from West Virginia. But they weren't here [unclear]. When I was here they, I vaguely remember, but you know, they weren't really. Because they built a school over Moatstown in that area there, so obviously they had to come across the mountain. But can you imagine having to come from Moatstown, West Virginia to come to school every day? Man. What do, if you want an education, what you gonna do? You can't go to school five miles away. Brody Sigman 19:07 Gotta travel. [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 12 �Sam Ewell 19:09 You gotta go where the education is. Things have definitely changed, a little. [laughing] Sierra Flowers 19:19 Do you think that there was anything that you were taught or anything big from your experience as a kid in the school that influenced your adult life? Sam Ewell 19:34 They taught us manners. Big on that. Yeah. And respect. You know respect for [speaking simultaneously]. [speaking simultaneously] And respect. That's right, respect for teachers. I don't know what's going on in high school today but I'm willing to bet is not as intensified as it was back then as far as manners and respect, etc. etc. Because, you know, it was Mr. Giles, it was always Mr. or Mrs. And we never really, with the teachers, we never really mingled. They were over here we were over here. And no one, you know, didn't cross that line. You stay in your place. Absolutely. Because if you didn't you had to go home. And then when you were home you're in trouble. They used to call or whatever get word back to your parents that after the day, whatever, you know. And of course, you would suffer the consequences when you get home. Well we never misbehaved, did we? . No. Well, especially not me. But now, hey. We called her super B. Elizabeth Rohrer 20:54 One unspoken rule, or maybe it was spoken, is that the authority, that teachers had authority. Sam Ewell 21:01 Absolutely. Elizabeth Rohrer 21:02 And our parents, the parents always supported that authority. Sam Ewell 21:09 100%. 120%. Well, our father taught here for some years, so. And of course, they knew us, so the teachers all... We were... Our parents were friends with the teachers. They socialized together and stuff, so... Elizabeth Rohrer 21:30 You could never get away with any of that. Sam Ewell 21:34 Right, we had... beeline right to father. Elizabeth Rohrer 21:38 No. Mother. Sam Ewell 21:39 [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 13 �Mother, well, we... You didn't want to go that far. [laughing] Elizabeth Rohrer 21:44 Mom was the disciplinarian. Sam Ewell 21:48 She hit you in your face. And anyway, you learn a lot. Brody Sigman 21:54 Would you say that connection between your father and the teachers was one of the biggest impacts of having him also teach here? Sam Ewell 22:02 Well, we used to go to teachers' homes. You know, when they visit, we would, they would they would pull some of us along with us. And of course, you know, you stay in his room while they conversed over here. And you stay put too. You sit in the chair and that's it don't move. Until you're gotten. Elizabeth Rohrer 22:27 Now, in our family, there would have been six of us kids, you know, so we certainly knew how to entertain ourselves quietly. We would not go interrupt the parents, or interrupt the adults. Sam Ewell 22:46 And plus, we were actually, we came to Simms, then we went to Parkview, making new friends, then we went to John Wayland and John C. Meyer and making even more friends, and went on to High School. So we were... I guess we were used to transitions. [laughing] Elizabeth Rohrer 23:10 [laughing] Living our life. Sam Ewell 23:14 Yeah. Smooth transitions. Elizabeth Rohrer 23:18 Yeah. Sam Ewell 23:19 That was a smooth transition. Sierra Flowers 23:23 Speaking of transitioning, when you had to move schools, how as a brother, did you notice the effects of moving schools had on Mrs. Rohrer? [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 14 �Elizabeth Rohrer 23:38 Hmm, that's a good question. Sam Ewell 23:44 Hmm, what kind of effect did it have on us? Elizabeth Rohrer 23:47 Well, you know, our experience going to a different school. We went from Simms, which was a very large school. And then of course, we went to a school that was just a three room school. And also one of the differences is that when when we left... We left Simms a year before segregation happened. And when we entered Park school, I don't remember that we knew we were going to a school with all white children. We were not told that. And I guess in our minds, it wasn't necessary to be told. Our parents were a part of a plan to help integrate schools in a peaceful way. You know. And I think the biggest difference, it wasn't the color of our skin, the biggest difference is that I came from a classroom of maybe 20 or 30 kids, and in the classroom there, there were six of us. And I was in the fourth and fifth... No, I was in the third and fourth grade, and a total of the third and fourth grade was probably 23 kids. Sam Ewell 25:22 What, in Park school? Elizabeth Rohrer 25:23 Yeah, and that was two classes. So, the major difference was just the size of the building and the size of the room, and no hot lunch. They did have the ice cream though. Sam Ewell 25:42 And also, there was never really a problem with us as far as Black and White. Never a problem. Smooth transition. I've never been involved in a fight in my life; not physically. So, all through school, never any fisticuffs. I was ready. [laughing] But anyway, I never had any problems, even in Broadway when I was the only Black student there. Out of 800 students. I never had any problems as far as any physical altercation, the whole four years. I came close, but then I thought, truly you're not going to win this. So, you know it's you against 800. No. The odds weren't good, so I kind of had to back up or whatever. I didn't back down, but I reasoned, I said, 'Hold it. You fight one, you might have to fight 30. Hmm... That's not good odds.' But anyway, I came to Broadway High School without any altercations whatsoever. Am I right there Beau? [speaking to Beau Dickenson] You wouldn't know that would you? Beau Dickerson 27:12 I don't have access to the records. Sam Ewell 27:15 You went to Broadway right? Beau Dickerson 27:17 [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 15 �I did, yeah. Sam Ewell 27:17 Right. You're a Gobbler. Beau Dickerson 27:19 I am. Sam Ewell 27:20 You're a Gobbler, that's right. Elizabeth Rohrer 27:22 A decade later? Sam Ewell 27:27 You were there the 80s? 90s? Beau Dickerson 27:30 I graduated high school in '97. Sam Ewell 27:35 Oh, wow. Elizabeth Rohrer 27:35 '97? So that's two decades. [laughing] Sam Ewell 27:37 I graduated '71, so... Beau Dickerson 27:41 I was the last year at the old Broadway High School. Sam Ewell 27:43 Yeah, I was at Broadway when they first installed lights on the football field matter of fact. That was a big deal. Because before then, we played Saturday afternoons. Now we went to Friday nights. Big deal, big deal, but anyway. Sierra Flowers 28:08 What was the average school day like for you guys, and what teachers did you spend the most time with? Elizabeth Rohrer 28:17 Okay now we're back at Simms? [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 16 �Brody Sigman 28:19 Here at the Simms Center, yeah. Sam Ewell 28:26 That's when I had Ms. Eubanks. Fifth grade. Well you know... Not anything extraordinary but just, you know, well the good thing was you got you got equal attention from your teachers. I did. I mean, the whole class got got equal attention, that I remember. Elizabeth Rohrer 28:52 I would remember that as the same. I would have been an extremely shy, quiet person. So, I never would have drawn attention to myself or asked for... Sam Ewell 29:05 We were taught not to draw attention to ourselves. Elizabeth Rohrer 29:12 So to answer your question, spending the most time, I would, I guess-Sam Ewell 29:18 I'd say it was Mrs. Eubanks, fifth grade. Elizabeth Rohrer 29:20 And I think for me, I didn't have any more time with any one teacher. Sam Ewell 29:24 Yeah, I was closest to her [Mrs. Eubanks] I know, of all the three teachers here. Brody Sigman 29:31 How about any specific memories from the Simms school, like any stories you'd just love to tell that are about this place, or something that might have been fun or funny that happened here? Sam Ewell 29:48 Whenever we walk down the hall, and we saw the principal, Mr. Giles, coming we all got to the side [laughing]. I remember that. And walked in a straight line, because he, I remember, he stuttered. He had a stutter. And if he pointed you out, or, what he would do, he would pull you to the side, and have you spell 'Philadelphia' [laughing] in front of your, you know... So the pressure was, you know, and of course, you know, 'sausage' or whatever... I remember that. So, that's one of the memories I have of here. I learned a lot too, so. And, like I said, this is a community school. Yeah. Very, very tight. Because, you know, our uncles went here. Our aunts went here. The teacher knew my uncles, aunts, mother, etc. etc. So very close knit. Elizabeth Rohrer 31:08 I remember learning to read, and the books, the little paperback, little flimsy books. It was-[Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 17 �Sam Ewell 31:17 Dick and Jane? Elizabeth Rohrer 31:18 See Dick go. See Sally run. See Timmy in the wagon [laughing]. But, I enjoyed learning to read. Sam Ewell 31:28 I guess, when I got here I could read, because I was third grade. So you, you got to experience the beginnings beginnings. Elizabeth Rohrer 31:43 See, there was one particular, one day that everyone else left for school on time and I was late. And then I had to walk by myself. And then, I knew that I was out of notebook paper. And I was supposed to go into my sister's second grade classroom to get some notebook paper from her. Well, I have mentioned that I was a very shy child, and so I walked partway to school. And then I stopped at the corner of where the swimming pool was, and I was just crying, and some neighbor woman called my mother. So mom came up to get me, she took me home. She spanked me with a bedroom slipper [laughing]. Sam Ewell 32:41 That's the only beating you ever got, wasn't it? Elizabeth Rohrer 32:44 I got two [laughing]. I remember that. That was a bad day. Sam Ewell 32:53 When we first got here we were at a disadvantage too, because we had lost a whole half a year of school, where we could not attend. So we got here, we started school in January. So January through the spring. The decision was made to hold us back a year, so we, they held us back a year so, so I had to repeat third grade. Did you repeat first grade? Elizabeth Rohrer 33:20 I had to have, but I have no really memory of first grade. Sam Ewell 33:26 I remember. Elizabeth Rohrer 33:26 This and then-Sam Ewell 33:28 Which I didn't mind because it didn't matter then. School was school. [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 18 �Elizabeth Rohrer 33:32 Yeah. Some background. The reason we missed six months is because our family, we were in Farmville, Virginia and in 1959, of course, Farmville closed the schools. And, so that is why when we moved then back to Harrisonburg. And we missed all that time. Sam Ewell 33:56 And also our father taught at Robert C. Moulton. He was the vice principal. He lost his job. So we had to end up coming up here. Boom. So we lost like six months of schooling. But then again, there's some kids that when Farmville lost four or five years of school. Horrible, just horrible. Elizabeth Rohrer 34:27 And then, that being said, I would say that our parents handled the situation very, very well with us. They... We were never taught to have any resentment, any regrets. You know, it was just the way things happened, and then we just do the best we can, and move on. Sam Ewell 34:53 Roll with the punches. Sierra Flowers 34:59 How did being forced to move schools affect you and the attitudes of those around you? Elizabeth Rohrer 35:08 I guess for us we were not forced, it was a family decision. Well, it was our parent's decision, you know, for us to move and like I said, we were... Sam Ewell 35:19 We accepted it. Elizabeth Rohrer 35:20 We went... We were there a year earlier in 1964 when, for Simms, they were open until 1965. Brody Sigman 35:33 I've noticed you guys have both mentioned the pool in some of your stories. So, I just wonder if there's any other locations you remember like restaurants or maybe like, I believe there was a barber shop called Turner's or... Sam Ewell 35:46 Blakey's. Brody Sigman 35:46 Blakey's. [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 19 �Sam Ewell 35:46 Blakey. Mr. Blakey, 25 cent a haircut. I remember that. The skin too. You know, back then you got, you know, a kid got out of the barber's chair. Elizabeth Rohrer 36:01 Looks familiar? It's just white now. Sam Ewell 36:03 I'm just saying. I wasn't asked how I wanted my hair cut. You sit in the chair, you got a buzz, that was it. 'I want a fade.' 'Uh-uh.' [laughing] Not then. But you know so, ladies barbershop. You used to be a customer, etc. etc. Elizabeth Rohrer 36:31 Because it was a Roses department store, which is still here, and there was a Safeway... Sam Ewell 36:36 W.T. Grant. Elizabeth Rohrer 36:38 Grocery store. W.T. Grant? Sam Ewell 36:41 Which is Roses now. It opened as a W.T. Grant. Elizabeth Rohrer 36:45 Really? Really. Mmm hmm. Okay. Sam Ewell 36:50 Of course, W.T. Grant's out of business, but hey, that's what it opened as. And that was a big deal too. It was right, right below the section. Elizabeth Rohrer 37:02 Another location, I remember: Broad Street Mennonite Church. Which is on Broad Street. And that that was a church that was started, I believe, by Eastern Mennonite College as an outreach. And we would go there for Bible school. And... Sam Ewell 37:27 That's right. Vacation Bible School, exactly. Elizabeth Rohrer 37:29 And we had an aunt that lived right at, a great aunt that lived across the street. So I do remember that we would, at my great aunts house, she would get a watermelon, and we would [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 20 �take our slices of watermelon and sit on the church steps to eat and spit the watermelon seeds out. And why I remember that, who knows? Sam Ewell 37:51 And of course, during the 60s, we weren't, we didn't have the opportunity to go to a lot of restaurants because we weren't allowed, because of the segregation laws, etc. etc. So, and there weren't really a lot of Black restaurants? No. Not in Harrisonburg, no. Elizabeth Rohrer 38:07 I don't think we have any now. Sam Ewell 38:12 We ate home a lot, so. We had a Kenney Burger. Elizabeth Rohrer 38:14 We didn't go out. Oh, yes. [laughing] That's not school related [laughing]. But I'll tell you anyway. Brody Sigman 38:24 All right. Elizabeth Rohrer 38:25 As a teacher, dad got paid once a month, and so one of the most family fun things we would do would be to, so there's eight of us in a car, go to Kenney's Burgers and we would all get our drink, our french fry, and our hamburger. The hamburger was 15 cents a burger. Of course, we ate in the car because mom didn't let us get out. But, that was... Sam Ewell 38:53 That was a big night. Elizabeth Rohrer 38:54 Oh, yeah. Sam Ewell 38:54 Big night, big night. Elizabeth Rohrer 38:56 And they were big spenders. That night. Sam Ewell 39:02 Going back to when you mentioned the Mennonite school, how did... Was there any was there, like a culture shock of Mennonites versus the Simms school, or the community? I never attended the EMHS. I went to Broadway High. [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 21 �Elizabeth Rohrer 39:29 No, I think she's talking about the elementary school. Sam Ewell 39:31 Oh, Parkview? Elizabeth Rohrer 39:33 Are you talking about Park school, the elementary school? Sam Ewell 39:35 No, it wasn't a culture shock, to me. Elizabeth Rohrer 39:40 Is that your question? Sierra Flowers 39:44 I thought you mentioned the Mennonites' school for... Sam Ewell 39:48 She went to EMHS too. Elizabeth Rohrer 39:49 I did go to the high school. So was there... There wasn't for me because I was a part of the--very very much a part of the Mennonite community from the time I was 10. You know, because we attended the church and we attended in the summer times...to go to Bible school. I think I probably went to every Bible school out there if time allowed. So, that was not--I was already immersed in that community. Brody Sigman 40:31 Would you say then, that the churches were a big center of community for the Black community in the Harrisonburg area? Or... Elizabeth Rohrer 40:39 No... Sam Ewell 40:40 Not the Mennonite church. Elizabeth Rohrer 40:41 No. That was a big center for our family because we actually moved into a Mennonite community. But, to answer your question about church, I do remember going to, when when we lived in this community, I remember going to AME... AME? African... [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 22 �Sam Ewell 41:06 Methodist Episcopal. Elizabeth Rohrer 41:07 Episcopal Church, on Kelly Street. And it had a potbelly [stove]-Sam Ewell 41:12 Remember Miss Stewart? Mr. Stewart's mother and Mr. Stewart? Yeah. Elizabeth Rohrer 41:17 [simultaneously] Yeah, that's right, they had the store. I would go and get my penny cookie. Oh, yeah. But the church. We would go to the church, and for Sunday school, and we didn't often stay for the worship service. But I do remember one time that we decided that we were going to stay for the worship service and that was a very... The adults got very, very emotional. They were literally standing up singing, dancing in the aisles, and my aunt did it too. I thought, what are they doing? But anyway, I remember that particular day. And so, then, the church was a part of the African American community. Yeah. Sam Ewell 42:12 Oh, that one? Yeah AME. Yeah, absolutely. Elizabeth Rohrer 42:14 It was. Sam Ewell 42:15 And Miss Stewart. Elizabeth Rohrer 42:16 Yeah. And then he had mentioned the grocery store. And we lived close enough to the grocery store that we would--we could walk. And... Sam Ewell 42:30 The only grocery store in the community. Elizabeth Rohrer 42:31 Yeah, and our... Sam Ewell 42:33 [simultaneously] or, convenience [store]. Elizabeth Rohrer 42:33 Our parents never gave us money to go to the store to buy the bubble gum and the cookies, but we always looked around the neighborhood and we picked up pop bottles, and you got two cents deposit for a pop bottle. So I'd get three bottles, and then go down and get my one penny [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 23 �cookie and I'd pay five cents for my chewing gum. That was my thing for the beginning of the weekend. So that I could chew gum all weekend. Brody Sigman 43:08 What was that store called? Elizabeth Rohrer 43:11 We called it Miss Lena's. Sam Ewell 43:12 [simultaneously] Miss Lena's. Elizabeth Rohrer 43:13 Miss Lena's store that was... Sam Ewell 43:14 Lena Stewart. Elizabeth Rohrer 43:16 And it was a situation where the store was in the front of a long house, and so... Sam Ewell 43:27 No, it was to the side of the house. Because the house was here, and then the store was over here. Elizabeth Rohrer 43:33 Yeah, and it was a long narrow store then. Sam Ewell 43:35 Well, it only had one aisle. Yeah, it had one aisle. Yeah, okay. You had the candy cases, etc, etc, and the pops and all that-Elizabeth Rohrer 43:44 And it seems like she just sold candy-Sam Ewell 43:48 She sold junk, that's basically what she sold [laughing], nothing but junk. Elizabeth Rohrer 43:53 You know I don't remember ever seeing food, but we wouldn't... Sam Ewell 43:55 Junk. [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 24 �Elizabeth Rohrer 43:56 But we wouldn't have looked for food either. Sam Ewell 43:58 We weren't interested in food. Elizabeth Rohrer 44:01 But, I guess, and our mom, if we took the time to gather the pop bottles, she'd let us walk down to the store and buy what we wanted. Sam Ewell 44:15 It's your six cents. Elizabeth Rohrer 44:16 Yep. [laughing] Sam Ewell 44:20 What would six cents buy you now? Brody Sigman 44:22 Probably nothing. Elizabeth Rohrer 44:23 Nothing. I don't think you could get anything for six cents. By the way, I was born in 1954, so I'm not but so old. Sierra Flowers 44:35 Thinking about Harrisonburg as a kid to Harrisonburg now, how do you think the city has changed over the years? Sam Ewell 44:47 Two words. James Madison. Elizabeth Rohrer 44:53 Well, that's why the city has changed. Sam Ewell 44:56 Absolutely. That's the reason why they--the growth. Elizabeth Rohrer 45:01 I would say yes to that. But I would also say that our city has changed because we have churches that welcome immigrants. And immigrants just gives us so much flavor and so much [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 25 �diversity and so much good. And if we, you know, if we think about the foods that are available to us in this--and I consider has a small community--the different variety of foods that are available, it's just a wonderful thing. And that is a very good difference, and it's because of the--it's because of our attitude of accepting and welcoming immigrants. Sam Ewell 45:55 Right, because 70s--60s ,70s--Harrisonburg was not very inclusive. At all. But then the 80s, it opened up so immigrants... Farmville, Turkey plant... We had a lot immigrants through there, so you know, anyway. Things changed. Brody Sigman 46:19 What were maybe some of the first sights and smells you remember when you came to Harrisonburg? Sam Ewell 46:26 When I came to Harrisburg? Brody Sigman 46:28 Yeah, like when you were forced to move from the Farmville area, and you came up here towards the... Sam Ewell 46:34 Well we left country and came to country. [laughing] Brody Sigman 46:35 Yeah, I guess that's a good point. Sam Ewell 46:38 Farmville? Elizabeth Rohrer 46:39 No, but Harrisonburg was a bigger area. Sam Ewell 46:44 Well it's bigger than Farmville Elizabeth Rohrer 46:46 Harrisonburg's a bigger community. Sam Ewell 46:47 Not much. Any anyway, right. Well... Elizabeth Rohrer 46:52 [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 26 �Well, and I would say when we lived in Farmville, we were in, you know, of course, in a house. And we were--our neighbors were pretty far apart. And then moving to Harrisonburg... Sam Ewell 47:06 On River Road, right? Elizabeth Rohrer 47:07 Yeah, and we lived a couple places there. But then, and then coming to Harrisonburg, when we moved here, you know, we went into what, we called it the projects or the Federal Housing up on up on Lincoln Circle. But, an experience that is unique to Sam and I is when our family moved here, and we did not have... our homes not available. The federal housing was not available. And so we moved into a two room duplex house with my great aunt. Two bedroom. Two bedroom. So there's two bedrooms, living room in the front, and a kitchen in the back with a wood stove. Cook stove. I loved that cook stove. It did have a bathroom, an indoor bathroom. But, there was... in our family there were eight of us. And already at that house, my great aunt lived there, she had a bedroom, and in the other bedroom there were three uncles that live there. So then where we stayed for, I don't know, a couple of months? My memory isn't very good. It's kind of like we were camping out-Sam Ewell 48:50 Along with Anthony, Sherry. Wasn't very long. --the whole time. But, mom and dad slept in a chair and us six kids, we had a sofa that laid flat and us six kids slept on the sofa. Brody Sigman 48:54 Wow. Elizabeth Rohrer 48:54 You know Margaret talks about them being there but I think-Sam Ewell 48:57 They were there. Elizabeth Rohrer 48:58 You sure they weren't just visiting? Sam Ewell 48:59 No they lived there too, for a minute. It was like twenty people in that house, it was unbelievable. Elizabeth Rohrer 49:05 But you know, it's a time, people do what they have to do-Sam Ewell 49:10 Absolutely. [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 27 �Elizabeth Rohrer 49:12 Family does what you have to do, to kind of hold each other until-Sam Ewell 49:17 And always orderly, very orderly. The whole situation was orderly. Elizabeth Rohrer 49:22 Oh, yeah. They wouldn't-Sam Ewell 49:23 No fighting. No arguing. None of that mess. Elizabeth Rohrer 49:24 They wouldn't let us fight with each other. Absolutely not. Sam Ewell 49:28 Iron fist. Elizabeth Rohrer 49:31 Well, we knew that there was a threat. You know, we talked about that, there was the threat of an iron fist, but it was never needed to use it, because we knew, you know, when mom would say, "Now, I did say stop." She doesn't have to tell you a second time because if you don't stop, she will smack you across the face and tell you, "Go over there and sit down." And you don't want that smack. So you know it just, we just, it never really would happen because-Sam Ewell 50:03 All it took was a look. Elizabeth Rohrer 50:05 Yes. [laughing] Sam Ewell 50:08 You knew when to stop. Anyway. Beau Dickerson 50:11 Mr. Longacre texted me that they're about to wrap up. So we, I don't know if this would be an opportunity to ask if there's anything that we failed to ask that you would you like to share? Sam Ewell 50:23 I think we pretty well covered it. As far as I-Elizabeth Rohrer 50:26 You all have asked very good questions. [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 28 �Brody Sigman 50:28 Thank you very much. You've given awesome responses. It's been great to talk to you. Elizabeth Rohrer 50:32 We hope it is something useful. Sam Ewell 50:36 Childhood through high school. Then you get married, have kids and all that. So... [laughing] And grandchildren. Brody Sigman 50:51 I've got, yeah, I've got a grandma that's close to your age. And I was telling her about the visit yesterday. She was very excited to hear about it. So I'll be-Elizabeth Rohrer 51:00 Good. Brody Sigman 51:00 --sure to tell her. Sam Ewell 51:01 This is important. This is important. Brody Sigman 51:03 Yeah. Sierra Flowers 51:03 Did you think I was like, having firsthand experience from being at the Lucy Simms school? Did you think like, it would ever become this important time in history? Elizabeth Rohrer 51:17 Oh, no. Sam Ewell 51:18 No, not a time, it was just school. But you know, just, as time went on, you know, so... It's vital that this story gets out to people. Of Lucy Simms and the history etc. etc. Because we have some folks in government that's trying to squash it. As you all well know. Elizabeth Rohrer 51:43 Well, that being said, I would say that all of us, all of you, have important things in your life that happens. And you too have a story. [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 29 �Sam Ewell 51:55 You got your whole life in front of you so, choose wisely. [laughing] Mmm hmm. Brody Sigman 52:05 With that, I think we'll call the interview to a close, we'll let Josh stop the recording and we'll just thank you for your time. Elizabeth Rohrer 52:14 You're certainly welcome. [Sam Ewell & Elizabeth Rohrer – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 30 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sam Ewell and Elizabeth Rohrer https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/simms/files/original/Simms School Oral Histories/Interview_with_Billo_Harper_-_Annotated_by_Mr._Harper.pdf 78138380c6093916424354414f604bc3 PDF Text Text Interview with Billo Harper Lucy F. Simms School Oral History Project Interview status: Open to the Public Name of interviewee: Billo Harper Name of interviewers: Katelyn and Dylan Logan Date of interview:Feb 28, 2023 Duration of interview:00:33:47 Place of interview: Virtual – Google Meets Language of interview: English Interview with Billo Harper Katelyn Lough 00:03 Okay, so this is February 28. I'm here with Dylan Logan. And my name is Katelyn Lough, and we are here to be doing the interview today with Mr. Billo Harper. Mr. Harper, can you please verify that you're aware you're being interviewed and this conversation will be recorded? Billo Harper 00:23 Yes, I approve of the audio recording. I don't approve or give any rights of use of my images, my images, but my image in relationship to these questions, but all audio, all comments that I make may be used as needed. And I give approval. Katelyn Lough 00:43 Yes, sir. Thank you so much for being with us today. So to start off the interview, we're going to start with the first question, I believe all of these you have received already. So when did you attend the Simms School? Billo Harper 01:01 Okay, can you do your introduction again? Your name and Logan's name? Katelyn Lough 01:06 Of course. So my name is Katelyn Lough. Dylan Logan 01:09 And I'm Dylan Logan. Billo Harper 01:11 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 1 �And Katelyn, what year are you at Turner Ashby? Katelyn Lough 01:14 I'm a senior at Turner Ashby Billo Harper 01:16 And Logan? Dylan Logan 01:17 I'm a junior. Billo Harper 01:17 Okay. All right. I am ready. Logan and Katelyn. Let's go. Katelyn Lough 01:23 Alright. So when did you attend Simms School? Billo Harper 01:28 I attended Lucy Simms segregated school in 1957 to 1963 when the school closed. I think it closed in '63. [Harper note: Correction, I attended from 1957 to 1966.] Katelyn Lough 01:38 I believe you're right. Yes. Okay. So did you graduate from the Simms School? Billo Harper 01:43 Yes. I graduated from the middle school of Simms. It only went to the sixth grade when I was there. And after that, I went to Thomas Harrison Middle School in Harrisonburg High. Katelyn Lough 01:58 Okay, so how did you get to the Simms School every day? Billo Harper 02:03 The entire Newtown community which was what the Black community known as, where the Blacks live. We walked to school every day. Everybody [laughs]. Everybody walked to school. [Harper note: I walked out my back door. I lived at 214 Kelley Street. The house remains there today.] Katelyn Lough 02:14 Alright, so it wasn't like nobody drove any cars? Billo Harper 02:19 No. I mean, people - some people - had cars, but we still didn't--we just walked school. [Harper note: Community folks drove cars, however, Simms was in walking distance, so we walked.] [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 2 �Katelyn Lough 02:24 Okay. Billo Harper 02:24 You were an adolescent, you know. Whether you were with your mother or father or just with a guardian who took care of you. And [if your mother, father, or guardian] had a car, they went wherever they were going, but you walked to school. Katelyn Lough 02:39 Even if you were say 10 miles away, you would walk out? Billo Harper 02:44 Now 10 miles away like people from Elkton, they caught a bus... Katelyn Lough 02:48 Okay, there was a bus. Billo Harper 02:49 The people from Luray [as well] because it was segregated. So, Blacks that lived in Luray, lived in Elkton, which is Rockingham County. [Harper note: Students rode the bus if they were coming from the counties; Page Country and Rockingham County, particularly Luray and Elkton.] Katelyn Lough 03:02 Yes. Billo Harper 03:03 They all caught a bus and rode into Simms, which they had to get up like 5:30 or 6:00 in the morning. They'd get up early. [Laughs] I just came out of my back door. [Harper note: Because of segregation, students had to get up early like 5:30 or 6:00 in the morning. They rode past white schools, and because of segregation they couldn’t attend. For me, my brother and sister we just came out of our back door to attend school.] Katelyn Lough 03:15 [Laughs] So you were close to the Simms School? Billo Harper 03:19 My house connected to Simms. Lucy F. Simms School was my playground. [Harper note: I had the great benefit of having a house at 214 Kelley Street, it was live having my back yard connected to the Simms School.] Katelyn Lough 03:26 Oh, really? Really? That's amazing. [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 3 �Billo Harper 03:29 [That was really cool]. Katelyn Lough 03:30 Yes. That's the same. So I'm next to Pence Middle School. So, I understand when you say that it's your playground. Dylan Logan 03:41 Me too actually, I used to live next to the elementary school when I went there. Billo Harper 03:44 [Isn’t] it beautiful? Katelyn Lough 03:46 Beautiful yes [laughs]. Dylan Logan 03:48 It's a funny coincidence. Katelyn Lough 03:49 So, this bus that you mentioned, was it... So when we--in our classroom--we learned that many of the things were passed down. Was the bus also passed down from like... Billo Harper 04:02 I have no idea because I never rode it. [Harper note: However, its possible that the buses may have been passed down. The books where always hand-me-down books, and the football, basketball and choir uniforms where always passed down. The Simms teachers always had to cover the books, and the coaches had to get the uniforms repaired that were hand-me-downs from Harrisonburg High School.] Katelyn Lough 04:04 Okay. All right. I gotcha. Dylan Logan 04:06 Yeah. Katelyn Lough 04:07 So what do you recall from the beginning of your experience at the Simms School? Billo Harper 04:14 The school was an extension of the family and community that raised us. [Harper note: Living in a community during segregation and Jim Crow, you were conditioned to accept the reality, but [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 4 �understanding getting an education was your vision and mission in life, that could provide the possibility of creating a better life for you, family, and community.] Katelyn Lough 04:23 Yes. We spoke to a few of--some of your classmates. I don't recall their names right now. But they said the community was very strong. It's very tight-knit community here. [ Billo Harper 04:37 Yes. Yes. It was very tight, Newtown. It was a community and so your home life and your school life was all one and the same. [Harper note: Looking out for each other and always being serious about showing the respect for your teachers and working hard to be successful in getting the best out of your education experience, all despite being in a segregated world.] Katelyn Lough 04:49 Oh, wow. So everyone knew everyone. Billo Harper 04:52 Oh! It was no question. [Harper note: Living in Newtown, you had to be close and share things. It was a lesson you learned early in life. Now understand, everyone living there may not have shared for various reasons, my immediate family members were unique and provided leadership in various ways, through home ownership, having our own businesses, as members of civil organizations, and elders of the churches.] Katelyn Lough 04:55 That's great. So were there any specific staff members that you were close to or that you remember very well? Billo Harper 05:02 Well, my kindergarten teacher was Miss Blakey, she was really unique. She provided me with the foundation for learning. There was a Miss Awkard Fairfax. She was also the co-director of pianists for the Simms Mass Choir. I'm quite sure you have seen that mass choir picture. [Harper note: The picture is on the wall of the entrance of the Simms. I worked with EMU school of communications to restore the photograph and professionally install it in the historical building Simms.] Katelyn Lough 05:26 Yes. Dylan Logan 05:27 Yeah. Billo Harper 05:28 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 5 �Well, she was educated at Columbia University Teachers College. And she helped me learn the importance of applying myself when doing homework. [Harper note: She as all the teachers during Jim Crow, work hard with less resources to provide instruction in educational learning which allow me to be successful in business and community development.] Also, I'd like to mention Dr. David Hedgley. He was a high school science teacher on the second floor. At Simms, the elementary and middle school was on the first floor and on the second floor was the high school.[Harper note: When Simms High School students moved to Harrisonburg High in the 60’s, our middle school moved to the second floor, to expand learning opportunities.] Katelyn Lough 05:52 So we're on the second floor right now. Billo Harper 05:54 Okay, wonderful. So if you go visit Simms and you go up on the second floor, that was high school. Katelyn Lough 05:59 Yes. We're in what they call the music room right now. So we're in the Simms School. And right before... Billo Harper 06:07 Wait, you're in the Simms School now? Katelyn Lough 06:08 Yes. Yes, sir. Billo Harper 06:09 [Excitedly exclaims] Oh! You guys are interviewing me from Simms? Dylan Logan 06:11 Yeah Billo Harper 06:12 I was getting ready to tell y'all that class right there. That was my sixth-grade class. Katelyn Lough 06:19 This right here. Wow. Billo Harper 06:20 You can look out the window and see my house [Harper note: at 214 Kelley Street]. Dylan Logan 06:23 Whoa what! [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 6 �Billo Harper 06:24 Yes, you can look out the window and see my house! Katelyn Lough 06:27 [All laugh] That's amazing! Billo Harper 06:30 Oh, also, I wanted to talk about the science teacher, Dr. David Hedgley. I never forgot him because my sister and other relatives took his class. He was only at Simms for one year. He was a science teacher. And he's known as the father of computer graphics. He's a genius! He's 86 years old now. And he left Simms and went to NASA and became a scientist. Katelyn Lough 06:57 Wow. Billo Harper 06:58 He created computer graphics [as we use it today]. So, Todd, Katelyn whenever you get a chance, type in Dr. David Hedgley in your Google search and it's gonna come up 'the father of computer graphics'. He taught at Simms [on the second floor]. Katelyn Lough 07:15 That's amazing. Billo Harper 07:17 But he only taught one year. Katelyn Lough 07:19 One year. Did you have him for that one year? Billo Harper 07:22 No, [Dr. Hedgley] was a high school [teacher]. He was upstairs. Katelyn Lough 07:24 Okay. I gotcha. So what was the curriculum or grading like at Simms School? Did any of you have any difficulty with it? Or did you help each other out? Billo Harper 07:39 No, it wasn't for me any issues... major issues. Because we had master teachers. Okay. All of them were Black and had been educated at schools like Howard University, Virginia Union, Fisk, Hampton. And they were all educated from HBCUs. And they were exceptional teachers. [Harper note: Correction, for some young people that had learning challenges, there were not special programs to address any learning disabilities. You were on your own most of the time and your family or community folks many times would help out in various ways as needed.] [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 7 �Katelyn Lough 08:19 Yeah. And those teachers were willing to help. They were very willing to help them. Billo Harper 08:23 Yeah. And then you had some students that were disruptive. And we had some teachers that would straight up just tell you, "Bend your knuckles and hold it out like this." And BOOM! That's right. There was no play. I mean, and this was third and fourth grade. So you knew he was getting a spanking in front of all your classmates.[Harper note: Many teachers had approaches that were unique to their teaching style. I did have a teacher in the fourth grade who would call you to her desk if you were disruptive and hit your knuckles. You may also go home with a note from your teacher, and get punished again.] Katelyn Lough 08:58 And is this Miss Awkard Fairfax that you're talking about? Billo Harper 09:02 No, no. I'm not gonna say the name of that teacher. Katelyn Lough 09:05 Oh, you're not going to say, okay. Billo Harper 09:06 No. [Harper note: I'm not gonna say the name of that fourth-grade teacher. However, any student who attended Lucy F. Simms school who experienced it will know the teacher.] Katelyn Lough 09:11 Of course, of course. Yes. Billo Harper 09:15 I'm not gonna put one of my favorite teacher's name out there and say, "Oh, she beat you on the knuckles,"' because she did a lot of other things, too.[Harper note: I learned the value of being rewarded for attention in the classroom, which was you could retain the valued lessons easily.] Katelyn Lough 09:22 Oh, of course. We understand. When we were talking with some of the fellow students of your classmates that used to go to the Simms School, they said that Miss Awkard was very well respected with the school. Billo Harper 09:39 And she was a pianist and she was the co-director of the Simms Mass Choir. You see her picture? When you see that picture, you see her standing over on the one side down on the bottom? [Harper note: Miss Awkard was also the theatre director of the Simms Theatre [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 8 �Productions called the Operetta’s which were performed each year by the middles school students, and all the parents would produce the costumes and the Operetta was a cultural production which enhanced the community value of Newtown.] Dylan Logan 09:48 Yeah. Billo Harper 09:49 And then she was a master pianist. [Harper note: She was a classroom-focused visionary of social learning for young students. All the teachers had ways of disciplining you if you got out of order. Not having cell phones and social media was truly an asset when I think about it now. These technologies bring value; however, they can be tremendous distractions in focused learning.] Katelyn Lough 10:12 So you just talked. Billo Harper 10:14 Oh, you gotta... It's talking. Yeah. Talking and acting up. Pushing your friend next to you. And yeah, smack him upside the head [laughs]. Stuff like that... Adolescent stuff. [Harper note: It was also interesting to have classmates who had clear learning challenges and not have other classes for them to attend. The teachers would have approaches such as having other students help facilitate the attention of the students if needed.] Katelyn Lough 10:29 Yes, of course. So, during your time there... When it came to lunchtime, what were the meals like? What was the community like? Did you... Who did you sit with? Where did you sit? Billo Harper 10:42 The food was good. The chef [Miss Washington] was a local resident of Newtown and was a master cook. The food was also locally grown from local farms. Although we had some manufactured food from some warehouse that the city of Harrisonburg School System, you know. And they were sending food by a truck. But many times, the chef who was in the kitchen, her and most of the time, it was a female, in my years. And Miss Washington was the chef. And I mean, the food was like you had it from your kitchen table at home. Katelyn Lough 11:24 Oh, that's amazing. So, what were your favorite parts of the school? What events did you participate in? What activities? Billo Harper 11:39 What I want to say about that is... Let me see here. I want to be sure I covered this... May Day! Katelyn Lough 11:56 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 9 �May Day, yes. Billo Harper 11:59 May Day was special. Basketball games that we played other schools. Because I was the basketball manager. And y'all seen the picture with me? Right? As the basketball manager?[Harper note: May Day was a special cultural and unique school special event. Musical performances, basketball, or football games that we played at home or other schools. I was the basketball manager at 10 years old for the Lucy F. Simms School Bulldogs varsity team.] Katelyn Lough 12:17 I believe so. Once or twice. Yes. Billo Harper 12:20 Y'all seen it? Yeah. Yeah, I was the basketball manager of Lucy F. Simms. Y'all not gonna have a problem picking me out, are you? [Harper note: It was one of the most unique experiences of my school education and life. Learning how to organize equipment, uniforms, and practice schedules has been rewarding to me throughout my life. It taught me the importance of planning and logistics.] Katelyn Lough 12:37 Oh my... [laughs] Billo Harper 12:41 Y'all can't pick me out. I'm 10 years old. Can you pick me out? Where am I? Katelyn Lough 12:47 You're far left on the top row. Yes, sir. Billo Harper 12:52 Hey, Logan. I was 10-years-old, man. Dylan Logan 12:56 Yeah. Billo Harper 12:57 So that's why I'm saying it's my playground. So when [the basketball team] would go around to Stanton, Winchester, Richmond, Lexington, Clifton Forge, Madison County, Orange County. I would [go with them]. My mother was working. So after school, the guys would get on the bus and little Billo... I would get on the bus. And I was 10 years old. I'd be carrying the balls and the uniforms. And I did that for like, probably four or five years. [Harper note: Since my mother was working, I was provided with a safe place out of the house to enjoy and learn team management.] [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 10 �Dylan Logan 13:35 Wow. Katelyn Lough 13:37 So that was what you did after school? Most of the time. Billo Harper 13:41 Yeah. And don't ask me when I got homework done [Katelyn laughs]. During basketball season, and I wasn't a particularly bright student, I mean, I'd struggle.[Harper note: I had to work hard. Having responsibility towards the team, allowed me to discover other ways of learning and how education works with hands-on activities.] Katelyn Lough 13:53 Okay. So how long did that season last? The basketball season? Was it in the fall? Billo Harper 14:00 Probably, you know, at least three or four months.[Harper note: including conference play.] Katelyn Lough 14:04 Okay. So, you mentioned May Day. Can you expand on that? What was it like? What was the start of the day and what was the end of the day? Billo Harper 14:18 You know, May Day was a fun day. And it was acknowledging that spring had arrived. Wrapping the flagpole in the front of the building with confetti paper was the official May Day ceremony. Concerts, food, and school activities made it fun for the whole day. And most of the time, I mean, you know, they had the May Day Queen and so that meant all the mothers and grandmothers and aunts would do dresses for all the girls... And I mean, you know, fellas, we didn't... It didn't mean nothing to us. But the girls would dress up. And then the fellas, it was just a fun day. And it was May Day. It was the first Friday of May. That was May Day. O9 Katelyn Lough 15:04 So to your knowledge did May Day.... Did that happen at every other school? Or was it just at Simms? Billo Harper 15:12 Just Simms, as far as we know. Oh! The other Black schools. But I don't know if it happened at the white schools. I really don't know. Katelyn Lough 15:22 So.. Billo Harper 15:23 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 11 �You have to understand. During Jim Crow and during Newtown (where the Blacks live). That's what Newtown meant, where the Blacks live. You have Newtown and other cities around America. So sometimes we didn't know what was going on over by JMU or where Harrisonburg High is now. We just knew Newtown. Downtown was the divider for our community. Katelyn Lough 16:08 So... Billo Harper 16:09 Sometimes we didn't go past Main Street. Katelyn Lough 16:14 Okay. And because it was... It felt... divided that way. Did it ever feel suffocating? Or with that community...? Billo Harper 16:27 No, no, no! You didn't feel it. Now, you understood Jim Crow. I mean, the reality of the Virginia Theater that was downtown. As Blacks, we had to sit up in the balcony. So we would go to the movie and just go up to the balcony and watch the movie. We didn't think about "Oh, wow, we want to sit downstairs." Because many times our friends, some of our white friends, that we would meet over the years, they would open the door and they would sneak in upstairs and watch the movie in the balcony with us. [Harper note: This is the institution of segregation.] Katelyn Lough 17:00 Oh okay. How often did you see movies with your friends? Billo Harper 17:07 Well, when a movie will come out, I mean, remember, and this is... It's horrible. All the movies that would come out would be like Tarzan and Jane. You know, we got tired of Tarzan. Like he's a white man that can control animals. I mean... Oh, that's horrible. That's a whole other conversation. Let's stick to the script. [Harper note: Most of the movies that come out didn’t have Black people in them at all. And watching the movies like Tarzan and Jane, was often the only option. We got tired of Tarzan. A white man that control animals in Africa. I mean...that was racist, horrible, and insulting.] Katelyn Lough 17:30 Okay, okay. So your friendships and relationships at Simms? Did you have a few really close friends? Or did you have a whole group of friends? Was it your whole family? Billo Harper 17:44 We had a lot of friends. Because you live together in a community. Katelyn Lough 18:11 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 12 �So can you recall your friendships or relationships that you made during your time at the Simms School? Billo Harper 18:20 Okay, me and my best friends... Because I had numerous best friends. We had wonderful and challenging experiences growing up Black during Jim Crow, with his functional, confrontational reality of that law and the way people's attitudes about it. But for us, we weren't walking around worried, oh, day in and day out about Jim Crow... Our adult parents may have been. The community was beautiful. We had gardens and I mean, we just loved the Northeast, we loved Newtown. I mean, Newtown... My mother [Doris Harper Allen]. She has a book coming out about Jim Crow. But once in her earlier book, "The Way It Was, Not the Way It Is," she says in her life, she came up in the '30s and '40s. And she says, "We were poor, but we didn't know it." And that was really interesting. And I use that and refer to that because you know, we can get all into what is poor. What is poverty? You know, depends on how you want to frame it. But in terms of our adolescent experience, Katelyn and Logan. We just lived and had a lot of fun and a lot of experiences as friends and we just, you know, we kind of kept it moving. And we love Newtown.[Harper note: Me and my best friends always walked from Northeast all the way to 81 and back. Fishing and swimming in the mountains were always an activity during spring, summer, and fall.] Katelyn Lough 19:58 Great, that's good to hear. So, what kind of things did you and your friends do after school? You mentioned the movies and you mentioned basketball. But other than that? Billo Harper 20:11 Many of us worked around the house because you always had chores. [Harper note: We would cut grass, build fences, some of us worked in our family businesses.] Katelyn Lough 20:15 Yeah. Billo Harper 20:16 And you got community jobs, you had gardens. And then I was one of the first Black paper route boys in Harrisonburg. I delivered the Daily News Record. Katelyn Lough 20:29 Oh, wow. Billo Harper 20:30 I had to get up at about 4:30 in the morning, and my mother would take me to Daily News Record. And then I would get my papers, and I'd deliver papers. [Harper note: I would deliver the papers in Black and some white communities.] Katelyn Lough 20:42 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 13 �So did you do this...? How long did you do this for? Throughout high school? Billo Harper 20:46 About four years. I think three or four. But then, that's a whole other story. In terms of being a paperboy, and then deciding that you don't feel like getting up. Then all of a sudden, you're thinking about girls and all of that. A whole lot of other stuff [laughs]. Sometimes, you know, you tired. You played basketball, football. So you don't want to get up.[Harper note: During the winter it was a challenge. The weather during the 60’s was four and five feet or more of show. No local TV. Only the news paper. And everyone wanted their newspaper. Then you had to go collect your money each month. Some people would make you come back another day to get your money.] Katelyn Lough 21:14 Of course. Billo Harper 21:15 Yeah. Katelyn Lough 21:17 So you said that you had this newspaper job. But did you have any other jobs growing up as a teenager in Newtown? Billo Harper 21:27 Yes, I had a job. I used to go door to door with Sears and Roebucks. And people would order it. And then they would get the products delivered to their house and then I'd make money. And then I had one of my friends be my assistant. [Harper note: My friend would get the orders and I would collect the money.] Katelyn Lough 21:39 Oh, okay. Billo Harper 21:43 I've been an entrepreneur all my life because of my family. I come from three generations of business owners. Dylan Logan 21:48 Wow. Billo Harper 21:50 Business, I've never known a time when my family didn't own and operate their own business. Katelyn Lough 21:56 So this is, you would say your passion? It's not... You didn't feel forced into business at all? [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 14 �Billo Harper 22:05 No, it's a lifestyle. Katelyn Lough 22:07 Yeah. Billo Harper 22:08 Business was my lifestyle. Yeah, my grandfather's, my grandmother's. Everybody owned and operated their own businesses in Newtown. And they were destroyed by urban renewal. That's a whole other conversation. Katelyn Lough 22:33 All right. So what were some of the activities in the community that were available to you? Billo Harper 22:42 In terms of activities, church. Church. What happens at the church was real significant. And in the summer, we would have... lawn parties. We had lawn parties, and you'd play games. And lawn parties, I would say [the hand-on experience was] similar to a circus. The craftsmen of the community would build all kinds of playing objects for games. And then also, we had back in the day, we had a group that came to Harrisonburg from Louisiana. And what was their name... They were called... I can't think of it. I'll think of their name before it's over, or I'll mail it to you. But they used to come from New New Orleans and they would set up a tent over by Washington Street. And they would have dancers and that was like a summer program that would come to the community and they would be there for like a week in the summer. Also, we used to have we used to have our own Black baseball team that would play every Sunday. And that was like a festival. Because, you know, they were playing baseball. So there were picnics. There were car shows because there was a lot mechanics always fixing cars. So they were showing off the cars on Sunday. And the baseball games were right there at Lucy F. Simms. Right there on the baseball field. [Harper note: Most summers, Silas Green a minstrel group of all-Black entertainers, with dancing, and beautiful costumes, came to Harrisonburg from New Orleans, Louisiana. They would set up a tent over by Washington Street in Kelley’s field.] Katelyn Lough 24:39 Wow. Billo Harper 24:40 It was always kind of like I say, we stayed among ourselves [in the Northeast of Harrisonburg at Simms.] Katelyn Lough 24:48 It sounds like you had a lot of fun. Billo Harper 24:50 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 15 �Yeah. And it was okay. I mean, there are certain challenges within a family that happen and you have to deal with it. Some of our parents went to war. And so different things happen. And it would test your family. So, you know, life is... Life is beautiful, but sometimes life isn't fair. [Harper note: War was a major change for the community and family members that had to go to war. My father, uncles, and a first aunt from the community went into the military. It would test the families.] Katelyn Lough 25:11 Of course. So as we get to kind of the closing of the interview, are there any other stories or memories that you would like to share? Billo Harper 25:24 Did you finish your questions about why we moved? There was a question. Katelyn Lough 25:36 There was, but I want to respect your time, sir. Billo Harper 25:39 So we can finish your questions. What's the other question? Katelyn Lough 25:48 So, I was going to ask. When did you move away from Harrisonburg and why did you move? Billo Harper 25:56 I moved in 1970. And we moved to Huntington, West Virginia. And my mother got married. She remarried. Her second marriage. But she wanted to get us out of Newtown. She wanted to get us somewhere that was more progressive. Because she felt that there were communities happening somewhere else. And in Huntington, West Virginia. They were very progressive. They had all kinds of really unique, innovative community businesses and housing developments, and she wanted us to be around this. So when my brother got there, he was 18. He had graduated from Harrisonburg High. He got a job driving a van for this church selling fish sandwiches. Yeah, so she wanted to get us in a more progressive life. So this was 1970. Katelyn Lough 26:50 Okay, and if you could give any advice to your high school self, what would it be? Billo Harper 26:58 Did we miss one of the other questions? Katelyn Lough 27:01 I don't believe so. Billo Harper 27:03 [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 16 �Okay. All right. If you could give advice to your high school self? Why did you move? Okay, I answered that... To my high school self... Wow, you got me on that one. You know, I saw that one earlier. Katelyn Lough 27:23 Take your time. Billo Harper 27:24 Yes, Logan, Katelyn. Let me tell you. I thought about this earlier, I would say to myself... If I could have asked Mr. Hedgley if I can sweep his floor after class, and carry his bags to the car every day. That would have been just phenomenal for me to say that, Mr. Hedgley’s [classroom]... That I swept the floor of Mr. Hedgley for three or four months. And then I'd take his books to his car. And now he's known as the father of computer graphics that we use every day. That would... That's what I would have told myself. Katelyn Lough 28:28 That's great. Billo Harper 28:29 And I was disciplined [at an early age]. Because of my mother... My mother and father and grandmother and grandfather, all of them... They had their own businesses. They didn't tolerate anything but respect and discipline. So, I came up in that world [laughs]. Oh, and also I love being around geniuses. Dr. Hedgley was a genius. And he still is today. Katelyn Lough 28:55 Of course, of course. Billo Harper 28:57 And he still is at 86. Katelyn Lough 29:00 If you could give advice to high schoolers now, like Logan and I, what would it be? Billo Harper 29:07 Be open to learning from your teachers who care about you. Katelyn Lough 29:13 Yes, sir. Billo Harper 29:14 However, be serious about completion of assignments before they are due. Katelyn Lough 29:21 Yes, sir. [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 17 �Billo Harper 29:22 Don't be waiting. Hey, don't be waiting on the due date. Finish it. Have it ready. That's what I would recommend. Katelyn Lough 29:33 That's great advice for us. Thank you so much. Billo Harper 29:36 Hey, you're most welcome. Katelyn Lough 29:52 I live in Dayton. Billo Harper 29:53 I love Dayton. In 1970, the summer of 1970, I was a junior at Harrisburg High. I worked as a research assistant at Bridgewater College for the Department of Psychology. Katelyn Lough 30:14 Wow. Dylan Logan 30:15 Wow. Billo Harper 30:16 I got--Hey! I got $750 for the summer for working two months. And I did research on the hooded rat. And I was the only one in the lab. And I would give them these little pills. And when we meet and have lunch, I'll tell you more about it. But I would give them these little pills and it was... The research project was studying non-prescription and prescription drugs. And I did these on a hooded rat for two and a half months. From June and July. And in August, I was on a U-haul, going to Huntington, West Virginia. [Harper note: I was looking for a new life.] Katelyn Lough 31:05 Wow. Billo Harper 31:06 All right, y'all take care? Katelyn Lough 31:08 Well, before you go, I'd like to say thank you so much for meeting with us. And I wanted to reiterate what Mr. Van Schaick said before. James Madison University will transcribe our audio and then send it to you so you can get final approval. And then also, they will send you a consent form which you'll sign and send back to us. And once we get your final approval, it'll be [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 18 �up on the Simms website, and you'll be a real part of history that people can listen to, can go on that website and learn more about you and your story. So thank you so much. Billo Harper 31:47 The other thing that I want to be critical of in the consent form have them put my statement about the video piece, of course. Katelyn Lough 31:55 And we will make sure to add that. Billo Harper 32:01 And I didn't tell you, you know other things that I used to do. I used to... I used to ride and take care of horses. Dylan Logan 32:08 Wow. Katelyn Lough 32:09 Wow. Billo Harper 32:10 Yeah. Yeah, I was. I was a groomer for horses. But anyway. I got to head out. And it was really nice meeting you. Katelyn Lough 32:19 It was nice meeting you too. Billo Harper 32:20 Yes. Oh, where's Tim at? Is Tim still sitting by you? Katelyn Lough 32:24 He is not in the room with us right now. Would you like me to call for him? Or do you need to leave right now? Billo Harper 32:30 I need to leave but I just want to thank him. Katelyn Lough 32:33 Of course we can pass on the message. Billo Harper 32:35 Okay. And then where's Jennifer? [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 19 �Katelyn Lough 32:38 She's also... She's in the building but not in the room. Billo Harper 32:41 Tell Jennifer, thank you very much. And y'all were exceptional. Katelyn Lough 32:45 Thank you so much. And what is your plan after school and high school? So I want I'm going to Bridgewater College. It's supposed to be a secret right now. But I figured I'd share that with you. I'm going to Bridgewater College. Billo Harper 32:58 Awww! Congratulations. I want to introduce you to my wife, Dr. Harper, who has a new program in the city and she's looking for young leaders like you and Logan. Katelyn Lough 33:09 Oh, wow. That'd be amazing. Dylan Logan 33:11 Yeah. Billo Harper 33:11 She has a program now nonprofit program in downtown Harrisonburg. You can both Google: "Faces 4Change." Dylan Logan 33:20 I think I might have heard of that before, actually. Billo Harper 33:22 Yeah. Katelyn Lough 33:35 Thank you so much for letting us know. Billo Harper 33:39 Alright. Hey, listen, y'all take care now. Katelyn Lough 33:42 You too Mr. Harper. Dylan Logan 33:44 Have a nice day. [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 20 �Billo Harper 33:46 Bye. Katelyn Lough 33:46 Bye bye. [Billo Harper – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 21 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Billo Harper (Annotated) https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/simms/files/original/Simms School Oral Histories/Interview_with_Howard_Curry.pdf b8b097d81935b5148d8081ece6cce165 PDF Text Text Interview with Howard W. Curry Lucy F. Simms School Oral History Project Interview status: Open to the Public Name of interviewee: Howard Curry Name of interviewers: Leah Hedrick, Ali Sheikh Date of interview: Feb 28, 2023 Duration of interview: 01:07:18 Place of interview: Lucy F. Simms Continuing Education Center Language of interview: English Interview with Howard W. Curry Leah Hedrick 00:00 Alright. So, today is February 28th. I am Leah Hedrick, here with Ali Sheikh and we will be doing the interview today with Mr. Howard Curry. Mr. Curry, you understand that this interview is being recorded, and you consent to being recorded for this interview? Howard Curry 00:14 Yes. I consent. Leah Hedrick 00:15 Awesome! Let's get started. So my first question is, what age did you start attending the Simms School? Like, what were your first memories of attending? Howard Curry 00:25 Okay. When I started school, it was [grade] one through twelfth. They didn't have kindergarten at the time. So I went from one through twelve, the whole time spent in this school. I think I started in 1949, and probably I finished in 1961. So I guess when I was in school, during the time, it sort of seemed like it was a long process. But looking back on my life, it was just twelve years, off summers, and I just enjoyed the curriculum and everything involving school. I wasn't an outstanding student, but I enjoyed especially the other students, and also teachers. Leah Hedrick 01:38 All right. Could you tell me a little bit more about your most treasured memories at the Simms School? Like what really stood out to you when you were here? Howard Curry 01:47 [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 1 �Any particular thing that? Leah Hedrick 01:49 Anything. Anything that was your most favorite. Howard Curry 01:53 Well, I like sports. I guess it's a guy thing but I really enjoyed sports. By being small numbers, you were able to participate in anything you wanted to. You didn't have to worry about whether you made the team or- Because we just small numbers. I enjoyed some of the plays but I just like to hope you know the whole camaraderie just being around other students. Ali Sheikh 02:34 Well, did you excel at any certain sports, or what was your go-to sport? Howard Curry 02:40 I loved football. Ali Sheikh 02:41 Football? Howard Curry 02:42 Yeah. I really love football. And soAli Sheikh 02:51 Offensive guy or a defensive guy? Leah Hedrick 02:53 This is all just [unclear]. Howard Curry 02:55 Both. Offense and defense. Like I said, we were small as far as numbers. So you didn't have to worry about getting playing time. Ali Sheikh 03:04 You'd play both sides? Howard Curry 03:05 Yeah. So, I mean, I wasn't a quarterback, but if somebody went down, you know. But my favorite side of the ball was defense. I'd rather be hit. I'd rather hit somebody than them get a free shot on me. Ali Sheikh 03:27 Pads? Everything? [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 2 �Howard Curry 03:29 Yeah. When we started football in the school, it wasn't always football. We had a teacher that came from North Carolina who went to a school called North Carolina A&T. And he was a football player, and he couldn't believe that the school didn't have football, so he decided to create a team. Well, we had no equipment. So our equipment was used equipment from Harrisonburg High. Leah Hedrick 04:02 How old were you when you joined the football team? Like, what grade were you in? Howard Curry 04:07 Probably fifteen, sixteen. I might have played five years. I mean, I'm not sure because there was a lot of restrictions. But I remember we had a guy, that he was pretty large-sized guy. But he was in one of the lower grades, but he was pretty big. So we said, "Hey, you can play with us." And he played an offensive lineman because of his size. Ali Sheikh 04:40 So, like did anybody go from here to college sports or anything? Did coaches come from colleges to come watch y'all play, or...? Howard Curry 04:52 When I was a youngster, Harrisonburg was small. Now you think of JMU and all? Leah Hedrick 04:57 Yeah. Howard Curry 04:58 No, it was small. Population, I think, was probably around 12,000 to 13,000. I mean, it was small. And so we had kids that came from the surrounding communities, which helped increase the numbers of students attending here. But yeah, it was small. So this is where I went to school. So out here is where we played football, baseball, and we ran track. We did a little bit of everything. But all that was farmland back then. Leah Hedrick 05:33 Yeah. Howard Curry 05:35 I mean, it's hard to imagine, but it was all farmland. And sometimes, I wonder, "Man, was things that small? That they were?" This [section of the school], right directly behind, they put an addition on in later years, which is the boys club and some activities that they have here. But when I was going to school, it was just a small piece of land that was part of the school campus. So I also-. During the time I went to school, the community got together and built a swimming pool. It's been since replaced, but I can remember really loving to swim. And we had our [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 3 �lifeguard was a student at Hampton Institute, which is Hampton University now. He was an outstanding swimmer. So he became our lifeguard, and he taught a lot of kids how to swim. So I became a pretty good swimmer. And a lot of times, people would be amazed because we didn't have access to pools or a lot of facilities that as Afro-American that I could actually swim or some of my buddies could swim. And they were like, "How can you guys swim?" Because we just didn't have access to swimming facilities. You went to a river or somewhere. Leah Hedrick 07:15 Right. Howard Curry 07:16 Some farmer's pond, or- [laughs]. Leah Hedrick 07:19 Did you find it difficult to balance your academics with all the extracurricular activities you did? Since you were so involved with sports? Howard Curry 07:27 No, it just seemed like normal. I mean, to do this, to do that. If you were passionate aboutPassionate enough about anything, you know, it didn't seem like a chore. Leah Hedrick 07:40 Yeah. Howard Curry 07:40 Just something that you enjoy doing. Leah Hedrick 07:44 Okay. Can you describe the relationship between you and your classmates? Since you said you had graduated with sixteen students they took? Last time? Howard Curry 07:54 Yeah, and actually, that was considered a large class here at Simms. So, it was 9 boys. Nine boys- and did I say 16 or 18? Eighteen, I think, was the number that finished school. But we had a lot of kids that actually dropped out. Leah Hedrick 08:19 Really? Howard Curry 08:20 Oh yeah, you know. Back in that era, education was really- Nobody like today, 'Where you going to college?' 'Oh, I'm going to Christopher Newport. I'm going to do this,' [everyone laughs]. Your parents did the best they could. So education wasn't high on the priority list of things to do. I can [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 4 �remember visiting colleges, just participating in, like- They might have a science competition or English, or you know. So, other than that, I never really was exposed to a college atmosphere. Leah Hedrick 09:08 Were you close with any of the students that had dropped out when you were in? Howard Curry 09:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of the guys, we were real good friends. You hated to see it. But I guess whatever other circumstances they were going through just didn't require that much education. But yeah, I had a couple of buddies. One guy in particular, we grew up together. But that came to a part. You get to a part in your life where you start kind of separating. You might have a buddy in the first, second grade, but by the time you're in the fifth, he's no longer your best buddy. And then. ButAli Sheikh 09:59 Yeah. Howard Curry 10:01 But yeah, I had one guy; I wish he would have- I think he would have excelled in anything. Even if he- If he would have had a chance to go to college, I think he would have excelled in something. Leah Hedrick 10:19 Could you tell me how it felt being surrounded by all grade levels in school? Since you said it wasHoward Curry 10:25 Yeah. [both speaking] First through, yeah. Leah Hedrick 10:27 [both speaking] One through 12. Howard Curry 10:30 I guess it didn't seem odd because at one point, you was in a lower level, and you kind of looked up at older guys. "Oh. I want that," or "I'd like to dress like that," or "That guy's pretty cool, the way he carries himself". So I didn't find it odd. Because actually, a lot of private schools, man, they're one through twelve. Ali Sheikh 10:56 Yeah. Howard Curry 10:57 A lot of private high schools, especially military schools. [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 5 �Ali Sheikh 11:03 Were you like a big- Did you feel like a big brother? You had to hold yourself accountable to certain things when you were in the older grades to the little guys? Howard Curry 11:13 I had cousins and relatives. So sometimes, as a youngster, you want to tell on somebody if they were out of line. So sometimes you had to be- watch yourself around a youngster because he may go home and tell your uncle or your mom. "Howard did something in school today that I believe you need to know." [Everyone laughs]. Leah Hedrick 11:46 That's funny. Having little siblings. It's just different for us to hear because when we transition from like fifth to sixth grade, it's a lot different when you are with all the older students. Wouldn't you say? Ali Sheikh 12:00 Yeah, I mean, you go 1 to fifth, and then- You always stay around your age group. You don't really [both speaking] see those younger than you. Howard Curry 12:06 [both speaking] Right. Exactly. Ali Sheikh 12:07 Trying to understand it, you know. Howard Curry 12:09 So, you kind of- By being around students and older students. They kind of seem like they set a pattern or something that you want to, like, you know, if you got an older brother, you're like- You might not like everything he does, but there is some things where you're like, 'Man, I'll be glad when I reach that particular age, so I can be like my big bro.' Ali Sheikh 12:37 Yeah. Leah Hedrick 12:38 How they set the line for maturity, yeah, I definitely would say. Okay. So how would you describe the teachers at Simms? Like were there certain teachers that impacted you more when you were here? Howard Curry 12:52 I thought, on the whole- I thought the teachers- I thought they were very good teachers. They seem to really want to teach and maybe they can see the fruits of their labor. I liked Miss Fairfax. She was my first-grade teacher. But I'm saying- But it was- But the coach. I don't know, [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 6 �guys always pick out coaches or something, soccer coach, football coach... "Oh! Coach so-and-so did this!" [laughs]. So yeah, I liked the coaches. Ali Sheikh 13:31 Were the coaches teachers as well? Or-? Howard Curry 13:33 Yeah, they taught as well. Leah Hedrick 13:35 So you had that connection with them? Howard Curry 13:37 Yeah. We had a coach. Some guys didn't like him, but I kind of, I really, I thought the guy was cool. I might be 15 or 16. So he might be 22 or 23. Not that it was really that much removed. But you know, he's wearing certain ties or jackets. I always liked clothes. So, these guys out of college, they was wearing clothes and had a car. And so- And when we would travel to sporting events at another school, sometimes we would take a bus, but sometimes we would be driven by the coach. And maybe he had 2 buddies that had a vehicle; they would also provide us with transportation. Leah Hedrick 14:32 So, you mentioned in January that your basketball team could only play certain schools, which is what we were talking about. Could you go into a little more depth about that? Howard Curry 14:44 Well, when I said certain schools, we only played certain schools. We didn't travel down to the Tidewater areaLeah Hedrick 14:53 Right. Howard Curry 14:53 Or up to the DC area. So we played most of the schools that were located here. And remember, I'm talking about during the segregated era. Leah Hedrick 15:03 Right. Howard Curry 15:03 So we didn't play Harrisonburg [High]. We didn't play TA [Turner Ashby High School]. We wouldn't have wanted to anyway [laughs]. I mean, they probably had 40 or 50 guys out there. We come out with 14 or 15. But I enjoyed wherever we went. Oh, man. I'd love to go to another school, to interact with other students. A lot of times after the- It wasn't just a sporting event; it [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 7 �was kind of social get-together. So, and therefore you got to meet other students. And then, after the game, they would have what we called a social, which was a dance where we would mingle with the students, dance with them. Dancing, I don't know. Is that still a big thing? Ali Sheikh 15:54 Dance? Leah Hedrick 15:55 We have like, prom. Howard Curry 15:58 Oh, man. We loved to dance. And then you maybe go to a school, and they got an outstanding guy that could maybe dance real well, so you almost a little competitive thing. This guy can make a certain move. Because guys and girls didn't dance together, you didn't see no girls and guys- It was a guy and a girl. It wouldn't be like- Sometimes you see more girls dancing together than you see- But back then, I really liked what we called, referred to them as a socials. We'd just meet after the game. They would allow us time to stay maybe an hour or hour and a half after the game to mingle with other students. And so. Leah Hedrick 16:52 Were there any activities you liked to do outside of school other than basketball? Howard Curry 16:57 Out of school? You know, it's kind of funny because the school was kind of the center place of everything. Churches. Schools. There wasn't that many places that you really could mingle. Because- You have a car, right? Leah Hedrick 17:19 I do. Howard Curry 17:19 Ali has a car. Ali Sheikh 17:20 Yeah. Howard Curry 17:21 Well, back then -Your whole family, there might not be a car in the whole family. SoLeah Hedrick 17:28 Right. Howard Curry 17:29 [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 8 �So a lot of- you was limited to how far you could go. I remember as a youngster, a big thing in my life was when I got a bicycle. Oh, man. And sometimes, I might have a bike, and maybe a buddy of mine didn't have one. So if we go somewhere, we'd ride double [laughter]. And sometimes we would call a shift going on rides. Like if you had a girlfriend or are seeing a young lady that you kind of liked, you'd say, "Hey, how about going on a ride with me on a bicycle." [Everyone laughs]. So anyway, yeah. I enjoyed different things. But I went to work at an early age. Not coming from a family that was wealthy. You had to- You learned early that some things you had to do to help your family provide for them as well as you. So I worked at an early age, but I enjoyed that too. I got to meet some real good folks. Leah Hedrick 18:56 What did you do? Like where did you work? Howard Curry 19:00 I did kind of what you call odd jobs raking leaves or mowing lawns. But I worked at a cleaners. That was my first big-time job, working at a cleaners. This gentleman hired me. He didn't have to hire me because I was Afro-American. But he saw some reason that he hired me. And I- all my life, I remembered that guy because he gave me a job and gave me the freedom to feel like I was somebody. And I told him- I said, "Well, you know, I like sports." He said, "Well, we'll work around that." So he allowed me, like if I was going away on a trip or something, to let my hours be flexible. When I was a youngster, everybody pretty much worked. Youngsters, you know. It wasn't like, "Oh,you got to hit your books," or "You got to do this." You had to fit everything in whatever was. It was work, school, church, or whatever. Leah Hedrick 20:29 So, can you describe how your school was like a community? Like, I know you touched a little bit on how you'd have socials after the basketball games, and it was like a community center. But could you touch a little more on that? Howard Curry 20:44 After activities- social activities after the game itself? Leah Hedrick 20:50 More how it was- How your school was like a community? Howard Curry 20:55 Well, as I say, we were a small community. And we pretty much lived in a short radius of each other. It wasn't like, I lived out on- We all kind of- So we was all- It was like a family. It was a family structure. Community. You may not be family or blood with somebody, but you were still like family. And people, they tried to help you along. Even though- I had a friend and his mom, she was an outstanding woman. And sometimes, she would allow me to come to eat supper. Man, I thought that was the greatest thing. And she was a good cook. And they would sit down as a family. Because my father passed when I was 6 years old, so I never had a father per se. [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 9 �But I had a mother, a great mother, but she worked quite a bit to provide for her family. So I guess I missed out on some things, but in other ways, it made me a stronger individual in life. Leah Hedrick 22:16 Did you have any other siblings with you? Howard Curry 22:23 I had older siblings because my mom was married twice. And then, later in life, she remarried. And I have a sister, which is- She's a year younger than I am. She'd be interesting for you guys should to talk to. She probably had more to say than I do, actually. But my other sisters and brother, they were older than I. Like I just had a sister that passed. She was 100. Leah Hedrick 23:06 Wow. Ali Sheikh 23:07 100? Howard Curry 23:08 She was 100. So, I'm at 80. So she was 20 years older than I was when I was born. But she lived in New York City. Brooklyn, actually. And I was able to in the summertime sometimes able to go to New York. So that was an experience in itself. Leah Hedrick 23:30 Could you tell me a little bit more about that? When you were in New York? Howard Curry 23:33 Well, when I'd go to New York, it was during when baseball was big. And I really liked baseball. And it was during the era when Jackie Robinson integrated Major League Baseball. So in New York at that time, you had the New York Giants, you had the New York Yankees, and you had the Brooklyn Dodgers. I know you guys, you know, that won't mean a lot to you. But I mean, they had all these great ballplayers during that era. And that was back when baseball was a thing. Football was still a college game. It wasn't- And there was no such thing as soccer or- You know, there were only basically three sports that really stood out. And baseball was -That's why they call it major league because, I mean, it was big time. So I was able to see Willie Mays. If you might say something to your grandparents, you can say, "Mr. Curry said he saw Willie Mays and Jackie Robinson and Pee Wee Reese. The guy that played for- Mantle, Mickey Mantle." So older folks, you know, like, when you guys get 80, you gonna say, 'Oh, when I went to school...' And the kids are gonna be like, you know, [sighs]. But anyway, it was a big deal to me. Leah Hedrick 25:11 That's good to hear. So did your siblings, like your stepsister, attend the Simms School as well? Howard Curry 25:16 [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 10 �Yeah, I had an older sister. And now, she was older than I was. So yeah, she, she would kind of look out for me. You know, like, if I lost my lunch money, "Okay, here's 15 or 10 cents," or whatever. So that's- I really enjoyed having somebody that I could go to. Like, if I wanted to Main Street or something. I remember one time, we were on Main Street in downtown, and I supposedly got lost. How you get lost? But you know, when you're a young kid. And I wasSomebody found me and took me to my mother. But overall, I'd say my experience, I wouldn't trade it in. Somebody said, "Would you like to be some movie star?" Nah. I enjoyed my growing years, going to school here, and the friends I've met along the way. Leah Hedrick 26:31 It's really impactful to hear. Let's see. What were your thoughts when you found out the Simms School was going to be integrated? Howard Curry 26:42 Okay. Yeah. You have to understand, as an Afro-American, we come out of slavery, you know, no words. And so you always wanted- you always were taught that there's better days ahead, and things are going to change. So, when integration came, they were supposed to better days. Now you get opportunity to go to TA [Turner Ashby High School] if you live in that area, or Spotswood, or you know. So I- When the school started segregating, I mean, integrating, I was already out of school. I was already out of school, so I didn't go through that transition period where I left Simms and went to another school. But I know hearing younger kids, how they say they- Some said they had problems. Some said they didn't have any problems or just small problems. There was a guy that lived in Harrisonburg. His name was Howard Stevens. He went to- And see, at first, they didn't just close the schools down. Brown versus the Board of Education allowed, supposedly allowed, everything to just all of a sudden, but it wasn't in a way. So in Harrisonburg, you had to actually petition to go to school. They didn't just say, "Ali, today you're going to-" You had to, they had to petition themselves. Like they had to send documents 'I request that I go to Harrisonburg, and the law of the land now says that I can.' But Howard Stevens was a pretty bright guy. So he could excel at anything he wanted because he was pretty bright. But he was a good football player. And so he went to Harrisonburg High, and he probably broke every record over there. Just a little guy. So then, after he finished Harrisonburg, he wasn't really recruited because he was a small guy. So he went to Randolph-Macon College. He broke every record over there. Leah Hedrick 29:15 Wow. Howard Curry 29:16 So he had a coach that was leaving Randolph Macon to go to University of Louisville. So he said, "Howard, you don't need to stay over here. Come with me to Louisville." He went down and broke every record at Louisville. So his- Some of his records may actually stand. But he was drafted into national football. Leah Hedrick 29:40 [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 11 �Wow. Ali Sheikh 29:42 You know what team he played for? Howard Curry 29:43 The team he first played for was the New Orleans Saints. And then he was traded to the Baltimore Colts, which are the Indianapolis Colts now. But at one time they were Baltimore. So he played in the pro league probably about eight years. Long enough for him to be able to qualify for a retirement. So, but I think it might be Harrisonburg's claim- first claim to fame as far as when students started mixing. Ralph Sampson was to come later, but Howard was the first outstanding student. He told me one day he was at a college, and some guys, some coach saw him and said, "Hey man, you ever played soccer?" He says, "Hey, man. I ain't a soccer player." [Laughs].He said- But you know, he was built and looked like a guy called Pelé. Ali Sheikh 30:44 Pe- Oh! The soccer player? Howard Curry 30:47 Yeah. Imagine his stature, you know what I'm saying? The calves and shortAli Sheikh 30:55 Oh, yeah. Howard Curry 30:55 But could turn on a dime. Ali Sheikh 30:59 Okay. Leah Hedrick 30:59 Are you still in contact with him? Howard Curry 31:04 Very little. If we see each other, you know, "Hey bro!" But he lives in North Carolina. He became a good golfer and so North Carolina, I guess, seemed like an ideal place to play golf, especially in your later years. Leah Hedrick 31:29 So, this is kind of a turning point where we were. So you mentioned a particular poem the last time we met -from Edgar Allan Poe. I took note of it. I was wondering, what are your favorite poems by him? Howard Curry 31:43 [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 12 �Oh, when you're going to school, certain things you're exposed to, but I just remember "The Pit and the Pendulum," "The Raven," a certain- And then they start coming out with these movies. They were like, it turned him into kind of scary movies. But what they were based on Edgar Allan Poe's writings. But it's a lot of poets that- I can't recite everything, but I enjoy, like Angela, Angela... I can't remember her last name. But these were outstanding poets. And some of them never really got their dues. But they would just- I always liked the arts. There you go. I liked doing the Broadway plays especially. My mother exposed me to that. And so, paintings or drawings, even though I never was good at anything, but I always enjoyed other people's works. Leah Hedrick 33:03 Did you have any favorite pieces of art that you can recall or any favorite plays? I'm a big play person too. I like art as well. Howard Curry 33:11 Well, I particularly like Afro-American art. But I wasn't exposed to it until later in life. But I have some things in my house that I bought through the years. I really like music, particularly jazz. Leah Hedrick 33:15 Me, too. Howard Curry 33:19 So, my dream was to be raised in Harlem in the '50s, '40s, and '50s. There just seemed to be an overly abundant people that were good at arts, but they never really got their dues. But later in life, somebody might pass, and then people start to enjoy their works. So, my daughter occasionally will send me a book written during that era or reflecting onto that era. So I really, I was a collector of jazz recordings. I probably got, I don't know, I mean. And they were vinyl. But now vinyl is coming back. Leah Hedrick 34:35 I know. Everything is coming back. Howard Curry 34:37 I mean, we had guys throwing them away and, you know, just- But some of them, quite a few of them, I got. So, I got some of the original recordings, and now they might be worth a little something. Leah Hedrick 34:55 Do you have a favorite jazz artist? Howard Curry 34:57 Well, my favorite was Miles Davis. I mean, I can go down the list of people that I enjoy listening to, but it was something about his particular music that I really enjoyed. There's a guy named Quincy Jones. I mean, he excelled in every era. I mean, he did a lot of Michael Jackson tunes when Michael Jackson was great. He did a lot of Michael Jackson tunes or recordings. He [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 13 �produced them. A lot of music he wrote himself. But I really love music. I can sit and just, and I can play something that I've listened to back in the '60s and I'm like, 'Hey, I didn't pick up on that particular thing.' And so it's like oh, man. You know, it just kind of brings joy to your heart. Leah Hedrick 36:02 Have you always loved music? Like, even when you were younger? Howard Curry 36:05 Oh yeah. And there you go. By going to school here, I didn't have opportunities to learn an instrument. Now, there were people that taught music, like they might teach piano. But we didn't have a band, or we didn't have a jazz band or a marching band or- But I always enjoyed music. Leah Hedrick 36:34 It's really impactful. SoHoward Curry 36:37 [Remembers] Maya Angelou! Leah Hedrick 36:39 Maya Angelou? Howard Curry 36:40 Yeah. Look up her stuff sometime. Leah Hedrick 36:44 I definitely will. My personal favorite is probably Ella Fitzgerald. Howard Curry 36:50 Oh, yeah! Leah Hedrick 36:52 'Summertime' is probably one of my favorite [both speaking-unclear] Howard Curry 36:53 [Recites 'Summertime' by Ella Fitzgerald] "Living is easy. Fish are jumping, and the cotton is high." Leah Hedrick 36:57 I know. My dad got me into jazz. Howard Curry 37:00 Oh, man. You know, sometimes- I have three DVD players. [Bose]. They probably they don't make them no more. But I have one in my bedroom, one in my little den or little cubby, [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 14 �and one- And I just go down, and I'm like, "What do I want to listen to today? Okay. Ella Fitzgerald." And I'll just keep repeating not the same song but the album, so it takes about- maybe the album is maybe an hour, a little over an hour, so for about three or four hours. And I don't know which track is going to come up next. Ella Fitzgerald. You know she's from Virginia originally? Leah Hedrick 37:50 Is she really? Howard Curry 37:51 Yeah. She was from the Tidewater area. But she moved to New York. And she was a good dancer. So she would enter these dance contests. But they found out that she could sing. And the rest is history. Oh, I love Ella. Leah Hedrick 38:12 Yeah, her music. My dad is a huge fan of jazz. So heHoward Curry 38:15 Oh yeah? Who's your Dad? Man, I'm going to the Forbes Center Monday evening, my wife and I. And they're going to have a group from the Lincoln Center in New York City, a jazz group. So we're going out there to listen to them. Leah Hedrick 38:36 Yeah, I wish more places just played jazz music. To me, it's so soothing, like in restaurants. I could listen to it for hours. So, what were some of your favorite memories from being in the Air Force? Howard Curry 38:51 Oh, man. When I first went in and my first duty assignment, I was stationed on an Air Force Base and seeing all these airplanes taking off, landing, able to- At one time, I was a crew member on a transport plane. It was called a C-130. And I think it originally came out in probably the '50s. And they're still flying. Right? In today's world, they're still flying. And I just was amazed at these airplanes, and I just love to fly. I mean, I can't actually fly the plane. But, I was introduced to what makes it- what lifts a plane, how you maneuver it, and stuff like that. So, it was like [exhales]. You know, put in a situation introducing something, and you just amazed at. How did these things fly? How do- Who are these guys that are actually flying? And then there are some guys that became excellent pilots right from in this area. But I live- I just- If I see a plane flying over me, my attention is drawn towards it. It was- Just amazes me that- So, the guys that I met, the places I was able to go to. It just, it was a good time in my life. Eighteen years old and in California for the first time. From little Bridgewater, Mount Dayton [laughs], you know what I'm saying. Ali Sheikh 41:04 Were you excited? Nervous? [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 15 �Howard Curry 41:07 Oh. Just, you know, kind of nervous. At a young age, you think, you know everything, but you know what I'm saying... Ali Sheikh 41:15 Yeah yeah. Howard Curry 41:16 A lot of guys think- But there's so many things that just out here in life that you get exposed to, and some things you become very passionate, you know, you become just soAli Sheikh 41:31 Yeah. Howard Curry 41:33 But all I can say is, live your life and live it. There's nothing out here that's dumbs, you know. You can always have a friend that's "Alright, man, that's dumb," you know, because they can't make that connection but- So, I never would have believed as -I was a third grader here in this room. And now, all these years later, I'm sitting here being interviewed by 16, 17-year-old kids. Ali Sheikh 42:10 Eighteen. Leah Hedrick 42:10 Seventeen. Howard Curry 42:11 Okay. [laughing] So see, when you young, "Oh, 16. Oh, no, 17. 17 and a half." No, you know. When you get older, you're like, "Uhh, I'm 70." "No, you're not 75. You're-" "Oh, okay." Ali Sheikh 42:11 Yeah. Howard Curry 42:29 Yeah. So where are you going to school? Ali Sheikh 42:33 Right now. I'm probably going to JMU. I haven't committed there yet, but... Howard Curry 42:36 Well, wherever you go, I mean, all these schools- Now, that's one thing I kind of I wish I would have done. Gone to college. I don't care if I would have flunked out. Or whatever. I would've [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 16 �liked to had that experience. So one thing I missed out on was going to college. But I'd still go [unclear]. Yeah, I mean, there's no reason- I mean you could go back today. 'Who is that old guy?! Is he a student? I thought you were a retired professor?' [Everybody laughs]. Ali Sheikh 43:24 It's about the dream. I mean, you got one dream left. Might as well just do it. Howard Curry 43:27 There you go. Leah Hedrick 43:31 So, we were just talking about when you were drafted in California. How were some of those moments? Like, how did they impact your life? Looking back? Howard Curry 43:39 Some of them what? Leah Hedrick 43:40 How are some of the memorable moments you made when you were drafted in California? Like, how did those impact your life? Howard Curry 43:47 Well, first of all, I wasn't drafted. I volunteered. Leah Hedrick 43:52 Did you really? Howard Curry 43:53 Yeah. I never even signed up for- Back during that era, each male had to sign up when he became 18. I never signed up because I went right in. But most of the guys that I know were drafted. I guess they said, "Who volunteers for the military." But I don't know. Some of the older guys that had gone to school here, they would come back with their uniforms on. All the kids that would go to school here, wherever they went, when they would come back to Harrisonburg, they would always come to Simms. And I did the same thing. The first time I came back to Harrisonburg, I came to the school. And one of the teachers said, "Curry, you a worldly person. Come and sit down and talk to my boys." And they'd want you to- They'd always used to say 'the boys,' ' them knuckleheads.' I want you to talk to them. I'm 19 and 20. Like I know so much now. But anyway, but I can just remember guys would come back. And back in the '50s and '60s, there wasn't a lot of opportunities for Afro-Americans. You know what I'm saying? I know you don't know what. But I'm saying there weren't that many opportunities. It just wasn't. If I wanted- I knew a guy that he became a banker. I'm like, 'How did he become a banker?' Or guys that would- I got a friend, and he reflects on his memories. He was working for a local factory. But he could only be a custodian. So when they, I guess the owner said, "I'm gonna give you an opportunity to be to be something beyond [unclear]." And he says, "But you got to [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 17 �succeed because I'm taking an awful chance." And my friend said, "I had just as much education as some of the guys. And he's talking about, 'I'm taking an awful chance,'" I mean. But, yeah. I know what I'm saying sounds kind of colorful. But when you're- If somebody tells you that you can't do something because you got long hair or your pigmentation is darker or, you know what I'm saying? Ali Sheikh 43:53 Yeah. Yeah. Leah Hedrick 49:05 Right. Howard Curry 49:05 You speak with an accent or something. And they refer to you as some derogatory- It's- But you've got to be made out of good stuff, strong stuff, to survive. Because a lot of people buy into certain things. But, I'm saying my experience in school was under segregated conditions. So when you try to separate people or deny people of anything in life, it takes an effort. So just think of people that were trying to deny you; that was wasted time. So don't think what I'm saying is all dancing and bliss. It was- In other words, I got a friend right now- I got friends that have that went on and got their doctorates degree. They excelled. And everybody used to refer to if you went to Simms, well, you can't know too much. But the only reason you didn't know certain things was cause you was denied. Leah Hedrick 49:05 Right. Howard Curry 49:05 You know, I can't be a chemist if I've never had the basics in chemistry. So, a lot of my friends that did go to college, they had a rough time. Because they didn't- they weren't allowed to be a learning person in certain- But then you had people that- I got a friend. He's at VMRC [Virginia Mennonite Retirement Community] now. And he became a psychologist, a psychiatrist. But he went to Simms, but we didn't have a- Nobody said- You didn't have nobody to bring you in and say, "Well, I think you'd be a good student in this area," or- We didn't have guidance counselors or nothing like that. We just, a teacher was everything. I mean, they were like your big brother, your mom, your uncle. They encourage you to be ready because when that opportunity comes, you better be ready. Because one day, you're going to have to go to Harrisonburg High, and you're going to have to compete against the best minds in the world. Whatever. I mean, that was, you know what I'm saying? But in a lot of ways, it made you want to strive to, 'Hey, I can compete against anybody. At any level.' Leah Hedrick 49:42 So, what fueled your decision to volunteer to fight? Howard Curry 49:47 [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 18 �Eighteen. Stupid. [everybody laughs] You know how you do things you don't really- Your buddies might say, "Hey, come on, man, let's go over." And you just kind of follow the leader. Then you get into some trouble and your dad said, "What in the world was you thinking about?" Ali Sheikh 50:11 Yeah. Howard Curry 50:12 Well, Joe Schmoe said, "Let's do it." So, yeah. But I expected more. That's all, I'm just saying, like, it wasn't like I was a patriot or anything. Like, I'm going off, and I'm going destroy the enemy. I'm just like, 'Oh, they got nice uniforms,' andAli Sheikh 50:34 Yeah. Howard Curry 50:36 I can get a chance to go to California. Otherwise, how was I going to get to California? I could've, but you know. But I'm saying at a young age. Like he's going to Christopher Newport. [To Leah] What are you going to study? Leah Hedrick 50:50 I'm still deciding, but it'd be in business. Howard Curry 50:53 At least, you undecided. You ask an 18 or 19-year-old kid. 'What do you want to be the rest of your life?' 'Well, I want to be a doctor.' Okay. Ali Sheikh 51:12 I get it. I get it. Howard Curry 51:13 So, at a young age, under any kind of conditions it's- I would say I'm a better grandparent than I ever was a parent. Because with young kids, dads, and sons. It's a big difference. You know, here's a dad. He's what? He's 40? So, you know, his idea of life is- And for you to say you like jazz... I'm like, 'C'mon. I can't believe that.' So you guys go to the same school? Leah Hedrick 51:58 We do. Turner Ashby. 51:59-52:45 [Redacted] [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 19 �Howard Curry 52:46 I would- I married my wife. She was in third grade with me. Ali Sheikh 52:51 I mean I wish I had something like that, you know, someone I can grow up with. Howard Curry 52:56 I mean, but what- I appreciate her more now than I ever have. Third grade. And I said, "Didn't you love me?" "Noo." I'm like, "Come on. I was cool. I was... Didn't you want to wear my sweater or something?" Yeah. [Laughs] It's just all fun. Yeah. So this is how you guys got assigned to do this project? Ali Sheikh 53:27 Yeah. Random. Howard Curry 53:28 Alright. There you go. I met a guy, Mohamed. He was going to JMU, and I was a mail carrier. So he was on my route. And he had finished, came to JMU. I think he was doing grad work. But he had already finished a four-year program. And we became like buddies. And finally, he finishes his schooling and he brought his wife and his kids over. He was real proud of that. I was like, "Mohamed. You come a long way, buddy." Ali Sheikh 53:32 Yeah. Howard Curry 53:40 [Imitates his friend with another tone] "Alright, Curry."[Everybody laughs]. Leah Hedrick 54:03 So, did your wife go to college after she graduated from here? Howard Curry 54:25 No, no, she didn't. Neither one of us went to school. Our kids- But she went through a program at JMU- not JMU- at RMH, the hospital. And she became like a technician. But neither of us- We didn't have a lot of schooling. But always, I enjoy being around folks that are a little smarter than I was. I got a friend, and he's a realtor. Actually, he owns the company. He's called Joe Funkhouser. He owns Funkhouser Realty. And we've become friends. He went to a separate school. But in life, you know. You never know. Ali Sheikh 55:27 Yeah. Howard Curry 55:29 [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 20 �So I know we kind of off track, aren't we? Ali Sheikh 55:32 No, it's fine. You know. Leah Hedrick 55:33 It's okay. Ali Sheikh 55:34 I enjoyed it. Leah Hedrick 55:37 Did you have any questions? Ali Sheikh 55:39 No, I think you got the questions on here. Leah Hedrick 55:45 I did want to ask you, so you said you won the state championship? For basketball? Howard Curry 55:49 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Leah Hedrick 55:50 Could you describe what you were going through when you won? Howard Curry 55:57 The coach we had, he coached everything. Basketball, football, baseball. So anyway, he would say like, "Well you know, if you want to play on the football team, you got to come out for the basketball team. Otherwise I have to deny you what you're- " But in 1960, we won state championship in our classification. I mean, it'd be like TA [Turner Ashby High School] now, if they'd win in whatever. It would be a big deal. So for us, to be from a small community- And sometimes we would play maybe down in the Richmond area or somewhere like that. And once we started advancing, so sometimes we would play places that you thought you were a little less than. Like, if you'd be from Harrisonburg and you go off to college. They say ''I'm from New York City' or 'I'm from Boston,' or 'I'm from California.' And you think, 'Oh, man. This guy, he's got it going. Because I'm from little Harrisonburg.' But it ain't always the case. But anyway, well we won in 1960. Oh, man. The trophy is right out there. It's the only state championship that this school ever- that I've ever known about. Now, I can't reflect back years ago. But yeah, when we won that thing, woo. It was like- I'll have to say, even the community was proud of you. Not just black folks but white folks. I mean, you know what I'm saying? They hadn't won anything. I'm not trying to paint it- But really, they kind of rallied. I mean, if you look up the 1960 Daily News Record [local Harrisonburg newspaper], it was headlines. 'Simms School Wins State Championship!' But, it was just a very proud moment that we finally got over the hump and [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 21 �actually beat somebody for the state championship. I mean, now it seems common. Spotswood wins in business. TA wins in wrestling, you know. But for us to win-It was- It was really a very great time. We had folks that said, "Well, we're going to throw you guys a reception." So they was, you know-Finally, you was doing something that you finally, that they wouldn't punish you for, saying 'You shouldn't do this.' Finally, they was giving you credit for doing something. So yeah, it was, if you go on, I don't know how you guys do it with all this information that is available to you, but 1960 in The Daily News Record, it was headlines. Any other time it would be like a little box down here that said, "Simms beats this school, and Curry's made two points..." But it was no more than that. So yeah, that was a great time for me. Ali Sheikh 59:55 I bet. Leah Hedrick 59:56 How old were you when you won? Howard Curry 59:59 Hmm, how old was I? Was I 16 or 17? I was, yeah, between 16 and 17. Because we always had pretty good athletes. And so to finally even make the team and then to be on the team. Now I wasn't the star. You see guys sitting on the bench. The best guy sits beside the coach and you work your way down. The guy that's sitting by the water boy down there? He might get to play. So, I finally had to work my way up. But I'm just saying to be part of that, a championship team. It was a great honor for me. Leah Hedrick 1:00:59 So, what were some of the places you were drafted to besides California? Like what were some other places you visited? When you were in the army? Howard Curry 1:01:06 I was in Vietnam. I did a tour in Vietnam. And then, I was stationed in Texas, California, Florida, New Mexico, Alaska, Washington State. So, I got an opportunity to go and do a lot of things. Especially when I became a crew member. I can remember one time we flew to Houston, Texas. And I got to go to the Houston Astrodome. I think they still have it, but the baseball team and the football team don't play in it no more. But back then, that was high-tech. And Astrodome, it was an inside facility. Because down in Houston, man, it gets very hot and humid down there. I don't know how people live down in New Orleans and places like that. It's very hot and humid. Ali Sheikh 1:02:20 Yeah. I've been there. It's prettyHoward Curry 1:02:23 You've been to-? Ali Sheikh 1:02:24 [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 22 �It's dry. Like it's not a sense that it's like high in Fahrenheit degrees, but it's like really dry. There's no like moisture in the air. Howard Curry 1:02:31 Yeah. But anyway that's- most of my life was due to [coughs] being in the military, traveling from different places. I remember the first time I flew into Hawaii. Now that's just the opposite of Houston. Ali Sheikh 1:02:52 Yeah. Howard Curry 1:02:53 [Coughs] Oh, man. It's so pleasing, the weather is so- you know. Leah Hedrick 1:03:00 It's beautiful there, yeah. Howard Curry 1:03:01 Yeah, but then Alaska, it was just the opposite. Cold. Oh, man. So I was glad to leave there. But then I ended up back into the Shenandoah Valley. Which must be very pleasing to me because I'm still here [laughs]. I love the mountains. Ali Sheikh 1:03:24 Yeah. Howard Curry 1:03:24 Yeah. I like the people. Ali Sheikh 1:03:31 I mean, you ever go like hiking back in the day orHoward Curry 1:03:35 Oh, I forgot to say, I was in the Boy Scouts. Oh, I forgot to say, I was in the boy scouts. Oh, man. Now he talking about something that I really loved. I learned how to, backpack, cook out in the open air. Yeah, I really loved that. And the thing of it is, it was during segregation, and we wasn't supposed to mix with people. But they allowed us to do certain things. And it was never no problem. Because young kids they don't know about certain things. Unless you start instilling hatred and stuff in them. Ali Sheikh 1:03:39 Oh! Yeah. Leah Hedrick 1:03:58 Right. [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 23 �Howard Curry 1:04:02 You go to school, you might meet a guy and y'all become friends. 'You can't be friends with that guy.' 'Well, why not? He's my, he-'. 'Well, here, let me explain it to you.' So whatever their explanation is. But yeah, I really loved the Boy Scouts. I even encourage the young guys, and they're like, "Man, you kidding me?" [coughs] Excuse me. Leah Hedrick 1:05:04 You're fine. So thank you for taking the time to meet with us. Like, this was huge. Howard Curry 1:05:11 Oh, man. My wife said, "Well, you like to talk." I'm like. [Everyone laughs]. But I'm like, when I was a young kid, I wasn't very outgoing or very, you know. I just seemed a little awkward or uncomfortable. But now, I'm just glad that I have something that's somebody's going to sit down and take time to listen to. It's hard to get the attention of young folks. I mean, it really is. So to have somebody say, 'Well, did you do this? Well, did you do that?' 'Oh, you wanna hear it? Okay, I'll lay it on you.' Leah Hedrick 1:05:51 Yeah. Ali Sheikh 1:05:57 That was interesting. It was good to hear, you know? Howard Curry 1:06:00 Yeah. Leah Hedrick 1:06:01 It was good to hear. [Howard Curry – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 24 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Howard W. Curry https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/simms/files/original/Simms School Oral Histories/Interview_with_Mary_Ann_Smith_Tucker.pdf 3ffdbb949e04e4d993a8cca61501cb51 PDF Text Text Interview with Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral History Project Interview status: Open to the Public Name of interviewee: Mary Ann Smith Tucker Name of interviewers: Camila Washington and Owen Longacre Date of interview:February 22, 2023 Duration of interview:00:47:36 Place of interview: Simms Education Center Language of interview: English Camila Washington 00:01 My name is Camila Washington. My interviewee is with Miss Mary Ann Smith Tucker. The date is February 22, [2023]. We are at the Simms Education Center, and the date or the time is 4:05. So, to begin, just introduce yourself, you know, say anything that you like to do in your free time. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 00:23 I am Mary Ann Smith Tucker. I grew up here in Harrisonburg. I attended Simms School, K through seventh. I am currently retired. I don't have very much free time. I do try and keep in touch as much as possible with some of my former students and some things around the community I'm helping to do. Camila Washington 00:48 When did you move out of the Harrisonburg area? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 00:51 Once I finished high school and left to go to college, which would have been 1969. Camila Washington 01:01 So as a former student at the Simms School, can you tell us about the classes that you took while you were there? And what was it like being here with your aunt? And anything along those lines? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 01:15 Well, classes here, I was, of course, elementary K through [seventh]. So we were in one classroom during the day, there was no change in classes the way you all do now. Seventh grade, we did change maybe three times during the day. P.E. and the gymnasium, cafeteria, and then mostly just the regular classrooms at that time. [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 1 �Camila Washington 01:46 What was your favorite class? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 01:50 Fifth grade, Mrs. Eubanks Owen Longacre 01:53 And that was Miss Eubanks? Camila Washington 01:53 [unclear]. [laughing] Mary Ann Smith Tucker 01:57 Mrs. Eubanks, Mary Eubanks. In fact, I still keep in touch with her. Camila Washington 02:02 Oh, wow. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 02:03 She lives in Maryland. And we do correspond Christmas cards every year. And she's, I would say, at least 90 by now. Owen Longacre 02:15 Wow. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 02:18 Yes. Camila Washington 02:18 So where did you live around, when you were attending the school? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 02:22 I lived at 395 Broad Street, on the corner. And that was the home that my grandfather built. It was a family home. And we had no buses at that time, so we all walked to school. I would say 15 minutes, maybe? Owen Longacre 02:45 And just for record. Could you just tell us what grades you would have attended Simms School, and roughly what years that might have been, to the best of your memory? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 02:58 [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 2 �Well, kindergarten through seventh. You'll have to do the math on that one [laughter]. But, I was only here through the seventh grade. Eighth grade. I went to Thomas Harrison Junior. Owen Longacre 03:12 Sure. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 03:14 So in seventh grade was, I guess that's, was '66. Seventh grade [unclear]. Owen Longacre 03:20 Okay. Camila Washington 03:23 Do you have any like specific memories that you remember when you were coming here? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 03:29 Well, we did a lot of activities. I think that was very important. The Mayday programs, the assemblies... The music, the choir, of course, was a very big part of Simms School. And not just for the younger ones, but through the high school, with high school students because most of the choir students were older. But, if you've seen the picture in the hallway, we went up the ladder, even some of the elementary students participated. Mr. Moore was the director and Mrs. Fairfax, my aunt, was the pianist. We toured. And we did compete, you know, in other places, I know one year we went to Waynesboro; we competed in a choir festival type competition. I think we came in second place. That was a favorite thing. Camila Washington 04:22 You also mentioned you did Girl Scouts last time? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 04:25 Girl Scouts, we did have a Girl Scout troop. It was started by Mrs. Francis Francis. She was a local beautician and she did it at her home so that black girls could have a Girl Scout Brownie troop because otherwise, at that time, it was segregated. And so she was responsible for that, which I thought was pretty big at that time. Owen Longacre 04:53 So, when you said you walked to school, about 15 minutes. When you showed up at school, you know, especially in your elementary years, walk us through what a typical day would have been like. What was your schedule like, and what was your normal routine? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 05:15 That's a lot. Pretty much coming in, you knew where your classroom was, the teachers would be at the door usually to greet you, there may be the principal or teachers at the front main entrance to make sure that you go to your classes on time. Then you had your coursework [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 3 �during the day. You had your lunch schedule, you had assigned P.E. time to have P.E. and the remainder of the day in classroom until dismissal. Just pretty normal. Basic. Owen Longacre 05:51 How was the lunch period? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 05:54 Lunch, just... I remember we would go through the lunch line. And we had the cafeteria, I believe at that time, was on the lower level. And we went downstairs to the cafeteria for lunch. And that was about 30 minutes in a day. Good days for P.E., we would go outside instead of just the gymnasium. Camila Washington 06:27 What was the environment like in the classes? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 06:32 Teachers at that particular time, I guess you all would consider very strict. You had the rules to follow. Very few students misbehaved in classes. For one reason, the teachers and the parents were very close. The teachers lived in the neighborhood, so they knew the parents, the parents knew the teachers. They participated in our churches... So if you misbehave at school during the day, your parents pretty much knew by the time you get home, [laughing] what happened so... We were on our P's and Q's to, do what we were supposed to do and get our work done and not misbehave. Camila Washington 07:16 So the teachers were like really involved with the education with the kids? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 07:20 Yes, absolutely. Camila Washington 07:23 That's good. Owen Longacre 07:24 Yeah, I've heard from other students that, I've heard them use that word strict. But perhaps not in the negative connotation that we might assume today, but that they cared for you. Is that an accurate statement? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 07:40 Yes, absolutely. Owen Longacre 07:44 And that they had high expectations for you. Am I characterizing them correctly that way? [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 4 �Mary Ann Smith Tucker 07:50 A lot of the teachers here came from other places, most of them North Carolina. Camila Washington 07:50 Oh, wow. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 07:58 We had two gentlemen from South Carolina, one from Alabama. So, they were very serious about providing us with an education. And I think they wanted to make sure that they were doing all they could do, to come that far and to be here and helped a small community, you know, of African American students. So they were very invested in what they were doing. And when they left, it was like losing a family member, at that point, because they had been that close with us. Camila Washington 08:35 Do you have a teacher inspired you? Like more than others? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 08:40 My aunt, of course. [laughing] Camila Washington 08:42 Good answer. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 08:44 And Mrs. Eubanks, she was my favorite. Camila Washington 08:47 What subjects did she teach? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 08:49 Fifth grade. So it was all... Camila Washington 08:55 So you've mentioned that she was your aunt. What was it like having her as a family member, but also being a teacher here and attending this school? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 09:04 In my aunt's classroom, I was a student, period. There were no exceptions made. I was held to the same standards. I had the same requirements. And if I didn't do what I was supposed to do, I had the same punishment. So she did not make any exceptions. Owen Longacre 09:24 One thing I haven't asked yet, but I'll ask you since you, your teacher, was also your aunt. What was discipline like if someone did, you know get out of line or do anything? Were there anySeemed like maybe you'd remember some things? [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 5 �Mary Ann Smith Tucker 09:42 Well, for one thing, the principal had a paddle, and at that time you could paddle. And this was the office next door and you would go in his back office, and he would close the door and he would paddle. I was never paddled, but several boys were paddled, and Miss Arrington, some students might tell you this, she was the fourth-grade teacher. She had a yardstick that she called Betsy, and if you misbehaved in Miss Arrington's class, Betsy hit the knuckles, which was painful. [laughing] Camila Washington 10:23 I believe it. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 10:26 I'm... trying to think of who else. Owen Longacre 10:29 Was this principal [W.N.P] Harris? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 10:31 No, Giles. Owen Longacre 10:33 Giles, okay. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 10:34 Mr. Giles. Miss Arrington fourth grade. I don't know too much about how the coaches worked with the boys as far as discipline. But I know the paddle was the main office technique. Camila Washington 10:50 Did you do any other extracurriculars other than Girl Scouts and choir? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 10:55 No, not that at that time. There wasn't a lot, you know, available because of the situation. Owen Longacre 11:05 You mentioned May Day and I do want to circle back to that, of course. That's a celebration that seems to be very unique to the Simms School and also a tradition that later carried on to the Harrisonburg City Public Schools at Waterman Elementary, and they still celebrate May Day. I guess my question was, do you know, have any idea of how that started or how your aunt, Mrs. Awkard Fairfax, created that as an event for the school or maybe where that originated from? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 11:38 I think they had researched a May Day and Maypole and May Day tradition, and she and some of the other teachers, maybe Mrs. Bates. Mrs. Arrington, Mrs. Eubanks... They worked as a [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 6 �committee. And they set up the program, they developed the Maypole. They had parents and teachers who made costumes. Each grade level had a representative in the court for the May Queen. And then there was a May Queen that was elected. And we all voted for the May Queen. And that particular day was an all-day festivity in the back of the school. And there were games and the court, the May Court they had a queen, had a king, and they had their thrones and their crowns. And it was like a real queen and king. It was a big, big activity, day-long activity. Owen Longacre 12:42 Sounds like Homecoming. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 12:44 Similar, very similar. Camila Washington 12:47 Like once a year? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 12:48 Yes, I believe it was usually May the first if it fell on a school day. Camila Washington 12:56 So our understanding was that the school was an important pillar in the surrounding community. Did you feel that this was true? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 13:04 The school at that time was definitely the foundation of the community. Because most activities outside of church would take place here. Owen Longacre 13:17 What type of activities might take place here? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 13:23 Piano recitals, the chorus, their work, plays... Sometimes I think they used, some of the churches may have used the auditorium-gymnasium for a large gathering of people. Camila Washington 13:45 How was the community around here different than like outside of the Simms School? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 13:49 I would say, because it was a small black population, there was a closeness, a bond. It was pretty much confined to these five or six streets. A lot of people didn't wander out very much outside of the community. We had a store, Mrs. Lena Stewart had a store on Kelly Street. That was a small convenience store, and she would- Could call it a convenience store today, but that was our neighborhood store. And that was the only neighborhood store that we had. [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 7 �Owen Longacre 14:39 I know that students came to the Simms School from all over, from as far as Luray in the north, to West Virginia in the west, but the community here around Simms School maybe had something special. My question is, did what how many students at the Simms School do you think came from the surrounding immediate community? And, what was the relationship like with students who maybe were bussed in from Rockingham or from other parts that might not have lived right here and would have been able to walk to school? Were you able to maintain friendships with those students? Or did the distance kind of keep some of those things from happening? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 15:28 No, what happened with that, and I don't know what the bussing situation was like, or if their parents brought them. I'm not sure about that part. But we did have students from Grottoes, Elkton, McGaheysville, Bridgewater. Maybe as far as... what's after Bridgewater? Owen Longacre 16:01 Dayton. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 16:03 Maybe Dayton? Owen Longacre 16:05 Mount Jackson. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 16:06 I don't- not that far out of the way. But those students did come here because there was no place for them to go. They had to come here. But yes, that was one of the things; we made friends with a lot of people from different places. And that was one of the losses, in a sense, when schools integrated, because then we lost our friends, and some we kept in touch with, but a lot we never saw anymore. And the boys had been on the basketball teams or they had participated. I mean, this was their school, and they were our friends. But that was a loss in a sense with the integration. Camila Washington 16:43 You mentioned you went to Thomas Harrison after you went to Seventh Grade. Was that before or after desegregation? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 16:50 That was '66-'67. So, yes, that was the first year, I believe. Camila Washington 16:59 So, what was your initial reaction to desegregation, and what did you feel in that moment when you first heard about it? [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 8 �Mary Ann Smith Tucker 17:09 I think there was apprehension. Our parents, of course, had concerns of how their children were going to be treated because you're going to a completely new environment. And I think they wanted improvement. They wanted their children to have the opportunities. But of course, there was that uncertainty of how you're going to adapt. How will the teachers adapt to the students? How will we adapt to new teachers? A whole new environment, a new building... Everything was changing. So I felt like it was time because certain things here were lacking. We didn't have the materials, we didn't have the equipment. And we really needed to have a better situation. And that was a positive. And I thought when we did transition, it was a smooth transition compared to some places in the United States. We did not have that problem here. Not that I'm aware of. Camila Washington 18:19 How did your parents react when they heard the news? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 18:23 Mixed feelings, mixed feelings... They wanted, of course, my parents' goal was always for me to go to college. Camila Washington 18:31 Yeah. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 18:31 So, they wanted me to have the best education I could have. But again, there's that fear maybe, of how will it transition? Will she be okay? You know, will people be nice? Or... Owen Longacre 18:46 Do you feel like the reaction from maybe your parents and that generation, and maybe you as a student, and being younger, was that a different reaction to the thought of going to a new school? Or, did you feel like you shared some of the same feelings? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 19:09 I think different. Owen Longacre 19:11 And why might that be? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 19:13 Well, at that age, at that time, I think our main focus was going to a new school. And you're not thinking about all the repercussions, or all the seriousness, or the politics that play into a transition like that. Camila Washington 19:33 [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 9 �Can you tell us about what it was like being in a desegregated school like, for the first time? And, if you had any like experiences that stay with you today? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 19:46 I think the main thing was, well, first of all, you had to become accustomed to the building, which was much larger than this building. You had to learn your way around. Teachers who were, I thought, very accommodating, because they understood that we were making a major change. And I only had maybe two that I did not feel comfortable with when I went to junior high school. But otherwise, I felt like the teachers did their best. The choir director, I can't remember her name, Mrs. Hartman, I believe? She pulled in a lot of our choir members into the Harrisonburg High School choir. So that kind of gave you a little feeling of connectedness there. And of course, the boys, I always felt like boys had it a little bit easier because they have sports. Camila Washington 20:42 Yeah. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 20:43 And Howard Stevens, you may have heard of him a long time ago. He was one of the first black boys to play on the football team. And then several other boys were on the basketball team, so it made it a little easier for boys, I think, than girls. Camila Washington 20:57 Did you make any like new friends? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 21:00 Yes, I did. Several, several. And I saw them at my 50th reunion a few years ago. Camila Washington 21:09 Oh, wow. Owen Longacre 21:10 As you transitioned from Simms School to Thomas Harrison, you mentioned some of the physical differences. What was the classwork like and how did that compare? What was your experience like in the classroom? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 21:23 The classroom experience was quite different. For instance, with science, when we moved to Thomas Harrison and on to Harrisonburg High School, well Thomas Harrison the first year, we had very limited science equipment. For instance, in your science lab, where you'd never done an experiment, or we'd never dissected a frog. And, that was something brand new to us, that we had to learn. P.E. equipment. I remember gymnastics was brand new to me. I almost never heard of, what is gymnastics? And then the balance beams and the parallel bars, and all of that had to be new. Foreign language... My first year, I did take Latin, horrible experience [laughing]. But these were things that, honestly, we hadn't been totally prepared for. And not for lack of the [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 10 �teachers trying, but not having the materials that they needed to work with what equipment that they needed to work with. So they did the best that they could do under the circumstances. Owen Longacre 22:38 Yeah, and that feeling of maybe seeing this new world... I'm always interested in, like, what... What feelings were you thinking as you were getting exposed to Latin and gymnastics, and these other things? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 22:54 Overwhelming. Owen Longacre 22:55 Okay. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 22:56 In the beginning, very overwhelming. In fact, I had, my mother even had a tutor for me, I think my first year of high school to kind of help me make the adjustment. Because it was a lot when you are not accustomed to the larger classes, the larger building, the new teachers... The curriculum was a little more difficult, and, yeah, it could be very overwhelming at times. Owen Longacre 22:56 Were there any feelings of anger or maybe frustration that this had been your first time seeing some of those new subjects, or... Mary Ann Smith Tucker 23:35 I wouldn't say anger, but it just was a realization of what we had been missing by being in a segregated school. And you did feel a little behind, left behind, and we had to play catch up to be where we should have been. And the other students, it came natural to them because they'd had it all the time. And we didn't. So that was a little unnerving. Owen Longacre 24:06 And maybe, would it be fair to say what was denied? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 24:08 Yes, exactly. Owen Longacre 24:10 Right. Camila Washington 24:13 Did you feel like a sense of loss when the school shut down? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 24:17 [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 11 �Yes. With the teachers, and... Especially the teachers and some of my very close friends that were in those situations with Grottoes or Elkton and they moved away. Owen Longacre 24:31 Yeah, and to couple that question, we've talked about a lot that desegregation is typically considered to be a positive movement, but there were a lot of unintended consequences. And I've heard you say that you had lost friends. And maybe, I'd love to hear more about maybe how you felt of the loss of teachers. And, were there any other ideas of what those unintended consequences might have been and how that impacted your experience or other persons in the neighborhood? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 24:42 Yes. Well, I think with the teachers, as I may have stated before, most of them came from other states. So not only did we just lose them here at the school, they moved back home, they went back to North Carolina or Alabama, wherever they had come from. And with the friends, when you go from a classroom of maybe 16 to a class of 25 or 30, and we were all in different classes. So it may be one black student in a class, two black students in a class... So you may not see your friends all day, because you could be on a completely different track, as they used to call it. If you went to an academic track or vocational track, you just pass in the hallway, unless maybe it was elective, an elective class, but otherwise, you may not see those friends. So that caused some separation, where we weren't as close anymore, we didn't see each other all day, we weren't together all day. We used to walk home from school because it was very close, and you have your little group of friends you walk home with every day, so that changed. Because most of us, we did walk to school when we had to walk out to High Street. And then there were a few high school students were lucky enough to have cars. So a few of them had cars, but most of us had to walk, or our parents would pick us up. So we didn't have the little neighborhood strolling home every day, stop at the store and buy ice cream and little things like that. Owen Longacre 26:38 And so you walked from your house on Broad Street all the way to Thomas Harrison? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 26:42 Oh, yes. Owen Longacre 26:44 That's not close. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 26:45 No, it is not. And that was rain, or sleet, or snow. Because we had no buses. And even when we had prom, this is later, I'm going down the line to when I was at the high school, we had girls who walked to the prom in their gowns and the boys in their tuxedos. Owen Longacre 27:06 [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 12 �That must have been, 45 minutes almost? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 27:10 Probably, with the traffic and everything because High Street, we had to go, well depending, usually way up. I'm trying to think, how did we go, Rock Street maybe? Up to High Street, where the old high school is, and that was the junior high school. Yes, that was quite a walk. Camila Washington 27:31 Can you explain like more about the difference in education attending the Simms School or Thomas Harrison versus going to Harrisonburg High School? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 27:44 Not anymore, really, than I've already said. It's mostly the situation with the materials, the experiences in the labs, the foreign language, things of that sort. I don't know what foreign language was taught here because I wasn't here during the high school years. Owen Longacre 28:06 Right. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 28:06 But someone can probably fill that part in for you. Owen Longacre 28:11 Were there any teachers that were able to follow you to either Thomas Harrison or, eventually, Harrisonburg High? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 28:17 Mrs. Blakey went to Harrisonburg High School as a business teacher. Barbara Blakey, we had two Blakeys. Barbara Blakey was our typing teacher at Harrisonburg High School. Mrs. Pat Blakey went to a different elementary school in Harrisonburg; I'm not sure which one. My aunt was assigned to Waterman Elementary School. And I believe they're the only [four] everyone else left. Miss Amelia Jones did become a secretary at Harrisonburg High School. [Note: Ms. Arrington did go to an elementary school.] Owen Longacre 28:59 Did you happen to have any of them for a teacher in the new school? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 29:02 Just Mrs. Blakey, she was the only one I had for typing. But it was interesting, they were all in different schools. After being here teaching together, they were all at different schools. My aunt was the only black teacher at Waterman. Miss Arrington, I believe, was the only black teacher at Spotswood Elementary, and Mrs. Blakey was at Harrisonburg High School, so they lost a little unity as well. [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 13 �Owen Longacre 29:33 Now, I know, I was going to ask, did your aunt ever talk about what that was like, going to Waterman? That transition for her as a professional, you know, going from one school to another? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 29:48 She has an interview. Did you hear the interview? Have ya'll heard it? And then she had a documentary, I believe with, I'm trying to think what she did that with, maybe with JMU, or EM, maybe Eastern Mennonite. And she went into detail about the transition. I think initially, she had some problems with some teachers not wanting to work together. And then she had a principal, Mr. O'Donnel, that, I would say, helped her ease into the transition. She thought a lot of him. And he seemed to think a very a lot of her. And by the time she was there a couple of years, she was doing May Day again, had May Day performances and different things at Waterman. And she taught at Waterman a long time until she retired and had many friendships in the end. But initially, I know she had some difficulty. Owen Longacre 30:53 I just wanted to ask that, about the Simms School, the building itself, did you return back to the school for any events or anything? You know, once the school shut down and talked about how it was the foundation of this community, and... What happened to the building? Do you remember ever coming back for any events or? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 31:16 No, not really, not until recently. When we started on this project, it's probably the first time I had been back to this building, which was a long time. They did have reunions; they were doing reunions every five years with Effinger, which was the school prior to Simms. The Effinger-Simms reunions were done approximately every three to five years. But they were usually held at what used to be Belle Mead Motel out on South Main Street, but never here at the school. Now, I believe the last reunion they had maybe six years ago was held here, but I didn't attend that particular reunion. But they have started utilizing the building more. As far as the community, they've had some receptions here and different functions of Carlton Banks, who passed recently, was a close friend and cousin of mine and his repass was held here after the service. So they're beginning to pull the building back into community activities, it seems. Owen Longacre 32:30 So you mentioned they had reunions here for the Effinger Street School? Of course, the Effinger Street School no longer stands. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 32:38 But it wasn't here. Owen Longacre 32:39 You're right. [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 14 �Mary Ann Smith Tucker 32:40 Yes. Owen Longacre 32:40 It would've been streets away. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 32:43 Down, way down at the bottom near where you had the Safeway and the ABC stores down that way now, that used to be Effinger Street. Owen Longacre 32:55 And, so my question, actually, is about the fact that that school no longer exists, and I was wondering, it's maybe not exactly related, but where you also, did you experience some of the urban renewal that happened in Harrisonburg in the 1960s? And, did that impact your family at all in terms of housing and property because that was very closely intertwined with the desegregation and shutting down the Simms School... You mentioned your family home was on Broad Street, was that impacted at all by... Mary Ann Smith Tucker 33:25 Gay Street, our house was on the corner of Broad and Gay, and we lost half of our yard because they widened Gay Street. And then going from the corner of Broad and Gay, down to Mason Street and Main Street. Homes were on Gay Street on both sides of Gay Street. They were black-owned homes. All of those homes were taken. And the homes on Effinger Street were taken, the school was taken. And that resulted in a lot of people being displaced. So, excuse me, some received stipends to rebuild, which resulted in the brick houses along Broad Street, but also in the public housing projects of Hill Street and Kelly Street. And also they built some public housing project-type homes on Broad Street, mostly occupied by the elderly in that section. Owen Longacre 34:34 You mentioned your family home was on Broad Street. Was that impacted at all by... Mary Ann Smith Tucker 34:39 Broad and Gay. We were right on the corner. Owen Longacre 34:42 Okay, so is your grandfather's house, is it still there? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 34:45 It's still there. It's not in the best of shape anymore, but a lot of the property- We also owned a lot behind that house with another home that Aunt Mary [Awkard] used to live in before she was married, so that house was also taken. And both sides of Gay Street, there were several on Effinger Street. There were some on Washington Street, that were taken. So that was a big impact, as far as the housing. [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 15 �Owen Longacre 35:19 I was going to ask, and pardon me, but I, can you describe your feelings during that time when that happened? However raw they might be or whether... Mary Ann Smith Tucker 35:34 Because of the age that I was and because I was leaving to go to college, it didn't affect me as much as it did some of my friends who stayed behind in Harrisonburg and were very distraught and upset because their parents' houses were torn down. They had to move to different locations. But I just wasn't here to really feel the impact of all that. Going down Broad Street, that whole block had black homes, and none of those homes were affected. Broad Street was pretty much preserved. Camila Washington 36:19 What did you do after high school? I know you mentioned you went to college? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 36:24 That was about it. I went to college and never moved back, unfortunately. But it's something that happens sometimes. Sometimes you move back home sometimes you don't. And I went to college and married early, and had my son, and went back to graduate school, started teaching. That's why I ended up in Chesterfield, Petersburg. My first teaching job was in Hopewell, then I moved to Petersburg, where I taught first grade, second, third, fifth, and sixth, and then eventually to Chesterfield County, and I taught seventh-grade history, and that's when I retired. So, I would come back and visit, but I didn't come back to live. Owen Longacre 37:10 I didn't realize you taught history. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 37:14 Yes. Camila Washington 37:16 What influenced you to teach that? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 37:18 My uncle was a history professor, Joseph Awkard, Jr. History and psychology. Camila Washington 37:29 What college did you attend? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 37:33 Virginia State. Owen Longacre 37:36 [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 16 �I've heard that before from some other interviewees, Virginia State. Was that a popular destination? Or was that something that you were maybe pointed in the direction towards? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 37:47 Virginia State started as a normal school. Aunt Mary went to Virginia State and several other- I think Dr. Goldie Nicholas went to Virginia State, because again, you had limited opportunities. In this area, several families sent their children to Virginia State College. The Washington family, there were several of them that went to Virginia State. Donna Rhodes did go to- I believe Donna went to Hampton. And her sisters I think went to Hampton, because Hampton was a historically black school. But Virginia State was very popular in his area. Camila Washington 38:29 So how did the Simms School and going to Harrisonburg influence you in the, your future after he graduated? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 38:49 I would say my love of teaching. Having my aunt as a teacher, my uncle being in the education field... And again, at that time, there weren't a lot of opportunities, job opportunities for young black women. You know, now you can do anything. You can go anywhere, but a lot of times, teaching was the main occupation for women of my age and color at that time. So I would say that would probably be the main factor, the reason that I went into teaching. When you look back at the Simms School, what do you feel its legacy is? Being the center, the foundation, as we said earlier. You know, this was the connecting force for the neighborhood, for the teachers as well as the parents and the students. As we said, some of the teachers lived in the homes. In our home on Broad Street, we had three teachers to board with us. Owen Longacre 39:58 Oh, wow. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 40:00 The home economics teacher, Mrs. Campbell, she was a resident of Washington DC. And her husband worked in Washington in the government, so she would commute on the weekends. But she would stay at our house during the week. Another teacher, Mrs. Foster, her husband was in the military, and she boarded with us. He was stationed in North Carolina. And when she left, she moved back to North Carolina. And then our last teacher that came to board with us was Mrs. Miller. and Mrs. Miller's husband was in the military. She would stay with us during the school year, and then go home. And it was funny because when I started teaching in Petersburg, her son turned up in my classroom. Owen Longacre 40:56 Okay. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 40:56 [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 17 �And I told him, I said, I know you, I remember you when you were a baby [laugther]. Your mother used to live in my house. So it was funny. It was really a funny coincidence. Owen Longacre 41:06 Wow, so not only were they close in your neighborhood, but some of them lived in your own home. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 41:12 Yes. And I believe some stayed on Mason Street in the Atkins home. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, that was a pretty prestigious big house at one time. I think they boarded teachers as well. Camila Washington 41:25 Would you say the Simms School was the main place for African Americans to be around? Like a main community? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 41:35 Yes, yes. Absolutely. Camila Washington 41:39 Was there anywhere else that you could go about? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 41:45 Well, things were opening up at the time. So there were dances and social events at the armory on Friday nights. And we would go to that. We could go skating. The theaters were beginning to open up because they were still a little segregated where you had to sit upstairs in the balcony. You couldn't sit downstairs. Department stores, same thing, restrooms were still a little segregated. I remember going to Leggett's Department Store, and you couldn't use the restroom. So, we were getting there, but some places weren't quite there at that point. Court Square, they used to have water fountains, there was a colored water fountain and a white water fountain. So we're transitioning, but it took a little while for everything to open up the way it should have been. Owen Longacre 42:49 So as we think about the Simms School, was there any other memories or any other thoughts or things that you might not have had a chance to share that come to mind? You look back on the school or the faculty or anything else you might have experienced during that time? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 43:05 One thing I was going to mention, Mrs. Mary Glick. She was our home economics teacher, the last home economics teacher when I was here. She was the only Caucasian teacher at Simms. Owen Longacre 43:21 I didn't realize there was one. [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 18 �Mary Ann Smith Tucker 43:22 She was the only one, and she was [an] awesome teacher. She set up a trip for the girls in our class; I guess that was my seventh-grade class. She took us to State College, Pennsylvania. And she organized a trip, the transportation, and she set up guest homes for us to stay in, which was a very new experience. Number one, you're leaving the state, you're going to State College, you're going to college campus. And the generosity of these people who did not know us, they'd never seen us before, and they opened their doors to us and we stayed there for two days. Some of the parents went along with us. But she orchestrated a trip, and I'll never forget that. That was just, one of the highlights of my being here at Simms. I don't know if she's ever really gotten enough credit for what she did. And I also appreciate the fact that I'm sure it was difficult for her to be the only Caucasian teacher here. So she had adjustments to make, and she did a very good job. Owen Longacre 44:38 Do you have any understanding of how that might have come to be? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 44:43 She was the only one that I guess they could locate that would come here because the other home economics teacher, Mrs. Campbell, as I had mentioned, she moved back to Washington. Owen Longacre 44:57 Okay. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 44:58 And I guess they couldn't find another black home economics teacher. So we had Mrs. Glick, but she was a jewel, she really was. I can't think of anything else... Do you have anything else? Camila Washington 45:22 I asked all of mine... I guess, do you think any of your experiences at the Simms school led to where your teaching career went? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 45:36 I guess observation of the way these teachers related to their students, looking at the types of relationships they had, the classroom environment. As I said, our teachers were very strict, and I was told by my students that I was very strict. [laughing] Because I sort of followed in those footsteps. Owen Longacre 46:03 Well, I'll just recap. We took a moment to think about the years that you spent here from kindergarten through seventh grade. We talked a little bit about your schedule at the beginning of the day, what your environment was like in the classes, and spent a lot of time talking about the teachers that inspired you, from your aunt to Mrs. Bates, Mrs. Arrington, and many others, and talked a lot about how the school, I think I remember you saying it was the center or a [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 19 �connecting force in the community. And so as we, as we do come to a close with, do of those, recapping any of that, was there anything you felt like was left out or you wanted to add when it comes to thinking about the Simms School and the eventual desegregation? And going over to Thomas Harrison and Harrisonburg High, was there anything you just wanted to add before we come to a close? Mary Ann Smith Tucker 47:03 I don't think so. I think we've just about covered everything that I can remember from that point in time. There may be some additional things some of the older students can share with you all, who stayed here through 12th grade. But with me leaving at seventh grade, that's probably it for me. Owen Longacre 47:27 Okay. Do you have any more questions? Camila Washington 47:30 I think I've asked all my questions. Mary Ann Smith Tucker 47:32 Well, I am so glad that you all are doing this project. Camila Washington 47:35 Thank you. [Mary Ann Smith Tucker Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Ann Smith Tucker https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/simms/files/original/Simms School Oral Histories/Interview_with_Lowell_Toliver.pdf 1a20a6388b9e24291da59b62589f4afa PDF Text Text Interview with Lowell Toliver Lucy F. Simms School Oral History Project Interview status: Open to the Public Name of interviewee: Lowell Toliver Name of interviewers: Avery Chandler, Owen Longacre Date of interview: Feb 16, 2023 Duration of interview: 01:11:10 Place of interview: Google Voice Language of interview: English Interview with Lowell Toliver Google Voice Notification 00:00 This call is now being recorded. Avery Chandler 00:05 Mr. Toliver, do you consent to this recording and give us permission to interview you today? Lowell Toliver 00:12 Yes, I do. Avery Chandler 00:13 Awesome. And for recording purposes, my name is Avery Chandler. I will be interviewing you Mr. Lowell Toliver. Today is February 16, 2023. And we are interviewing in SHS [Spotswood High School]. All right, Mr. Toliver. I know you graduated from the Simms school, but what years did you attend the school, begin your elementary years, and when you graduated? Lowell Toliver 00:42 Whoa. You know, I was afraid you were going to ask that [laughs]. Let me see. I've got to do a little multiplying. I graduated in '52. And so why don't we say 1941 I started. Avery Chandler 01:07 Yeah. Lowell Toliver 01:07 Okay? [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 1 �Avery Chandler 01:08 Yeah, that's about 11 years. Lowell Toliver 01:10 Because yeah, okay. 1941 I started in in the first grade with Miss Jean Francis. Avery Chandler 01:20 Jean Francis, that was your first grade teacher? Lowell Toliver 01:23 That was my first grade teacher. Now, I'm not too sure whether she was kindergarten, too. But that was the first class that I attended with her. And that was in 1941. Avery Chandler 01:36 1941. Lowell Toliver 01:38 Incidentally, you know, World War II was going on then. Avery Chandler 01:42 Yes. Lowell Toliver 01:44 Okay. Avery Chandler 01:46 What was your experience like at the Lucy Simms School? Could you tell us a little bit about that? Lowell Toliver 01:53 For all the years? Avery Chandler 01:56 Yes. Your whole experience throughout your time at the Simms School. Lowell Toliver 02:00 I think it was really okay. It could have been better, but during those times, you know, it wasn't going to get any better. So we just had to make do with what we had. Avery Chandler 02:15 Would you like to elaborate on what you mean by "okay?" What are some details about what made the experience "okay." [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 2 �Lowell Toliver 02:27 I guess I got the basic foundations of education, because we had to multiply, subtract, and do the general work from first to second grade. Avery Chandler 02:56 And what was your average school day like? Besides all the curriculum and what you were learning? Lowell Toliver 03:03 You're taking a big bite at the apple here because you said average school day.You're talking about from kindergarten to high school? Avery Chandler 03:13 Your early years. We'll be talking about your early years. Lowell Toliver 03:15 So we stick with the early years now. Avery Chandler 03:18 Yeah. Lowell Toliver 03:18 Okay, well, first of all, I would get up in the morning. We would have breakfast. And I had to walk to school, which was around about maybe a mile, a mile and a half away. And we had no snow days. Avery Chandler 03:34 [laughs] So you didn't get that free day off of school, like we do? Lowell Toliver 03:42 No, and I didn't get a free ride to school [laughs]. I was walking, you know, patting and turning. That's the old term that they used to use. Anyway. By the time we got to school, in the first grade, there was tables set up. Miss Jean Francis would teach us different colors and nursery rhymes and things like that. And we would be in there until about three o'clock in the evening. And then we'd go back home. And that would be the end of the school day. Avery Chandler 04:28 And what time did the school day end? Around three o'clock like we do now? Yeah, it started at nine o'clock and it was over with at three. And we had an hour for lunch. During those days, you would bring your lunch. You'd fix a bag lunch at home. In the first and second grade, you wasn't old enough to go to the cafeteria. Did you have a favorite lunch went that you brought to school? Lowell Toliver 05:12 [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 3 �Well, whatever my mother and father fixed for me, that's what I ate. No, I didn't have a favorite lunch. Avery Chandler 05:21 Okay. Do you recall what street you grew up on? Lowell Toliver 05:26 I recall two streets that I grew up on. Rock Street and Mason Street, which are the main streets. It was during the redevelopment period. Well, the streets are there, but the houses are not there. I know you're not familiar with Harrisonburg, but on Mason Street, where my house was, an Advanced [Auto Parts] store is there now. And there's a big rock. And that was in our basement. And I think around the corner is the fire department, the new Hose Company No. 4. And on Rock Street, which was 160 Rock Street, which was around maybe five or six houses, and across the street was an open field and that field was where a [chicken feed] bag company eventually built a store or a cleaning facility for bags. Avery Chandler 05:26 I do recall the streets, Rock and Mason. My dad actually works at Hose Company No. 4 in downtown Harrisonburg. He's the captain for the Harrisburg Fire Department. So I just made that little connection between the two, which I thought was pretty cool. Lowell Toliver 06:01 It was downtown. Was he in the new department or the old department? Avery Chandler 07:12 Well, he currently works for them. So it's the new House Company No. 4. Lowell Toliver 07:14 Okay, because No. 4 was located on Wolf street. No, it wasn't Wolf Street. It was the next street over where the post office was. And they were down there Hose Company No. 4. But during the redevelopment, almost all of the county government's offices were built in places where the new Hose Company is now, which is on Rock street. Avery Chandler 08:00 So back to the Simms School. How were the teachers in your early years at the elementary school? Lowell Toliver 08:07 Well, I can remember two teachers and what I'd learned under them. Miss Jean Francis, who I probably learned my colors from. And then there was another teacher called Ruth Hollins. She had third, fourth, and fifth grade. And boy, did she have a job [laughs]. In the first grade, we had tables, and the teacher could set up the tables in any way that she wanted to. But with the third, fourth, and fifth grades, there were desks lined up for three rows. Now don't ask me what would happen if there was more people than there was desks in a row. I'm still trying to figure that one [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 4 �out as I got older [laughs], but fortunately, it wasn't enough to fill up. I think it was about nine desks in a row. And it was three rows or that was third, fourth, and fifth grade which Ruth Hollins taught. She actually taught us how to read, write, and sentences, multiply, subtrack, everything. That's where I basically got the learning of the basic foundation. Avery Chandler 09:31 And could you say that Miss Hollins was one of your most influential teachers in your years at the Simms school? Lowell Toliver 09:39 She was. No questions asked. Avery Chandler 09:45 So, she definitely made a significant impact on your experience there? Lowell Toliver 09:51 She took time to understand each individual kid. Now maybe because we had a small class she could afford to do that. But she made sure when you walked out of there every day you learned something, if it wasn't anymore than how to tie up your shoes [laughs]. Avery Chandler 10:19 So as you got older, you obviously moved up in grades. And what was the dynamic like between the high school students and the younger elementary school students? Because I know you guys were all in the same building. Lowell Toliver 10:31 Yeah, well, when you said high school, you mean what grades? Avery Chandler 10:36 The grades would have been 9 to 12? 8 to 12? Lowell Toliver 10:47 All right. Our junior high was sixth and seventh. And then our high school was eight, nine... Wait a minute, I got that wrong. Seventh and eighth was junior high, which was still on the elementary level of the school. We didn't move upstairs until eight, nine, ten, and eleventh. There was only three high school grades now. So seventh and eighth were still on the elementary level. Nine, ten, and eleven was what were considered high school. Avery Chandler 11:42 Okay, and when you were a younger student, what do you remember about the high school students? Did you ever interact with them whatsoever? Or did you guys stay to your separate ways since you were on different floors? Lowell Toliver 12:01 [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 5 �If you was in high school, you didn't have anything to do with the elementary. Anybody that was on the first floor [laughs]. I'll put it like that. Because actually, high school was considered a second floor. It was only two floors in the school. So, it was the top level. Avery Chandler 12:28 Did you have a younger or older sibling that attended the Simms School alongside you? Lowell Toliver 12:33 I had a younger sibling, which was a brother. He came along about three years behind me. Everything completely changed. I think they had more studies and more educational work. Avery Chandler 13:04 Go ahead. Lowell Toliver 13:05 No, go ahead. Avery Chandler 13:07 So they got a little more curriculum and a little more education than you guys did, persay? Lowell Toliver 13:14 Oh, my older brother and sister were about four years ahead of me. When they graduated from Simms, it was the place to be then because they were coming from Effinger Street School. And it was altogether different to have a school of their own. A modern school, I'll put it like that. Avery Chandler 13:49 So do you remember your relationship with your older and younger siblings? Were you guys close? Lowell Toliver 13:56 Oh yeah. We was all close because we lived in the same house and we was a close knit family. And if my younger siblings didn't do what we were supposed to do, then my oldest siblings was right there to make sure we did it. Avery Chandler 14:22 And how did your school day and experience change as you got older and moved up in grade levels? Lowell Toliver 14:38 I'll say there was more book work. But we would have books that we would work out. Like the third, fourth, and fifth grade, Miss Hollins had books. And she would stay strictly on those pages. So we learned what she had down for the year. In the beginning of the year, we had used books. Half of the pages are gone. They were all marked up and everything. But eventually, by the time we got to the fifth grade, we was getting new books straight from the press. And we [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 6 �would have to buy those books, and then we'd have to sell them to the next grade for half of the price that we paid for them. But they had all the pages in them. Avery Chandler 15:49 So what were some of your fondest memories of Simms School? Lowell Toliver 15:56 Memorial Day. Because that was the day we got out of school the next day. Avery Chandler 16:05 Did you say Memorial Day? Lowell Toliver 16:07 Yes. We got out for the summer. Avery Chandler 16:11 Yes. Lowell Toliver 16:13 Yeah, we got out Memorial Day and then we didn't go back until after Labor Day. And I guess that was because you were needed around the house or whatever to do little odd jobs like. You didn't go up until July or August or anything. Avery Chandler 16:48 Do you recall any celebrations or extra curricular activities that you've enjoyed at the Simms school? Lowell Toliver 16:58 All the way through elementary, we had what you call operettas, which was plays that the teachers would practice. Each student had a talking part and we had costumes. And I never will forget it. The costumes were made out of crepe paper. Crepe paper. If you can imagine that. And they were all hand sewn by a lady called Miss Goodell. And she did all of this on the crepe paper. And you would have to go to her house and be fitted. And you never put on that costume until the day of the play. And that was it. And for half the kids, the paper would tear and they would be crying and it was a grand mess [laughs]. Avery Chandler 17:57 So what did you say that play was called? What is this? Lowell Toliver 18:00 It was an operetta that we had every year. I think this is the only place that they had it was in black schools. Because we actually learn how to sing "Lift Every Voice," and sing. And we had operettas at the end of the school year for all the elementary grades. And they all participated in it. And that was a big thing. That was almost equal to our May Day. [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 7 �Avery Chandler 18:39 So what can you tell me about May Day? I know you mentioned in our previous interview that you enjoyed it but what's a little more about your experience with May Day and details that you remember? Lowell Toliver 18:49 You know, I don't remember a whole lot about May Day. Because our operetta probably took the place of May Day. The older kids in high school would probably do a May Day program which would last for about 25 to 30 minutes. It was just wrapping a band around around the flagpole. That was our May Day celebration. Avery Chandler 19:26 And you really are talking about that play. Did that celebration and activity unite you guys as students? Lowell Toliver 19:40 In those days, our whole community, now it's called Northeast, was called the colored section of town, and everybody sort of stuck together. They worked together. Nobody needed anything. You never saw kids walking around hungry. Somebody was always feeding them or somebody took you in and bought you used clothes or something. It was a tight knit community. Avery Chandler 20:23 So that community: what impact did that make on you? What do you recall from your experiences living in that community? Lowell Toliver 20:33 Well, I could go to anybody's house and ask for help, if I needed help. I just felt safe in that community, because everybody knew everybody, and everybody looked out for everybody. And we all communicated and played together. Avery Chandler 20:59 So you guys were very close as a community, not just as a school, but as a community as well? Lowell Toliver 21:05 In that part of town, yes, it was. We were all together. That was the only thing we could do. We couldn't go anywhere else. So we had to stay in that community and the older generation would have unorganized baseball games. And then we had a lot of talent programs. Talent shows that the whole community would take part in. And then we had a strong religious community. Because we had two churches, the Baptist and the Methodist. And you belonged to one of the two churches. Avery Chandler 22:03 Which church did you belong to and attend? [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 8 �Lowell Toliver 22:06 I belonged to the Methodist, John Wesley, which was on Liberty Street. Which there again, we had to walk to it down around the Court Square. I think the Wetsel Seed Company has a restaurant or something there now. The church had special programs where you had to go in the evenings to them. And they would have Bible study during the summer. And we used to go on day trips on the train from Depot Hill to Linville and have a cookout, a lawn party. And then have a picnic. That was one of the big things that we did during the summer was go to summer Bible school. Avery Chandler 23:14 What were these picnics like with your church? Like what food did you guys serve? What activities did you guys work with? Lowell Toliver 23:22 Well, there was always three or four chaperones. We had picnic baskets that each family would fix for their kids. You would get off the train, and you probably have to walk maybe about two miles down the road to the area where we would have picnics set up. You would sit out there and eat and dance and sing and play ball. Whatever kids would do when they were out like that. Avery Chandler 24:04 I've heard you mentioned baseball a few times. Were you able to play any sports when you were younger? Lowell Toliver 24:12 Yes. We had a basketball team. And that was about the only sport that we really could participate in because our the coach was also a teacher. And he was also an instructor for the shop. He would coach part time, do shop part time, and was also the health instructor. So everybody had part time jobs. I don't think of any teacher that had a single job. They always had combination of jobs. We had the basketball team. That was really an outlet for our high school days, because you were like the upper class. Everybody looked up to you. And especially if you had a home game. But then we had to travel. We would leave school, say on Thursday, and have games on Thursday and Friday. Maybe in Richmond, Lynchburg, Clifton Forge, and then back around. We would be gone for about two or three days. And we would go in the coach's car, and one other car, whoever the other driver would be. And we would miss school those two days. And I don't know how much they paid the coaches to travel that distance, but they seemed to enjoy it. But then we would stay in private homes. And by the time we got back on Saturday morning, all of the parents was looking for us. And we had to tell them what kind of experience that we had. And believe me, it wasn't any experience. You would eat in the school cafeteria. And from the cafeteria, you go upstairs and practice and then you have a game. And then whoever you was staying with would be right there to pick you up to take you to their house. And you spent the night twisting and turning. You didn't know what the heck to expect, you know. We was always glad to get back on the road the next morning to go somewhere else. [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 9 �Avery Chandler 27:13 Was it uncomfortable or awkward for you to stay in people's private homes while you were away traveling for games? Lowell Toliver 27:19 Uncomfortable, very uncomfortable. But then those days you couldn't stay nowhere else. Avery Chandler 27:31 Did the people who took you in nice? Were they very accepting? Lowell Toliver 27:35 They were really a friendly bunch of people. And to this day a lot of us (I guess all of my contacts are dead) kept in touch with people during the years. And whenever we'd go to someplace like Richmond or Roanoke we'd always look them up and we always felt welcome. Avery Chandler 28:07 Were you any good at basketball? Or was it just really fun for you to play? Lowell Toliver 28:11 You know I was good [laughs]! The only problem was I just didn't make it into the NBA [laughs]. Average. Incidentally, there should be a picture there at Simms hanging on the wall somewheres of our team. And I was in the picture. Incidently, I was number 30. And it's been published quite a few times [unclear]. Avery Chandler 28:52 What position did you play when you played basketball? Lowell Toliver 28:56 I was a guard. And, actually, we didn't have any set positions because you just played wherever you got the ball at the time. We had set plays, but we didn't stick to them. You have to remember we were high school kids, 15, 16, 17 years old. Basketball was entirely different than what it is now. Our whole gym would be half court to what a professional court is right now in the NBA. And believe me, we had one of the better gyms in the whole valley. [unclear] compared to Charlottesville, because they played in a little building outside. And Waynesboro, I can't remember what kind of building it was. But all our activities was within the school itself. Avery Chandler 30:25 And what was that gym and facility like? What do you remember? What do you remember hearing in the gym? seeing in the gym? Lowell Toliver 30:34 I can remember trying to figure out why they put the baskteball backboard so close to the wall and not have pads. We had radiators in front of the basket backboard. And if you run into it? You'd hit a brick wall. I mean, it was just one of those things where they had some space and [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 10 �they said, 'Oh, we'll make this a gym, an auditorium,' and whatever else they need it for. It wasn't made for a gym, as gyms are today. But we learned how to use what we had and we was very happy that we had what we had, because there were places down the road that didn't even have a school. I know in Luray, Virginia, they played basketball outside, on the side of the hill on dirt. That was their court. So we were really fortunate to have something like that. And we appreciated it. Avery Chandler 32:02 Do you remember playing with Don Burgess? Lowell Toliver 32:06 Whoa. No. [Laughter.] Now, you're talking about maybe 40 years difference. Oh, incidentally, bring it back when you said I remember playing with Don Burgess. No, I don't. He was much younger than me. We had to contend with World War II veterans that came back that did not finish high school. And they could come back and get their, I was going to say college, their high school diploma after they had served in World War II. So we had a few of the older players that were veterans. I mean, they were men returning from World War II. And they played basketball with us. So whenever they would come in, men older and more worldly individuals, then they usually took over the gym. And they played much better than the younger kids. Avery Chandler 33:25 So were they intimidating, those veterans that came in there looking all muscular? Lowell Toliver 33:31 You know, I can't ever remember them. They played with us on the home games. But if we had anything like a tournament, they didn't play. I'm trying to figure it out. I can't figure it out so I'm not going to try to. So they had to be at least three or four years older than the ones that were there. Well, I graduated when I was 17. And I left Harrisonburg at 17 and a half. I went into the military. You didn't hang around after you got out of high school because we couldn't. Well, if I wanted to go, the only place I could go to was Virginia State and Elizabeth City. Our superintendent [William Hampton] Keister had worked a deal out with those two colleges, that they would accept students from Simms into their college program. Any other college, any other HBCU, you had to go to school for a whole year to get a high school diploma, because our eleven grades wasn't a high school education. Avery Chandler 35:16 So you said you graduated in 1952. After that you did join the military. I remember you saying that. But what were your years like after attending the Simms School and after you graduated? Lowell Toliver 35:27 I graduated in '52. I left in '52. I went in the military in '52. I didn't have any downtime in Harrisonburg after I graduated. Avery Chandler 35:44 [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 11 �So you went straight to war. I believe you said you fought in the Korean War, correct? Lowell Toliver 35:49 Correct. Incidentally, my parents had to sign for me to go in. Well, the majority of the kids that graduated then, and when I say the majority, we had a real large graduating class, which was six. Did you hear me? Avery Chandler 36:13 No, say that again. Lowell Toliver 36:15 We had a large class that graduated that year. It was six. Avery Chandler 36:21 Oh! So, you only graduated with six people? With five other people, I guess. Lowell Toliver 36:27 [Laughs]. It's been a long time, you know, getting there, but once I graduated and got my diploma and whatever, my mother and father signed for me to join the military. So I joined the military and after three years and two days in the military, I got out. But before I went to the military, you couldn't get a job in Harrisonburg. You almost had to wait until somebody died to get a job. And that would be like as a porter at one of the hotels, or a waiter, or a chauffeur. And that that was it. That was it. So there wasn't any vacancies around for young black kids other than the military. And then the military wasn't the best place in the world either because it wasn't too easy there [laughter]. Avery Chandler 37:50 What was your experience like in the military? Lowell Toliver 37:54 Well, like I said, I went to a joint, I went to Alexander. I got on a Greyhound bus in Harrisonburg on Wolfe Street, and went to get my physical and to be inducted in the army in Alexander, Virginia. From Alexander, Virginia, I went to Fort Meade, Arkansas, Fort Meade, Maryland. And I was there long enough to get a suit of clothes and on a plane the next night to Camp Chaffee, Arkansas. I'd never even knew it was in Arkansas. And it was cold. And I called my mother and father. I never will forget it and I said, "Daddy, I want to come home." "There's nothing I can do for you boy. You got it, you asked for it and you got it." Then I had about 12 weeks of training at Camp Chaffee, Arkansas, and I got orders to go to FECON [Far East Command, U.S. Deptartment of Defense]. I didn't know what FECON was. And I'm in Camp Chaffee. What's the name of the town in Arkansas? Anyway, I got a plane ticket. They gave me a plane ticket back and said, "So, where do you want to go to?" And being from Harrisonburg, the closest big town that I knew was Charleston, Charles Town, West Virginia. And that was close to Washington. So I knew I could get transportation. I'd have my brother, sister, somebody pick me up in Charleston, Charles Town. So I said Charles Town, and they wrote the ticket down Charleston, [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 12 �West Virginia. Do you know how far Charleston, West Virginia is from Charles Town? From Harrisonburg? Avery Chandler 40:08 No. About how long is it? Lowell Toliver 40:09 Oh, it's a long ways. I got home. I had a four day delay enroute on the troop train. I was at home and said hello, goodbye, and showed him my uniform. And it was a guy going back to Fort Lee, Virginia. And he dropped me off at a nice little airport. And I flew to St. Louis and caught the troop train and from there to Fort Lewis, Washington. And Fort Lewis, Washington. I found out FECON was in the Far East. And there was 150 of us in the unit. And 149 went to FECON, and one went to Camp Lee, Virginia. Oh, man, I wanted to go there so bad. But anyway, ended up in Fort Lewis, Washington, stayed there for about a day and got on the ship and off to Korea. Was on the boat for 22 days going over and went to.... Stopped in Japan and then to Inchon, [South] Korea. And that was it. Owen Longacre 41:32 Mr. Toliver, this is Mr. Longacre again, I wanted to just pop in for a question. It sounds like you had quite a life and a career in between your graduation from the Simms School and when it actually closed in 1966. And I just wanted to ask, I know it was 14 years apart, but when the Simms School officially closed, even though you might not have lived in Harrisonburg, did you have any parents or family in the area? And do you remember any reactions to the Simms School closing and maybe what that meant for the surrounding community, even though you might not have been living there yourself? Lowell Toliver 42:15 I may have this all wrong. But I'm thinking the closing of the Simms School and the redevelopment was all at the same time. Owen Longacre 42:24 You're correct, it was. Lowell Toliver 42:27 And that was, excuse the expression, that was a shock to the black neighborhood. Because I remember, very few people in the black community knew what was going on then. There was only a couple of people. And the majority of the blacks didn't know what was going on with this redevelopment, because we had just built... Well, the house was around about maybe 10 to 15 years old. And my mother and father scraped and begged and worked and built that and we had a comfortable house that we lived in on Mason Street. And then when I came back and they said, well, they have redevelopment. They had torn down all the old parts. Well, they said.... How did they put that? "The blighted area of Harrisonburg." And our house wasn't blighted. It was probably one of the newest built houses in that whole neighborhood. But they didn't have any choice. They voted it [unclear] eminent domain. And that meant you either took what they [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 13 �was going to give you or you was gonna end up losing more money fighting it. But anyway, after the redevelopment and the closing of the school, it seems like the kids that went to Harrisonburg High, they really wasn't accepted out there at first and it was a rough turnover between leaving Simms, being all black, and going to an all white school, which didn't change. That meant the kids had to change. Now I'm coming back from the military, and I knew you was gonna have to change. But the majority of the kids around there, that when they went to Harrisonburg High, they accepted it was for the good because they got a better education. At Simms, you was limited to where you could go. Owen Longacre 45:03 Mr. Toliver, we've talked in class about some of the unintended consequences of the desegregation process. And it seems to me that's part of what I'm hearing in your story is that not all of it might have been positive. Even though there, even though integration was something that most people seemed to want. Did you feel like that's a fair characterization? Lowell Toliver 45:29 That is true. That is, I can remember that whenever we would have a program, we'd always get hand-me-down stuff from the school board. Now, you learned how to deal with it. The teachers during my time in school, they accepted that, and they knew they wasn't gone to get anything any better. And they wouldn't get anything else. So they have to use what they have. And I'm talking about school books and desks. I can remember in first and second grade, we had tables, which the names were, you could see where they had been carved in. And then when I got to third, fourth, and fifth grade, there was actual desks. And they were in terrible condition. I mean, you just couldn't describe it. But they were better than what we had because we had nothing. I think through the years, the supply system got better, or it had to get better, couldn't get any worse. And it was just like books! We would get books, we'd have to buy books from the school system. And you had to have those books on your first day of class. And the only way for you to get them was to buy the used books from whatever system that they had. There in the city of Harrisonburg. My biggest fault is Superintendent Keister. We had a principal which was W. N. P Harris. He was against everything like that. I mean, but he knew he couldn't win the battle by himself. So if you needed a desk, so if you got a desk with a name carved in it or with all kinds of... Everything. I mean, you can't think about how bad some of the conditions were. Owen Longacre 48:08 Is it fair to say that most community members in the Harrisburg area would have reacted positively to the integration process? Or was it more complicated than that? And with the urban renewal that came along with it and pieces like that? Lowell Toliver 48:28 No, because we could walk to school. And everybody had a sense of community. Everybody looked out for each other, you know, and from what I understand, when they integrated the bus system, they had to walk to begin with, which was a long ways. From Simms School to Harrisonburg High was a long way. And there again, I don't know whether they had snow days or "I'm tired" days or whatever, you know, I just can't make it. But my wife talked to a cousin that [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 14 �was one of the first ones that went to Harrisonburg High. And some of the things that he said was terrible. We didn't have to put up with that at Simms. And they were spit on, throwed rocks, called names. When they got far enough away from school, they would throw rocks at them. And the kids from our neighborhood would have to run to survive. And there was no need in calling the police. They didn't do anything. It was a school problem. And I'm pretty sure it's not the same way now. I hope it's not [laughs]. Owen Longacre 50:14 It certainly sounds complicated. Lowell Toliver 50:16 I can remember my brother and sister. They were much older than me. And they could not believe that they was integrating the school almost overnight. I mean, there wasn't a warning or you know, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. It just happened. You know, you report to Harrisonburg High. And a lot of the parents just wasn't up for that. They had to work. They had to go to work in some of the homes where the kids who would walk would right past. So, that meant that they didn't know whether the kids were going to go to school, walk to school, or what. But they couldn't stop work to make sure that their the kids got to school. Actually, that was the downfall of the black neighborhood when they integrated the schools. That school. Harrisonburg High. Owen Longacre 51:39 Interesting. What do you mean by that? Lowell Toliver 51:43 Well, you knew just about all of the kids, they walked home together, they talked together. And there again, there was this redevelopment. That we had our own little grocery stores, and restaurants, and pool halls, and places like that. And after that, all of that was gone and nobody seemed to care any. Let me give you a little example. We had a drowning and you can probably look this up in Harrisonburg Daily News Record. It was a black kid drowned in the Rock, we called it the Rock Quary [a rock quarry], which was on Depot Hill. We could not swim but in ponds and places like that. And we would always go to Bridgewater. The water was real low and you can walk through it. But then you'd get down and you go to the Rock Quaryto swim. Well, Happy Holly dived in. And when he dived in, he ended up on a rock that went right straight through his body. And all the rest of the kids that was there with him, they left, they ran. You know, something was going to happen. And they pumped that place for about two or three days before they found his body impaled in a rock. About two or three months or years, they gave us a swimming pool, which was about ten feet long, and about seven feet wide, and about five foot deep. It was nothing. But that was the only place that the kids had to go. And then everybody would just.... The kids went there for a couple of hours and they knew they were safe. But after that the redevelopment took that away.They took everything away that the black man was really comfortable with. Everything. Owen Longacre 54:33 [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 15 �It sounds to me that in a way you lost a lot of the pillars of your community that you had built there. Lowell Toliver 54:41 Yeah, let me give you another example. I was still just getting out of the army. We had to build a house up in called Newtown on Myrtle street. Which was 520 Myrtle Street. Which if I call the names, you'd recognize the house because he's really Ralph Sampson. Have you ever heard of him? Avery Chandler & Owen Longacre 55:16 [Simultaneously] Yes Lowell Toliver 55:17 Well, our house was there. And his parents, his grandparents live next door to us on Myrtle Street. In the process of them doing this redevelopment, they knocked down our house on Mason Street and set it afire. I could smell it burning. Now, I have a bitter outlook about Harrisonburg about that. There's a book that you should read: "Keeping up with Yesterday." I'll send you a copy of it. Owen Longacre 56:20 You said "Keeping up with Yesterday"? Lowell Toliver 56:23 Did you read that? Owen Longacre 56:24 I have not heard that book. Lowell Toliver 56:26 Oh, I'll send you a copy of it. You want to send it to the school or to your home? Owen Longacre 56:35 To the school would be fine. Lowell Toliver 56:36 Okay. That will give you an inward look of how people felt during the redevelopment and maybe about the integration of the high school. Owen Longacre 56:53 That would be great. That'd be a great resource. Lowell Toliver 56:56 Yeah. We had a community in Harrisonburg at one time. [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 16 �Owen Longacre 57:04 Right. Lowell Toliver 57:05 And everybody knew everybody. All the blacks knew everybody. And I don't ever remember seeing a sign... Well, let me take that back. I do. At the bus station, they had 'colored' and 'white'. And that was probably the only place that I ever saw a sign in Harrisonburg that said [that]. But we knew where we could go and where we couldn't go. So that was in the back of your mind all the time. And believe me, I had some real well, some of my best friends who were white [laughs]. I know you've heard of that term before. I had good white friends. And because we used to play together. Believe it or not, on Rock Street, we lived next door to a white family, which they would eat breakfast with us. My mother and father would fix breakfast for their family and us. And we would eat breakfast with their family on the days that they had to go to work early. So we had that interconnection. And I really, you know, like I said, and we played ball in the evenings when we come home from school, and in and out each other's house. But now like I told my kids, "Hey, you can't go to certain places." I remember when we was coming through Harrisonburg at McDonald's where McDonald's was in second grade, you could not eat at McDonald's, out in Virginia. And my kids were just young and they couldn't understand that. And it's just little things like that. And now they are up in age now. Sixity and sixty-five. So they look at it and say "Now Daddy, I know what you were talking about." Owen Longacre 59:26 Right. Lowell Toliver 59:28 But it wasn't easy after integration, as far as I'm concerned. Things got tougher. He was supposed to compete with people that you didn't have to compete against. And, like the only jobs that you could get was in a hotel. And believe me, the people that had those jobs, they weren't going nowhere because they paid good money. So you didn't have anything. My father... [laughs]... I better not tell you this one. But when he ran... [talks to someone off mic] Like I said, I got bitter things about Harrisonburg. Owen Longacre 1:00:25 Sure. Well, I certainly understand it's complicated. And I hear in your voice how much the Simms School meant for that community in particular. Lowell Toliver 1:00:40 Let me give you a little quote from W. N. P Harris. Owen Longacre 1:00:43 Sure. Lowell Toliver 1:00:45 [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 17 �You ought to look up his credentials. He was quite a scholar. I don't even deemed to carry his hat. But he had a quote, and I picked it up. "A little learning is a dangerous thing. Drink deep or [thirst] not [of] the [Pierian] spring." And it never dawned on me until I got older. And I said, "He really knew what he was talking about." And he always would try to get the best out of us. If he had to take you into his office and sit you down and teach you who was the president in 1915. He was just that kind of individual. And after that, we lost all of that. I could probably tell you who the President was and..and what happened on.... Oh, incidentally, you know, today is Black History Week! I mean month! Or this one is! Owen Longacre 1:02:14 That's right. Lowell Toliver 1:02:16 When I was going to school, we had black history week. And that was where you had to always have a quote from someone that was a famous black individual. But I see Harrisonburg is making a strive for the better. But until they get rid of the old people in Harrisonburg, cecause they turned the Simms School into.... I don't know what it was when it first opened up, but it wasn't a center for the.... I don't know what it was. It was a place for people that just didn't, couldn't get along. Owen Longacre 1:03:18 I believe now it's a center for continuing education and a community center for events in other capacities. So it has changed probably a quite a bit since it first opened. Lowell Toliver 1:03:32 I can remember for now. In the later years, they even gave us a baseball ground. A court. All we had was a set of swings. And that was it. Owen Longacre 1:04:13 Sorry, Mr. Toliver. Are you still there? Lowell Toliver 1:04:15 Yeah, I'm still here. Owen Longacre 1:04:16 Oh, I'm sorry. I think we might have lost it just for half a second. Well as we just think about the school, I wanted to just offer you is there any other memories about school in particular or the role it played in the community that you feel like we didn't get a chance to talk about this afternoon? Lowell Toliver 1:04:36 At the school, I always remember there was a connection, the community, was Memorial Day and then the last day of school. Because on the Sunday, we had a little program at the cemetery and then we walked across and had another little program at the school, and that was the end [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 18 �of the school year. So you knew everything. But that was more or less a community thing. And everybody participated in that. But we didn't have any organized sports, per say. Because we didn't have the equipment, like gymnastics or anything like that. We had a couple of mats that they threw out on the floor where you could do a flip [laughs]. And that was the extent of our gymnastics. I think somebody had the right idea, but it just took a little time to take effect. Owen Longacre 1:06:00 Sure. And I guess that no matter how old you get the Simms School is always a part of you in some way. Lowell Toliver 1:06:07 It was a part of me until they start turning it into different things. Owen Longacre 1:06:15 Right. Lowell Toliver 1:06:16 And what got me was they could have easily kept it a high school there in that community. The kids could walk to school. There wasn't any... I can't ever remember a drug problem in our school. And now I know down here, they're just going out of control. And it's the younger generation. I think the worst thing we did when we grew up was we would smoke. They had cigars that would fall off the trees [laughs]. And you'd get sick behind the smoke, you know. So you never tried that, you know. So, as far as smoking weed and all of the drug problems that you have in the school system. I don't know if Harrisonburg has got it yet. But if they don't, it's on its way. Owen Longacre 1:07:33 Yeah. No, it's certainly not a perfect world anymore. Lowell Toliver 1:07:37 No, and in the old community that we had, you wouldn't dare do anything like that. Because everybody knew everybody. And, I don't know. When I tell my kids... They talking about they graduated from a class of 200 and 300. And I say Yeah, well, you're lucky. I graduated with six in my class. [Laughter] Owen Longacre 1:08:11 Yeah. Lowell Toliver 1:08:12 And they thought... I didn't tell them how many was in the class until eventually they saw a picture [laughs]. Avery Chandler 1:08:25 [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 19 �Well, this has been a great experience to talk with you Mr. Toliver. I've really appreciated and loved hearing what you've had to say and how you've shared your experience with us. Lowell Toliver 1:08:36 I probably have many more but I just can't... You know, the older you get, the more you lose them. And you only stick with the bitter things. And I don't think I should do that. Because I'd like to be more negative, I mean more positive than negative. Avery Chandler & Owen Longacre 1:08:55 [Speaking simultaneously] Right. Yeah. Lowell Toliver 1:08:57 Because you get nowhere being negative. And I see a great improvement in Harrisonburg by being away from it. But then talking to several people: The reason why they left was because of redevelopment. And when you start thinking about redevelopment and how it was done in Harrisonburg, it's ridiculous. But that's one of the things that I think a few of the people are trying to correct down there now. A few. Not many. But it's going to take a good education for these kids to outgrow it. Owen Longacre 1:09:51 Well, I think hearing from individuals like you and the students' participation in a project like this is a small step, but a step towards maybe learning from our past and in trying to correct some of those wrongs that have happened in the past. Lowell Toliver 1:10:12 You know, I think somebody that should really get some flowers or whatever is W. N. P. Harris. He was the principal of the school, of Simms. And he and the superintendent of schools just could not get along. First of all, Ruth Hollins made an impression on me. Miss Jean Francis, and W.N.P Harris. Those are the three individuals that I would consider that I look up to. Owen Longacre 1:10:58 Well, thank you, we certainly have those names. We certainly have the recording here. I'm gonna go ahead and stop the recording. [Lowell Toliver – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lowell Toliver https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/simms/files/original/Simms School Oral Histories/Interview_with_Dr._Sheary_Johnson.pdf cce491202d52ebba1d393b47ad93e4c3 PDF Text Text Interview with Dr. Sheary Johnson Lucy F. Simms School Oral History Project Interview status: Open to the Public Name of interviewee: Dr. Sheary Johnson Name of interviewers: Emily Hernandez Alvarado and Owen Longacre Date of interview:Feb 15, 2023 Duration of interview:00:57:01 Place of interview: Simms Center Language of interview: English Interview with Dr. Sheary Johnson Owen Longacre 00:00 Alright, and so we are officially recording. My name is Owen Longacre. The date is February 15th. It is 3:29 at the start of our interview with Dr. Sheary Johnson. Dr. Johnson, do you consent to this recording and the following interview? Dr. Sheary Johnson 00:18 Yes, I do. Owen Longacre 00:20 Perfect. Then at this case, we will go ahead and get started. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 00:25 All right. Hi, my name is Emily Hernandez. It is February 15th. So today, we are here to get to know you. We weren't able to meet you our last time that we were scheduled to interview so, if you wouldn't mind just saying a little bit about yourself, a little bit of what you do, just to get to know you a little bit. Dr. Sheary Johnson 00:47 Okay. I'm Dr. Sheary Johnson. I am a retired educator who's still teaching full time--different things to different people. I'm in full-time ministry now, but I was a librarian in elementary and high school. And I've taught students who wanted to become librarians at VCU. That was my career. But now I'm full-time ministry and I'm excited to be able to share with you about some of my experiences. [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 1 �Emely Hernandez Alvarado 01:37 Okay, we're glad you're excited as well. So, can you tell us about any of your experiences from Lucy Simms? We know that you did attend eventually Harrisonburg, but we'd like to know, from what you remember what was Lucy Simms like to you? Dr. Sheary Johnson 01:55 Lucy Simms was a good place to go to school in my elementary experience. I had very good elementary teachers. They were very serious about students giving their best and giving their all. I remember learning a lot of things. But it wasn't just in the classroom that we were learning. They did a lot of what we consider extracurricular activities with us. I remember the musicals and the choir. Especially at holidays. We would do a lot of things around the holidays. Christmas, May Day. May Day was a big occasion. In fact, former students came from all around for May Day. Have you all heard of May Day? Emely Hernandez Alvarado 03:03 Yes, we did speak with Tom to learn a little bit about May Day when we did go to Lucy Simms. But if you have any personal experiences with that day, if you wouldn't mind sharing them. Dr. Sheary Johnson 03:14 Well, I liked May Day because it was a full day in the spring. We were all outside and we learned how to wrap the maypole. I liked doing that, wrapping the maypole. That was an honor because they would choose people to be able to do that. Then they'd have a lot of games and other activities and food. It was just a great day of celebration that was planned by the school for the coming of spring, for the arrival of spring. Owen Longacre 04:00 Dr. Johnson I wanted to add to that. We talked a lot about May Day when we did our research on the Simms project, using the website, but we also knew about May Day because I wanted to communicate to you did you know that the Harrisonburg City Public School's Waterman Elementary actually still celebrates May Day? Dr. Sheary Johnson 04:20 Oh, it does? Oh! Owen Longacre 04:22 Yes. And the reason I knew that was my wife is actually a second-grade teacher over at Waterman and she's been there for almost ten years, and we've always done the May Day celebration. It wasn't until we started this project that we realized that was a tradition that actually carried over from the Simms School and it was carried over by one of the teachers there, Mary Awkard. Dr. Sheary Johnson 04:47 Yes. [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 2 �Owen Longacre 04:48 When she was hired there. So there's--some of the traditions and the legacies from the Simms School are still living on in our community. Dr. Sheary Johnson 04:55 Well, that's good. Now, Miss Awkard--well, she did get married and her married name was Fairfax. Mrs. Fairfax was very instrumental in my life, not only at the Simms School but after I graduated from Madison and went to work. My first job as a librarian was at Waterman Elementary School. Owen Longacre 05:30 Oh, no kidding. Dr. Sheary Johnson 05:31 At Waterman Elementary School and Mrs. Fairfax was, I believe, the second grade teacher there. She really went from the role of being a teacher and a mentor to being a friend. She showed me how to make watermelon pickles [note: Dr. Johnson later shared that she meant to say 'cucumber pickles'], [laughs]. I used to give her rides back and forth to work after I started working at Waterman and so we became great friends. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 06:13 So along with Miss Fairfax—wait, if you don't mind, what are watermelon pickles? Dr. Sheary Johnson 06:27 What are watermelon pickles? Emely Hernandez Alvarado 06:29 Yeah. Dr. Sheary Johnson 06:30 They're pickles made out of cucumbers. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 06:33 Pickles made out of cucumbers? So it—does it go through the same process of like pickling cucumbers? Dr. Sheary Johnson 06:40 Yes. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 06:41 Okay, that sounds interesting. Along with Miss Fairfax, is there anyone that you'd say you'd have, you also had a strong relationship with at school, whether that be friends or another teacher that you could've considered a mentor? [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 3 �Dr. Sheary Johnson 06:58 Another teacher that I especially remember is Miss Barbara Blakey. Miss Blakey taught typing. She was a business teacher and she taught typing. I valued the lessons and experiences that I learned because typing helped me get through college. That's how I earned money. Because I could type—I was typing over 60 words a minute—because I could type I was able to get a job on campus at JMU, which helped give me spending money and helped make ends meet while I was on campus there. In the summertime, I used to get a job at the University of Virginia Hospital in Charlottesville, using my typing skills and transcribing the doctor's notes for the records there. So, typing was very—I was so glad that I had taken that class, and that she had taught it so well, that I was able to use that skill. Owen Longacre 08:27 And just for reference, can you explain to us what ages you would have attended the Simms School? And maybe what years, if you can remember specifically when that might have been? Dr. Sheary Johnson 08:40 Well, I started Simms when I was six. I couldn't go when I was five because my birthday came after the first of October. So you had to wait another whole year to go to school. When I started school, I was six years old, and I started at Simms School. It was first grade there and then I stayed there until the 10th grade. I went to Harrisonburg High School, the 10th. I think I was about 15 when I changed schools. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 09:41 Okay, yeah. So, from the stories that you have been telling us about those two people, would you say that Simms impacted you and pushed you to pursue the career you went into today? Dr. Sheary Johnson 10:01 I would say that indirectly, they prepared me to choose the career that I chose. And the reason I say that is because, a lot of the time, I finished the work that my teachers had for us--for the class--I finished early. So they would send me to the library a lot of the time. I spent a whole lot of time in the library and I would help the librarian do different things. I guess it was during those times that I achieved the love for library work. Even when the librarian went out on pregnancy leave, they did not get a substitute for her. I carried on the work that needed to be done during that time frame. Even to the point of ordering books. That was an awesome experience, to spend the money to buy the books for the library during that time. So I had a lot of experiences there. Maybe not planned, but that turned out to be something that was of value to me. And so when I went to Harrisonburg High School, I did join the library club there. Then I, eventually, got a job as a page at the public library in downtown Harrisonburg. By then, I had quite a bit of experience with libraries and knew well that I would like to do that when I went to Madison. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 12:13 Okay. Owen Longacre 12:15 [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 4 �Mind, if I ask? You, you mentioned a couple teachers, Miss Blakey, Miss Awkard. Do you remember the name of the librarian that seemed to help maybe navigate your path a little bit? Dr. Sheary Johnson 12:30 I want to say Miss Bates. Owen Longacre 12:33 Bates? Dr. Sheary Johnson 12:34 Mm-hmm. [confirming] Owen Longacre 12:36 And, and just thinking about those three teachers, how would you describe the staff at the Simms School? And what you remember in terms of expectations and the environment that they set up for you as a student? How did, how did those teachers maybe impact the lives of their students, and what was that environment like there at the school? Dr. Sheary Johnson 13:03 The elementary and some of the high school teachers—theythey were very dedicated and had a firm hand on the students. They weren't afraid of the students at all. If if somebody needed to be corrected, they would correct them. They were very serious about children giving their best. They wanted to get the best out of the children. The expectations were high. It wasn't until I was in the high school part that I did run into some teachers who were not as focused. And unfortunately, those subjects were serious subjects. So I realized that I needed to change environments if I was going to get out of school what I needed to get out of school for my future. At that point I talked with my parents, and they decided to go to the school board and ask if we could change schools. They asked for me, if I could change schools. Then, when they granted the permission, some other parents wanted their children to change too. So there were six of us who integrated Harrisonburg High School. Owen Longacre 14:59 Do you know what year that would have been? Dr. Sheary Johnson 15:03 I graduated in '66, so that would have been probably '64. Owen Longacre 15:10 Interesting. I did not know that. So you transferred in 10th grade you said, so you possibly could have graduated from the Simms School, but you chose to go to Harrisonburg. I did not know that. Dr. Sheary Johnson 15:28 [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 5 �No, they had not integrated at the time that I graduated, but after I graduated from high school, the total integration came. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 15:43 Okay, so we know that—oh, sorry. Along with spending your time at the library, was there any other things—oh,whether it was a different class or just another activity—oh,that you enjoyed doing at Simms? Dr. Sheary Johnson 16:00 At Simms? [pause] The choir. I remember Mr. Moore was the choir director and Miss Fairfax played. She was the pianist. Owen Longacre 16:19 That's right, I remember hearing that. Dr. Sheary Johnson 16:21 Yes. We did a lot of songs, a lot of music—classical music, all genres of music—we sang. And the Christmas songs. Those stick out in my mind. In fact, that's one thing that I wish that our youth today could experience more of—those those holiday songs that we had. Of course, today they don't really sing the sacred music in schools much, but we used to do the sacred Christmas songs as well. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 17:12 So were you part of the Operettas? I know that was one of the singing groups that they had there as well. Dr. Sheary Johnson 17:20 The Operettas? I don't remember that name. But I did sing in the choir. Maybe that was something that happened later. I'm not sure. Owen Longacre 17:39 Did that choir travel around or anything? Or was that mostly within the school building? Dr. Sheary Johnson 17:44 It was mostly within the school, that particular choir. We did extra programs at night and on the weekend or something like that. But I don't remember us traveling much with the Simms choir. We traveled some with the Harrisonburg High School choir. And then I traveled in my choir with Madison. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 18:18 Alright. I know we already asked you if you had any specific friends or anything, but what I want to know is how was the environment in your classrooms? Specifically with the students there and your friends that you had? What was it like, if you remember? What was it like—like a school day? If you can run down like a school day that you had. [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 6 �Dr. Sheary Johnson 18:48 Like a school day? Emely Hernandez Alvarado 18:49 Yeah. Dr. Sheary Johnson 18:51 Oh, I can remember coming in in the morning and the first thing we'd do, of course, you would have your attendance. We would have, over the loudspeaker, we would have the Pledge of Allegiance. We used to do the Lord's Prayer. In fact, I remember there used to be a religious group that would come in and teach us Bible lessons. After a while, there was a trailer that they would bring that would be there beside the school, and then we would go out to the trailer for the Bible lessons. I don't know—it might have been something that happened as far as the change in the religion in school, and all of that, that made that change necessary for them to be able to still do what they did, but that's just a memory. That was a very valuable thing for me because even though my father's a pastor, and I've been in lots of study groups and things, I still feel like that has served me well over the years because part of that program was memorizing Bible scriptures. You memorize so many scriptures and get a prize, memorize so many more scriptures get another prize. And I kept on doing that. The highest was if you remembered 300 scriptures, you would get to go to camp for a week. So my goal was to go to camp. That was awesome. They had a great camp over near Culpeper. We would go and stay the whole week. That experience was one that happened there at the school. But anyway, you asked me what a typical day was like. After the devotional part, the teacher would collect our lunch money because we had to pay for lunch. She would collect the lunch money and then we'd go into our lessons. Like I said, the elementary teachers really had their lesson plans and their schedule that they kept and so we worked until it was time for lunch. Then after lunch—the lunches were really very good. The cooks fixed homemade meals. They were better than I've seen [phone ringing loudly in background] most school lunches today. We had homemade meals for lunch. [phone continues to ring, caller ID annoucement] We had recess, going outside and playing ball. Different ball games, like baseball, kickball, volleyball, you know— Owen Longacre 22:44 Which one of those sports did you play? Well, let's say it this way. Whenever they were picking the teams, I was the last one they would pick. [All laughing] So choir was more your speciality. Dr. Sheary Johnson 22:59 [laughing] Right. Owen Longacre 23:02 Well, you've mentioned so many things that happened outside of the building with extracurriculars. Yyou've mentioned some nightly performances from the choir. I wanted to take a moment maybe just to ask about how did the Simms School serve a role in the community at large? And was it seen as a center for the for the Newtown community? Did they have [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 7 �community events at the school? How did the school also serve the larger confines of the Harrisonburg community? Dr. Sheary Johnson 23:42 I believe the school was more like the center—it was at the center of the community. It would have the games and things. People would look forward to that and come back to that. Homecoming. I believe that people enjoyed coming back to the high school and having things. In fact, it was about the only place other than church. It was about the only place you could have something. [The only way to] have an event of any kind would be to use the school. Owen Longacre 24:33 You mentioned it's the only place. Can can you elaborate on that a little bit? Dr. Sheary Johnson 24:37 When I say the only place... When I grew up, all African Americans sort of stayed on one side of town, on the—you know where Gay Street or—well, it's still on the same side where Waterman is but it didn't go up as far as Waterman school. It didn't go past... I guess that's Main Street? It didn't go past Main Street. So the Blacks had... Whenever they did anything it was within the community. The Black community was from Gay Street going over to Johnston Street, over in that area. In that time—I don't know what's there now—but during that time, there wasn't anything in that area that you could have a function in other than a church or the school. Owen Longacre 25:59 We have spent time looking at some older maps of Harrisonburg and talking about that division. I was interested to see if that's similar to your experience and it sounds like, of course, that would be. So I want to transition, and you talked about leaving—eventually, that you did leave the Simms school, and that maybe, I wanted to ask, was it your choice and your initiative to eventually leave the Simms school in your high school years? Or was that something that was pushed from your parents? And if it was your decision, how did your parents feel about that when that went on? And how did they react to that decision? Dr. Sheary Johnson 26:44 Well, it was my choice. Something happened as far as... One of the valedictorians from the Simms school went to Virginia State and she ended up taking remedial classes before she could get into her regular classes. When when I found that out, I thought that should not have happened, in my opinion. Because if you're at the top of your class—of your high school class—you should be able to go to a college and at least go in regular classes if not classes that were extra hard. The other thing was a couple of the teachers that I had in high school at Simms allowed the students to get them off the subject and the whole period, they'd be talking about sports, basketball games, football games, and it wasn't a gym class. It wasn't a PE class. Well, that was not good. So, just a couple things were happening that let me know that I needed to go somewhere where education was treated more seriously. The other thing that I was aware of was that we didn't have new books. We would get the old books from the high school. They would get brand new books and give us the old books. Well, that meant we were studying from [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 8 �old information. Some information was probably going to be about the same, but others—like science and courses like that—the information changes and you need to have up-to-date materials. Our teachers basically did extra things for us out of their own pockets. The teachers that we had were dedicated to doing extra things for us, but as far as funds, they had to pay for it themselves. So, all of that together, I sat down with my parents and just explained to them that I thought that I needed to go somewhere else to school. So then my father and mother went to the school board and asked if I could go to the high school— [computer alert noise] Harrisonburg High. Owen Longacre 30:25 That must have been a tough decision at the time and something unique at the moment. How did your friends at the Simms School—did they have any reaction to thinking about you leaving and going somewhere else? Dr. Sheary Johnson 30:47 Well, since five of them also left at the same time, I guess they could see why I wanted to go and decided they wanted to go as well. Or their parents decided. I don't know exactly how it was with them—who actually made the decision—but I'm sure that the student was involved in the decision making. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 31:30 So once you got to Harrisonburg, were the changes that you were expecting noticeable? How were the teachers different or students different from Simms? Dr. Sheary Johnson 31:42 I would say the changes were noticeable [laughs]. The subject matter was a lot harder. The demands for learning—I was in the college bound classes—the demands were a lot stiffer. But I needed that. I needed to be ready to move forward academically. So it was worthwhile doing. Owen Longacre 32:19 You seem like a very motivated person, very self-guided in a way. Did the other five classmates that came with you, did you feel like they had similar experiences at Harrisonburg? Or, was your experience similar in any ways? Or did you feel like maybe everybody had a different experience? Dr. Sheary Johnson 32:41 I found out years later—many years later—that their experiences were not remembered as fondly as I remembered mine. I kind of moved in a different track, so to speak, by being in college bound classes, by being in the operettas and the extra... The kinds of things that I was involved in were different from the ones they were involved in. They were moving in another path. And, unfortunately, they had some experiences that were negative. And [both speaking—unclear] Emely Hernandez Alvarado 33:36 [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 9 �Sorry. Dr. Sheary Johnson 33:38 So that meant their memories were not as fond as my mine were of my time there. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 33:47 So, could you say, from your experiences, did you feel comfortable attending Harrisonburg? Did you have any negative experiences going there? Dr. Sheary Johnson 34:05 I really don't remember any that were that negative beyond... Well, everybody's not going to want to be your friend anyway. That's kind of the way I look at it. Even if I were in an all-Black environment, everybody's not going to want to be your friend. So when that happened in a white environment, you know, people think differently. However they think, that's the way they think. But then there were enough other people who welcomed me and befriended me that it really didn't matter. Owen Longacre 35:01 Can you describe what some of those circles were like where you felt the most comfortable in? Were there any particular teachers in Harrisonburg, or were you able to join the choir at the new Harrisonburg High School, or what are maybe some of your fondest memories of of your time there? Dr. Sheary Johnson 35:19 I did join the choir there. Miss Hackman was the choir director. The music was definitely one of the good memories that I still remember and reflect on. Again, the Christmas music and all of the extra activities that the choir had. I was in a special touring group with that choir. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 36:01 Along with joining choir again, were there any other groups you might have been part of whether it was like another club or maybe even just other friends that you shared experiences there with? Dr. Sheary Johnson 36:17 Other than music and the library club and—that was about it. [laughs] Emely Hernandez Alvarado 36:30 So in the end, did you like attending Harrisonburg? Dr. Sheary Johnson 36:35 Yes. It was a long walk, but it was worth it. I walked all the way from where Simms School is, in that community, all the way over to Harrisonburg High School, and that's not a short walk. Have you walked that far? Have you been between the two places? [laughing] [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 10 �Emely Hernandez Alvarado 37:03 I don't think I have. Owen Longacre 37:05 The previous school, not where Harrisonburg would currently be, but where I guess... It's now called Memorial Hall over at JMU. Dr. Sheary Johnson 37:14 Oh, okay. Owen Longacre 37:15 I believe that's the building we're talking about. Is that correct? Dr. Sheary Johnson 37:20 It wasn't the new building. They built another high school. Owen Longacre 37:27 Right. Dr. Sheary Johnson 37:28 That was Harrisonburg High School. The one that I graduated from was the old Harrisonburg High School. Owen Longacre 37:36 Right. I think it's called Memorial Hall now. Dr. Sheary Johnson 37:40 Okay. Owen Longacre 37:41 Just for reference for them and it's funny we're talking about that because they're now building a new new high school in Harrisonburg. Dr. Sheary Johnson 37:50 And where are they building that? Owen Longacre 37:52 It is on the south side of the city, and they're calling it Rocktown High. Dr. Sheary Johnson 37:58 Rocktown? Owen Longacre 37:59 [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 11 �Yeah. That was the name they came up with and it is slated to be finished, I believe in the fall of 2024. So they're in the process of building it, but the city is continuing to grow. Dr. Sheary Johnson 38:12 Alright. Owen Longacre 38:14 So we we know that eventually when you graduated Harrisonburg, you went on to enroll at James Madison University. Did, did that process happen immediately? And how did you—can you describe your process of how you ended up at JMU? And what that was like? Dr. Sheary Johnson 38:35 Since I wanted to be a librarian, I started looking for schools that had the library science program. In Virginia, Madison had it, Longwood, and Virginia State had the program. Of course, being from Harrisonburg, Madison was closest to me. So that's where I decided I'd like to go. I filled out the application for early admission, or at least for them to decide that I could come there. So in December of my senior year, I did receive my early acceptance to go to Madison and I went there. I graduated [high school] in in June of '66 and then in August, I went to Madison. Owen Longacre 39:56 Can you describe any of your emotions that you were feeling when you walked on campus for the first time and saw yourself as a college student there. Dr. Sheary Johnson 40:09 Ah, well, it's a large place. Not as large as it is now. [laughs] To me, walking on—it's a beautiful campus. I enjoyed just walking around around the campus, especially at sunset. It's a beautiful campus. I enjoyed being there. The teachers, the faculty there, were very supportive. They always had an open door. Whenever I wanted to go and discuss my work or anything, if I was having any issues or what have you. They were always willing to listen and give support. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 41:13 So, where was the change from being a librarian to studying to become a doctor [get a doctorate]? Was there anything or anyone that influenced you to change into that career? Dr. Sheary Johnson 41:29 Well, when I went for school to get my doctorate, I chose to go to the University of Virginia because of the technology. When I decided to go back to school to get my doctorate, I had gone through Madison. We'd had some AV classes, a couple of AV classes, but the schools were beginning to do more and more with technology. So I went to University of Virginia, because they had a degree in technology and I always wanted to work on a degree. I felt like, just to go and take courses, without being in a planned program, you would end up with just a lot of hours, but I wanted the most that I could get from the hours. And that could only happen if you were in a planned program. It was an extension of my job because as the library media specialist at [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 12 �Hopewell High School, I was in charge of the technology for the school. It was all in line with with my job that I had. [pause] I was not only interested in the technology, but how to combine the technology with learning. So, the fact that you had media—how was I going to help the teachers merge the media and the actual lesson plans together? That's what I was focusing on. Owen Longacre 43:49 So it sounds to me like in the years after Simms School, between going to Harrisburg and James Madison, that you did stay local in the Harrisonburg community for a fair amount of time. Was there a point that you then moved away? And do you currently live in Harrisonburg, or I [unclear] from the beginning of our meeting that you don't live locally anymore. Dr. Sheary Johnson 44:13 No. I worked at Waterman Elementary School for 10 years, and I was happy there and enjoyed it. My husband graduated from Madison in '74. Owen Longacre 44:29 Okay. Dr. Sheary Johnson 44:29 And he was not able to get the kind of job that he wanted to have, making the kind of money that he wanted to have as a family man. So he decided to come to Richmond and look for a job. And so he came to Richmond and he found a job, and I told him, well, I didn't want to move unless I had a job. Then I came to Richmond and spent a few days looking but didn't find anything right away. I went back home to Harrisonburg and received a call from Hopewell High School asking if I would come and work there as the head librarian. So, I did go to get a job at Hopewell High School. That fall in the fall of '78 we moved from Harrisonburg to Richmond, Virginia. And we've been here ever since. Owen Longacre 45:57 Thank you for explaining. The reason I was asking was, we know that the Simms School of course shut down in '66. That was a part of the desegregation process. I'm interested, in the years after that, I know you had already left and gone to Harrisonburg, but did you have any experience with how the closing of the Simms School might have impacted the community? We mentioned earlier that it was kind of maybe the heart or the center of that community. When that building in that place shut down, how did that impact everyone else who still, of course, was going to other schools, but not having that particular place? Did you have any experience with how that that might have had an impact? Dr. Sheary Johnson 46:47 Well, since a lot of things happened there, beyond the classroom experience, I think it had a very big impact on the community not having Simms School there, because for a long time it was closed. So that cut out the more cultural side of the community. If people wanted to do something, they needed to go outside of the community. Then you had problems with transportation and knowing what to do, where to go, all of that. Then those things became [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 13 �barriers. When people don't have positive things to do, then your crime rises, your—other negative things rise. And the community has changed a whole lot. Of course, I'm looking at it from visiting, not as from living there, now. But just visiting, I can see that a whole lot has changed. Owen Longacre 48:31 We've discussed a lot in our class about some of the unintended consequences of desegregation, and how there's always two sides to every story. I was interested, maybe if you could continue to elaborate maybe on what your opinion is about the fact that when the Simms School shut down, that it had maybe some of those unintended consequences, and— Dr. Sheary Johnson 48:57 I think it did, too, especially for Black children. Because when when they went to white schools, they no longer saw Black role models. Owen Longacre 49:10 Right. Dr. Sheary Johnson 49:11 At the high school—not like they did at Simms School—they didn't see Black role models. They also missed out on that person who really pushed them to do their best. It means a lot when an adult will push you to do your best. Children just kind of want to get by sometimes, and they don't really need to get by, they need to go on and do their best. But, there has to be somebody who is pushing them whether it's their mother, grandmother, teacher—somebody to do the pushing, because you've got to get that good talent that's inside of those individuals to come out. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 50:25 So once you went to Hopewell High School, did you feel the need to become that person for the students there? Did you make it a goal to push those students as well from the new school? Dr. Sheary Johnson 50:40 Yes, I did. And I still do that now. I'm a pusher. I'm a person who tries to encourage—motivate—others to reach their goals. Owen Longacre 51:00 Is it fair to say that, that might have been something instilled in you from your interaction with some of the teachers at the Simms School, even from your earliest days? Dr. Sheary Johnson 51:10 Yes, I believe I picked that up from them—from their spirit, the way they did things. The way they involved us. I have utilized that in my programs here in Richmond. I have a nonprofit, Better People Incorporated, in which I take inner-city children, and involve them in activities that [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 14 �they don't normally have, such as going to concerts, plays, going different places that they don't normally get to go, and meeting people. I think I picked that up from them as well. Emely Hernandez Alvarado 52:19 Including your nonprofit, is there anything else that you went on to do after JMU? Dr. Sheary Johnson 52:33 Well, I'm very active in church. When I left VCU full-time ministry, I kind of just focused on our local church. I'm also active at the state level and at the national level in our church. So I've just been busy doing those kinds of things and encouraging people in the community and working with individuals, as best I can. Owen Longacre 53:25 Well, we—we're getting close to the end in terms of our pre-created questions, but we've been, this has been wonderful kind of getting to know you and your story. A lot of what you said is near and dear to my heart as my wife is an educator and my mother is a librarian. So— Dr. Sheary Johnson 53:41 Oh, ok! Is she still a librarian? Owen Longacre 53:44 I kind of—and as a teacher myself. Dr. Sheary Johnson 53:47 Is just still working or is she retired? Owen Longacre 53:49 She just recently retired. She's about seventy years old now, so she's been retired for a few years, but—so I kind of grew up in that environment as well. I spent many days sitting around waiting for mom to finish up work and just reading a book and all that so—so I relate to a lot of what you've been talking about. So, as we come to a close, I just wanted to offer—was there anything else specific to the Simms School that you feel like we didn't get a chance to talk about in terms of memories of classmates or teachers or any special events? I know we've had a chance to talk about a lot of it, but wanted to offer if you had any final remarks or ideas that you feel like we might not have gotten a chance to get to. Dr. Sheary Johnson 54:41 Well, I know that at Simms School, children were bussed from all around the county, all around Harrisonburg to Simms School and some of them rode the bus for about an hour in the morning before getting to school, then have an hour to get back home. I just—I value, the fact that I did live in the city, and I could walk to school and be there in fifteen minutes and get home in fifteen minutes, but it was, it was a good experience for me up until the time I decided that I needed to do something different for academic reasons. To me that those are two different things, to have a nice environment, but academically, I needed more, and therefore I needed to be in another [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 15 �environment. And I'm glad to know that now that they are doing some things at Simms, community-wise, they're doing some things. That gives some positive activity in the community for the children to go to as they need to. Although I haven't seen it in operation, but I understand there is something going on there now. Owen Longacre 56:39 Oh, absolutely. Did you have any other questions? Emely Hernandez Alvarado 56:43 No, I think I got pretty much all the ones I wanted answered and heard way more than I was expecting to. Owen Longacre 56:49 Yeah. Dr. Sheary Johnson 56:50 Good. Owen Longacre 56:51 I'm going to go ahead and stop our recording. [Dr. Sheary Johnson – Lucy F. Simms School Oral Histories] 16 � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Sheary Johnson https://omeka.lib.jmu.edu/simms/files/original/The Mary Awkard Fairfax Collection/MAF0367a_celebration-of-life-booklet-for-john-f-johnson.pdf 32a174a484778e0ab926d75464cc33eb PDF Text Text Cefebration of tlie Life of Jolin :f. Jofinson sunrise January 10, 1920 'Jim" · ·Sunset - · June 17, 2003 Saturday, June 21, 2003 9:00A.M. St. Elizabeth R. C. Church 179 Hussa Street Linden, New Jersey �Obituary John F. Johnson went to be at home with the Lord on Tuesday evening, June 17, 2003. He was born to Ethel and Wade Johnson on January 10, 1920 in Bethesda, Maryland. As a child, his family moved to Bayonne, New Jersey where he resided for many years. In 1941, he met and married his wife of61 years. He worked at Kraft Foods Company in Hillside until his retirement after which he worked odd jobs for a while. John was a lover of boxing, baseball, football and all sports. He also collected and loved jazz. He was a faithful member of St. Elizabeth's Oiurch and served on the Usher Board, the Holy Name Society and the Encounter with Christ Group. He leaves to mourn him, his wife Mae Johnson of Linden, NJ; 1 daughter, Linda Johnson of Avenel, NJ; 6 grandchildren, 10 great grandchildren, 2 nephews, 1 niece and a host offriends. FILL NOT YOUR HEARTS WITH PAIN AND SORROW Fill not your hearts with pain and sorrow, Remember I've o Alt~ugh My going So N Becaus Under ·an1Zl"'n'l...lllm 'Tis hard to break the tender cord When love has bound the heart 'Tis hard, so hard to speak the words ''We must forever part." Dear loved one we have laid thee In thy peaceful crypts embrace But thy memory will be cherished When we see, in heaven, thy face. Lovingly and Sorrowfully, The Family i.\... 1· \ \ ,!tzorrow. ✓ he smiles rta hile. ··· 1-f and grief, 'i,en me relief 1:fer me, std to be. d/~k on with a smile 'llif!tw:tSJW~~ J .gone to rest for awhile. .flMlrlDildof each of you rts of all of you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Mary Awkard Fairfax Collection Description An account of the resource The Mary Awkard Fairfax Collection consists of over 500 items that were digitized to support the development and design of the 2022 exhibit, Celebrating the Life and Legacy of Mary Awkard Fairfax. The series consists of photographs and some historical documents from Mary Awkard Fairfax’s personal collection and her family’s papers (1939–2012), shared with the Celebrating Simms project by Mrs. Fairfax’s niece, Mary Ann Smith-Tucker. The Mary Awkard Fairfax Collection is a post-custodial collection, meaning that it consists entirely of digitized materials and that all original materials were returned to the custody of their original owners immediately after being digitized. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Celebrating Simms Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available JMU Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1939-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Celebration of Life Booklet for John F. Johnson Subject The topic of the resource Friends Tribute Description An account of the resource Celebration of life booklet for John F. Johnson with location, time, and color photograph of John in a purple collared shirt with glasses. Pages 2 and 3 of the booklet for the remembrance of John F. Johnson, containing the obituary and a poem called <i>Fill Not Your Hearts With Pain and Sorrow </i> Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Linden (Nj.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Saint Elizabeth R.C. Church Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Mary Ann Smith-Tucker Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available James Madison University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 21 2003 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Megan N. Medeiros (digitizer & annotator) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource records (documents) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">CC By-NC 4.0</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MAF0367 Friends Tribute